ScoutNut

My district Commissioner told me a neck item is required for my position

My District Commissioner has never required me, as a Unit Commissioner, to wear any kind of neck item.

Yes

I totally believe in the "nothing less and nothing more" policy, but I don't want to cut corners on a Eagle MB. I'm Inclined to approve his plan providing he gets his patrol to forgo their chuck box with dutch oven and plan and pack in trail meals and trail equipment since 7B & 8D requires him to pack in some of the patrol gear and his patrol agrees to eat a trail meal instead of car camp meal.

 

It seems that while you refuse to allow "nothing less", you are not opposed to adding something "more".

 

If you follow the requirements - as they are written - you will not be "cutting corners". Nowhere in the requirements does it state that the camping, or cooking, MUST be done while on a specific kind of camping trip. Nowhere do the requirements state that dutch oven cooking is not allowed.

 

Requirement 7-B does NOT "require" him to CARRY his pack in anywhere. Requirement 7 is about PREPARING for an overnight - not actually going on one (although that does usually follow it is not required). It also does not require that the pack be backpacked in to remote backpack site. The Scout, and the boys in his patrol, can carry their patrol stuff, in their backpacks, 100 feet from the car to their camp site.

 

Requirement 8-D requires this Scout to cook 3 meals for his patrol. These meals do NOT all have to be on the same trip. Only ONE of the three meals must be a "trail meal requiring the use of a lightweight stove". Notice the requirement does NOT state that the trail meal must be done while on an actual trail. Nor does it state that the trail meal must be done on a backpack trail. The Scout can cook his "trail meal" at base camp overlooking the parking lot if necessary. He can also take his patrol on a hike to the nearest picnic shelter and cook them a "trail meal" lunch.

However, "encourage", and "require", are two very different things.

I totally believe in the "nothing less and nothing more" policy, but I don't want to cut corners on a Eagle MB. I'm Inclined to approve his plan providing he gets his patrol to forgo their chuck box with dutch oven and plan and pack in trail meals and trail equipment since 7B & 8D requires him to pack in some of the patrol gear and his patrol agrees to eat a trail meal instead of car camp meal.

It seems that while you refuse to allow "nothing less", you are not opposed to adding something "more".

If you follow the requirements - as they are written - you will not be "cutting corners". Nowhere in the requirements does it state that the camping, or cooking, MUST be done while on a specific kind of camping trip. Nowhere do the requirements state that dutch oven cooking is not allowed.

Requirement 7-B does NOT "require" him to CARRY his pack in anywhere. Requirement 7 is about PREPARING for an overnight - not actually going on one (although that does usually follow it is not required). It also does not require that the pack be backpacked in to remote backpack site. The Scout, and the boys in his patrol, can carry their patrol stuff, in their backpacks, 100 feet from the car to their camp site.

Requirement 8-D requires this Scout to cook 3 meals for his patrol. These meals do NOT all have to be on the same trip. Only ONE of the three meals must be a "trail meal requiring the use of a lightweight stove". Notice the requirement does NOT state that the trail meal must be done while on an actual trail. Nor does it state that the trail meal must be done on a backpack trail. The Scout can cook his "trail meal" at base camp overlooking the parking lot if necessary. He can also take his patrol on a hike to the nearest picnic shelter and cook them a "trail meal" lunch.

Email interviews? For an SMC?

I don't do eMail interviews.

How can he show me a bowline via eMail? How do I know if he has the book open on another screen?

Why was he so set on ONLY email?

My first guess would be that he did not, in fact, do the interview himself, and email, which can be done from anywhere, by anyone, AS anyone, was the easiest way to accomplish this.

My son never came to us with these issues, I first became aware because other adults I barely knew were coming to me to alert me.

 

The scout is a very intelligent young man, knows exactly how to properly and politely conduct himself when adults are around, and how to make extremely rude, snide remarks during times when there won't be witnesses, or only witnesses he has complete control over.

 

As for my son's friends, many of them know about the issues but are afraid to stand up to the bully scout. They don't want to be an added target.

