sctmom

Yaworski, I think you just lucky. I can't think of any clothing items I've bought with those problems even at Wal Mart or from online stores (where I can't do my own inspections until the item is delivered). I would suggest your Scouting associates find some extra time to try on items before purchasing and do a thorough in-store inspection. I know that will not catch everything, sometimes it takes a washing or some wearing to really catch the problems. I thought I did find an "inspector" piece of paper in the Scout pants I recently bought. Maybe someone doesn't like your council and sends all the rejects to you!

I know the scheduling is often a problem. When I first heard of doing training with self study, I thought "why don't they tell more people about this?". Then I realized if they advertised it, many people would do self study when they aren't good at self study. What bothers me are the people who know everything already so they don't have to get trained. I have recently attended a Pow Wow and Cub Leader training (2nd time in 2 years). The training was not very good in my opinion, but I still learned a few things -- how NOT to conduct training, why other adults were volunteers, which grocery store will donate snacks to your meeting. The Pow Wow was good. I had heard most of it before, but it reminded me of things I should look at again. Same way with reading the books. Things I didn't understand before, now make sense. Also, now that I have a better understanding of the scout program, I may learn something in training or from reading that will help me bump things up a notch on the quality level. I think most people on this board go to training. I'm not saying training answers everything. You can't expect the trainer to teach you everything you need to know in 6 hours about how to be a scout leader. Just my opinion.

For some schools "band" is a class with a grade. Bob White, Thanks for bringing up this subject. I think it is something all Scout leaders need to consider. Even adults will not attend if they feel they are not part of the group or contributing anything.

OGE, that's what I thought too. Bob White, did we understand correctly?

fboisseau, Actually I wasn't talking about what you posted. I don't remember anything about your son playing soccer. I was only commenting on Bob's original post, not about the boy who does sports and scouts. I think both are important and Scouting should encourage boys to be involved in other acitivities. I just think Bob White brought up a good point. I know I've seen what he is talking about. Been guilty of it myself. My son is "just another scout" and he feels that way too. So he feels no need to try to go on campouts, even if he has no other obligations or plans. One reason boys do keep showing up for their sports team is they feel they make a difference. Even in sports some people start to feel they don't make a difference. They are the ones that quit.

Even without a title for POR, isn't every member of a patrol important? If half the boys in a patrol thinks "I'm just a worker bee, it doesn't matter if I miss this campout", then what does that do to the patrol on the campout? Patrols are recommended to be 8 boys for a reason. If only 2 show up, you can't function very well as a patrol. I think Bob White has a very good point that on a sports team everyone has a "position" but so many times a scout is "just another scout" not "the best pancake cooker" or quartermaster or whatever. That everyone wants to feel they are truly contributing to the "team", whether it is on the baseball field, the campout, or at work.

Many subjects go back to "people don't get trained". What are your experiences with why people don't take the training? (or your opinion of why) A few other questions go along with this in my head: Why do some trainers state as "facts" things obviously in conflict with the printed materials? Assuming people are trained correctly, why do people think "well they said that and it's in the book, but I'm going to keep doing it this way."?

OGE, I agree. Yaworksi, not all rec depts are as good as yours. I've seen our rec dept go "we need a coach for these kids" at a tryout and take the first hand that went up, no background checks, no nothing. That was about 5 years ago. That's one reason why I watch my son practice ball.

Pack38, Thanks for your response. I guess my problem is that I have never seen a "ceremony" for awarding badges. Our pack always calls up the boy and his parent at the pack meeting and says "Junior has earned his wolf badge. Give him a round of applause". Yes, I know there are ceremonies and props, etc. Unfortunately "that's the way our pack has always done it, everyone seems happy with it, no need to drag out the pack meeting". You are right about not spending time in den meeting time "educating". One reason I became a den leader was after a few meetings of watching an unprepared den leader sit behind a table, expecting the boys to sit in a row of chairs and listen to him and read their books. The teachers have a hard time making my son do that! So, I took my son and his friend (both with learning and behavior problems) and some new scouts into a new den for Webelos. We very seldom had the book open. One night after struggling through some science stuff, I asked the den "who can tell me what we did tonight?" After a moment of thought, one boy went "ooohhh, I know. We had FUN." I almost jumped across the table and hugged him. Also, I try to explain to the parents that just going through the book and checking things off just because Junior has done it some time in the past, only cheats him and you of fun. One Bear activity is "bake cookies with an adult". I had a few parents go "yep, we've done that". When my son was a Bear, we did it AGAIN. You just can't make cookies TOO many times. I've told this year's parents that we are at meetings to have fun. I will try to do the achievements that say "do with your den", but the main point is to have planned fun. I also want to beef up our pack recognitions, at least for my den as an example.