Obviously, this boy is NOT all that intelligent, or good at hiding what he is doing. The other Scouts know about it, and so do other adults.

Shame on the those other adults for not helping. Especially shame on the ASM, and SM, your son went to for help, and did nothing to stop the behavior from happening. I will not say shame on the CC/mom because, apparently, she is where the son is learning his behavior.

Send a letter to the DE, IH, COR, CC, SM, and all ASMs, detailing the problem, and the fact that you are changing Troops because the Troop adults are ALL enabling bullying to happen. Remind them that all types of bullying are prohibited in Scouting. Encourage them to be part of the solution, and not the problem, before more boys are harmed.

Then get the heck out of there permanently. Encourage your son to try to get his friends out too. Once the bully's main target is gone, he will move on to the next.

Here are some resources that might help you, and your son, deal with this -

http://www.stopbullying.gov/

http://kidshealth.org/parent/emotion.../bullies.html#

http://www.thebullyproject.com/

http://www.helpguide.org/mental/bullying.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.org/bullying/art-20044918

Talk to your son about the ways to deal with a bully discussed in the above. Talk about what he did, and what he should do if it ever happens again.

To bad your son's Eagle project is finished. A project on bullying would have been great for him, the other Scouts in his Troop, and the youth in his community.

Good luck in the new Troop!

Yes, "eligible youth". The BSA can't do anything about those youth who are not members, and to become a member you must meet certain requirements - be "eligible".

"Eligible youth" is also NOT a PC way to say boys only. Really? Do you know nothing of the organization you have a "passion" for?

The Vision is a vision for the ENTIRE corporation of BSA. Hello! There are girls in BSA! "Eligible youth" covers ALL youth members, boys AND girls, and is simply a more succinct, professional, way of stating it.

Something to consider when combining a Venturing Crew and a Troop - Any Crew members 18+ years old MUST follow regular YPT rules with the Troop YOUTH.

While an 18 year old might be a youth to other members of their Crew - to all of the Troop members they are an adult.

This means the 18+ yo Crew members can NOT tent with, or be alone with, any of the Troop members.

Personally, I think chartering a Crew as a "part" of a Troop is a bad idea. Especially when the Crew is restricted to all females. Will the girls be required to leave the Crew at 18, like the boys are in the Troop?

Some of your problem could be in your terminology. Your Pack folks might be thinking "ADVANCEMENT". Meaning when the Cubs change levels. Hence "Crossing Over".

However when you earn your rank award, that is ALL you are doing - earning the award for your rank level. It really has nothing to do with "advancement" per se.

We hold "Blue & Gold" in February because, per BSA, B&G is a celebration of the birthday of Cub Scouting, and February is when the anniversary falls. Also per BSA, B&G is a time to celebrate your Scouts, and your Pack. One of the ways this is done is by awarding boys their current rank award in a fun ceremony - in front of all of the families and friends.

BSA recommends shooting for February Blue and Gold to complete all of the requirements for the rank awards. That is the main push behind their den meeting templates, and timetables.

Personally, I found that to be a great date to use as a goal. Families, and Scouts,respond better when given a specific goal to work toward. It helps (somewhat) to combat the (strong) urge to procrastinate until May 31 !

Another thing to keep in mind - While Cub Scouts can work on Electives all year long, they can only receive the recognitions, and display them, AFTER they have received their rank award. This can have bigger implications for your Tigers. If they do not receive their Tiger rank award until April, or even May, they will have little, to no, time to display all of the Electives they have earned.

We never held a boy back from receiving awards he had earned. Nor did we ever state they MUST be earned by B&G. However, we were always busy during March-May doing lot of non-rank award related fun stuff. To have all of that done by the end of February left us time to concentrate on other things without worrying about how to best get rank awards finished before the end of the school year.

So, you meet a gentleman (young or old) and, he mentions he is an Eagle Scout. Do you question him on his family, and scouting, life in order to decide how high you should "regard" his accomplishment?