"For us (a huge Pack), we like to give the boys a grand ceremony ... nothing short of a momentous occasion. So we elected to have all rank advancement at B&G where 120+ boys can participate with his parents in the ceremony" Has anyone ever tried giving the boy his badge when earned and then recognizing him again at the B&G? The reason I ask is after learning that in troops, the badges "should" be given as soon as possible after being earned and then the boy is recognized at the next Court of Honor. Why wouldn't that work for Cub Scouts? Maybe giving the parent's pin at that time. For Cub Scouts it is a lifetime between now and February, shoot Christmas is ages away! They want to wear that badge and show off.

I snipped some Bob White quotes from the other thread: (with a few typo corrections) **** There is really nothing to vote on. So the need for votes does not exist in the month to month operations of a unit. Nowhere that I am aware of in BSA training or literature does it state that the committee operates by majority rule. *** so then we should NOT vote or let majority rule? *** This is not a 'majority rules' committee. This is a 'here is your assignment now run with it' committee. *** again, no majority rule EVER? *** If the Cub Master and the Committee Chair decide to do a Pinewood in February that is their decision to make. *** so these 2 people do whatever they want even if every other pack leader says NO, won't work *** The point is you don't need to vote to see if you will do a pinewood or where or when. Your program volunteers make a plan share it and the committee supports it. This is not brain surgery it does not require micromanaging. Vote on what? Where does it say that the committee operates on a majority rule? What the heck does a pack buy for $2000? Read the rest of 33 and 34 and tell me where it it says the committee votes on ...ANYTHING. I have said that voting wasn't required, wasn't needed, wasn't taught in the scouting materials. I never said it wasn't permitted. **** {{{I am not saying you can't vote. do it if you want. My point was you don't need to, you are not required to and there are better methods to operate by. There is nothing in that which violates scout spirit. }}} Bob, you have used some strong statements along the lines of "why vote? vote on WHAT?". That implies if any committee ever has a formal or informal vote, or lets the majority rule, then they are WRONG. You also are very adamant that everyone know the literature (which I agree is good). I just looked at the 1996 printing of the Cub Leader's handbook and it also only refers to "pack leader's meetings". So this is NOT a new thing. I can't find my 1999 version right now. So, I could blast you for not being up to date and insisting you KNOW the rules when you don't have a current book, but I won't do that. I appreciate your advice more than most people on this board but found you a little off base with the "there is NO need for a vote". You also wrote: Every Easter I get together with my parents and 4 brothers and their wives. The twelve of us make our plans for the family Christmas party for us and the kids. The party lasts for a few days and so there are lots of plans to make, and yet, we never take a vote. We talk we volunteer we cooperate, we do our assigned tasks. No vote! Of course we keep mom, the committee chair informed of our progress. My family does similiar thing for Thanksgiving -- 40+ people invited each year for the big dinner, everyone brings food, etc. The ones of us planning it talk via email. If you ask me, I say we "vote" on things. My sister emails me and my mom and says "what do you think about buying a precooked ham?". We say "yes" or "no, because..". To me that is a vote. Did we cast special ballots? No. I guess you could consider us the Thanksgiving committee or the Thanksgiving sub-committee. Either way, I say we vote. It doesn't mean we have secret ballots, it doesn't mean we bog down the process, etc. Same with my mother sends an email to myself, my brother and my sister EVERY year to say "let's not exchange gifts for Christmas this year, because......". Now, if we all said "yes we will", my mom would say "okay". Even though we ALL know that majority doesn't normally override a mother's wishes. Is that a vote? I say yes. I also understand that not everything should be voted on. Goodness, most meetings are long enough as is. I've rambled long enough. Sorry, I really wish I had more to do at work than read forums all day (it's not as much fun as it sounds to have nothing to do at work). Bob, will you at least apologize for fussing at those who choose to vote (formally or informally) periodically on issues?

"Most of the rank advancements happen at the Blue & Gold banquet in February. " Please notice the word "most". If a boy earns his rank next week (in October), DO NOT wait until February to award it. Have his den leader recognize him at the next den meeting and then award it at the VERY next pack meeting. On the other side of that coin, DO NOT give out awards that have not been earned. It hurts the boy you gave it to.

Honestly I've yet to see an "official" vote at Pack Comm. mtgs or Troop Comm. mtgs. It is usually a "is that okay with everyone? anyone got a problem?" If the problem starts dragging down the meeting then "we will take this offline after the meeting. next item is ..."

Wow, thanks! I'm printing this one off for my notebook! I live between 2 elementary schools, each with about 250 boys between 1st and 5th grade. Each school tries to have it's own pack. Our pack is still surviving, but this year is hurting. The other pack is off and on. They are on again this year, saw them in the parade on Saturday. Out of each grade of 50 boys, we may have 8 in Cubs. These are the boys and parents you see at everything -- church, sports, school events, etc. Some years we have had 2 dens of a particular grade level. I'm not sure if the other pack has 30 boys this year. Some years they join us with 3 kids per grade level. It puzzles me because we live in a middle class neighborhood in a very conservative based area. Most people have the money to sign their kid up for whatever they want. I would guess most everyone is for "family values" and spends time with their kids. Also, we live in a fast growing area where families are moving in all the time (new houses, not just resells). The last few years our recruiting has been the cubmaster going into the school the day before rally night and handing out flyers with a very quick speech to the boys. Last fall I did a table at school registration/open house the day before school started. We had a lot of people stop by. I don't know how many signed up. Had some girls who wanted to join so they could shoot bb guns. {smile} Last fall the only existing pack members at rally night were myself (den leader), cubmaster, my son (2nd year Webelos), and the Committee Chair. I don't felt like we answered many questions. This year I was not involved. They signed up a Tiger den and then 2 Bears, a few Wolves, and a couple of Webelos. I'm a big "cheerleader" for Cub Scouting. I wear my uniform, tell everyone about Cub Scouting, etc. I'm trying to get more adults involved. Also, trying to get the boys to bring friends. My son and I were trying to recruit while selling popcorn the last few years! Our cubmaster is looking to leave next year when his youngest crosses over. He is burning out and stretched thin. I plan on sharing your ideas with the rest of the pack leadership (never mind we can all fit into one van). I also will share you ideas with our Assistant District Commissioner for Cubs. She is also always looking for new ways to get boys in scouting. At Cub Leader training recently one parent said "I felt pressured into being a leader, I wish they had told us before rally night they needed leaders". We all laughed and said "but then you wouldn't have shown up". Now I see there IS a another way. Takes a plan and some time, but sounds like it is well worth it.

Pack38Scouter, Thanks. Please tell us what your town does to have 2 very strong packs. You have enough boys for 4 packs! What are you doing? (maybe a separate thread) I'm already thinking ahead to next fall, if I'm the Webelos leader for this group, I will plan a Webelos overnighter in September. We have a good number of council approved sites to camp out, all very nice and within about an hour's drive. I think the boys in this den all get along great together and would benefit from a few small group activities even at the family campout.

I had thought about the addition of a picture would be nice as well. That way anyone could see this is the right form for the person, even someone at camp or medical personnel. With or without the picture, it is very important to keep this information secure so wackos aren't making copies for other wackos. Don't leave it behind at the waffle house after breakfast. L-Owl, thanks for the info and glad to hear your scout is okay. I have the Class 1 in front of me, it does say that some states require an annual precamp medical evaluation, to check with your council about that. It also says a Class 1 is to be filled out by ALL participants and on file for easy reference. Even with parents right there, I want to know if a boy has allergies, is on medications or has medical problems. If the kid allergic to bee stings get stung, I want to know he is allergic. Or to not bring peanut butter if someone has severe allergies to peanuts. There are times when I forget the names and dosage of medication I take, it's best to have it written down.

It doesn't say you have to vote, it doesn't say you can't vote. It also doesn't say how long the meeting should be. The book gives guidelines of what should be covered and a basic outline.

Per the Cub Scout Leader Book, 2001 edition. Monthly Pack Leaders' Planning Meeting Who? All adult den and pack leaders attend this planning meeting. It goes on to say den leaders turn in advancement reports to the person responsible for obtaining awards. Den leaders turn over den dues to the pack treasurer. Special committees report on plans for the upcoming pack meeting or special events for the upcoming months. SOOOOO, that sounds to me like den leaders and committee members are in the SAME meeting. There is NO mention of "committee meetings" vs. "den leader's meeting". Maybe in a previous version but not the CURRENT one.

Bob, The cubmaster is at the den meetings for a few different reason -- reason #1 his son is there, reason #2 it give him a chance to communicate (with handouts) to the den leaders weekly. As a den leader, I have every right to attend a committee meeting if I wish. Have you ever played the game "gossip"? I tell the cubmaster, he tells the committee, what if there is a misunderstanding? Oh, wait, I know, that's my problem or his problem,etc. If we had 10 den leaders and 6 to 8 committee members, to meet all at once would not be productive. But having 5 den leaders and 3 committee members and 1 cubmaster (no assts.), one meeting covers it all. We all have to do what works sometimes. I think the books say den leaders SHOULD meet separately, I don't think it is a LAW. Even at the troop level, there are some decisions that must be made as a group or at least most adults want it made as a group. Should we have the yard sale here or there? Any suggestions? Any comments on why here or there? Okay we will have it there, yard sale person, go get that place reserved. It is for input and so you don't end up with dictators like so many people on the board talk about. The committee chair who makes all the decisions, the popcorn person who decides on a show and sell location or date that doesn't work with the majority of the adults. If you don't have buy in from your group, you are putting yourself up for failure as a leader. Isn't this what we teach the boys?

Just talked to some of the parents who said they only plan to go for the day. I encouraged them to be sure to stay through dinner and at least "act like camping" while there. I may also take one of my small tents for the boys to practice putting up and it will give them a place to rest and hide out when they need some down time that afternoon. That should ease the parents and boys into camping. I don't want to force anyone to be in "the group" if they prefer to do their own thing that day.

Let me expand on my thoughts a little. Over the last 2 years, few of my Webelos den camped. There was another Webelos den that seemed to camp as a group but they excluded us (fine, didn't really like them anyway). A couple of times I teamed up with the other single mom and we acted as one family. This year I have Bears. We have a council sponsored family campout coming up. The council does NOT provide food. There are some activities. Some of the kids and families have never camped before. Some are single mom & one kid. I'm wondering if we should try camping as a group and having the boys do some simple cooking -- hobo dinners, etc. Start getting them use to kaper charts about some easy jobs.

If the Popcorn chair says "we are doing a show & sell on Saturday" and the den leaders say "no way, I'm not standing out there with the kids to earn $100". Then the popcorn chair is going to be out there by himself. If we don't ALL agree to do the show and sell, then it doesn't work. Popcorn chair may not know of last year's show & sell fiasco (where? not many sales, etc.) Perhaps the den leaders could suggest a new location, a different approach. I know I would not want to make such a decision in a vacuum. I may not always be right, someone else just might have a better idea.

Bob, Since many people in this thread read your posts as "no voting is ever needed", I'm not the only one that felt that you implied you should NEVER vote. I think communication is hindered if the committee and the den leaders do not talk face to face. Also, you asking the cubmaster to attend a monthly meeting with the committee AND a monthly meeting wiht the den leaders AND roundtable AND pack meeting. Also, our cubmaster attends the weekly den meetings (we all meet on the same night, same place). So this means he will be meeting basically twice a week, almost every week. Maybe if our committee was large and we had more than 5 den leaders, I would see this different. But with cubmaster, cc, adv. chair, and 5 den leaders, it works fine.

Bob writes: "Did I say voting wasn't permitted? " Uh, Yes. Lots of times. You have said there is nothing to vote on and that the only mention of voting is that the scoutmaster can't vote. Committee members may be competent but some decisions should be made as a group. Example of my popcorn kernel. He comes back to the pack leadership and says "do you want to do show & sell? I recommend we do and here is why." If we all felt disagreed, then we override him and the group makes the decision. Yes, the documentation says den leaders do not attend committee meetings, but where I live every pack does it this way. Otherwise you have a committee meeting for the cubmaster, and then the cubmaster goes to another monthly meeting with the den leaders to tell them what was said in the committee meeting. Let's just add to that volunteer's job, sure he likes meetings. Also, since most packs around here do not have much of a committee and the den leaders are impacted as parents & leaders by decisions made in committee meetings, it helps for the den leaders to be involved.

When your pack goes camping (as a pack overnighter or at a council event), do have your dens camp as a group? Or is everyone on their own? Would like to hear pros and cons of each.