What do you do if you decide his answers are not "good" enough, and you do not feel he is a very "worthy" Eagle?

If you would really judge someone based on YOUR criteria of how/why they EARNED Eagle, what kind of person (not simply Scout/Scouter) does that make you?

Personally, I could care less about the minutia. He completed all of the requirements, and EARNED Eagle. That is something.

Heck, I think plowing thru all of those boring as heck merit badges in itself deserves some kind of award!

I will rotate them.

 

I'm aware of the parent/scout team concept. I suppose it works in some cases. in mine, getting parent participation is extremely difficult. Parents are often texting throughout the meeting. I've politely brought up the above theme to no avail. I'm not going to force the issue and drive scouts out of the program. Agreeing on a meeting night once a month took weeks. Boyscouttrail.com specifically says every den should have denners. I don't see any downside in this minimal responsibility position for 7 year olds. I have a 7 year old right now so I know what he and his friends are capable of. I see 7 year olds play games in teams everyday and they love it. We should really be meeting at least twice a month but if I suggested that it would just be me and my son at the meetings so I'll do the best I can based on my situation.

Pulling names out of a hat as another poster suggested is a good idea. Keep out the names of the boys who have already served, and have the current Denner pull the name(s) at the end of the meeting,

Sorry to hear that your parents just sit and text the entire meeting. What a shame they are missing all of the fun!

I was Tiger leader for our Pack for 15 years, and (thank goodness) never had that problem. I always told the parents, up front, at the first meeting, that being their Tiger Scouts Adult Partner meant just that. They were their partner - in everything. In opening/closing ceremonies, songs, games, skits, crafts, Den Yells, etc. Anything the Tiger did, his Adult Partner was to be right there next to him doing it too.

Many were a bit hesitant at first. It is difficult sometimes to get a grown-up to yell at the top of their lungs, or play a game, like they did when they were 7 years old. However, since they had to be there anyway, they soon found that sharing the Scouting experience with their son was fun for both.

We got a lot of great leaders, and Scouts, out of our Tiger dens!

BTW - While boyscouttrail.com is a good resourse - it is NOT an official BSA site. Unless backed up with a BSA source, comments, like specifically stating all dens should have denners, is their OPINION only - NOT a hard/fast rule from BSA National.

Have fun with your Scouts!

Too bad that your research did not turn up the Shared Leadership program for Tiger dens.

There is really no need for Denners, or Asst Denners in a Tiger den.

Tigers are not individual Scouts. Each Tiger Scout is supposed to be half of a Tiger Team. Tiger Teams are the Tiger Scout, and his Adult Partner. You do not have 9 individual Scouts you order around each week. You have 9 TEAMS, or 18 people, who you should be working WITH to provide/enjoy the Tiger program. Responsibility is given to each TEAM to run a meeting, activity, outing, etc. That way BOTH Scout, and adult, learn together (slowly - they are just beginning after all) about responsibility, leadership, and Scouting.

As for Denners, since you are using this program, they should only stay in "office" for about 1-2 months at a time. Depending on the size of the den, most dens that are just starting out will appoint both Denner, and Asst Denner, up front. After a month the BOYS in the den elect a new Asst Denner, and the current Asst becomes Denner. You can also change out both at once.

The key is to set "term limits" up front, and have the boys vote for their new Denners. You should also have them vote only on boys who have not previously held the positions. That way every boy gets a chance.

Generally Eagle project size. But, keep in mind that some Eagle projects are extremely large. If all you've seen are massive ones that take thousands of man-hours, then you don't need to do 5 of those! You can earn it as both. If I were you, I'd knock off the three merit badges. That way you can earn a palm. And I like palms!

There is also extra project documentation for Venturers that is required in ADDITION to what is required for Scouts.

You really need to talk to someone in your council who is experienced with the Hornaday Awards to help you sort thru all of this.

Generally Eagle project size. But, keep in mind that some Eagle projects are extremely large. If all you've seen are massive ones that take thousands of man-hours, then you don't need to do 5 of those! You can earn it as both. If I were you, I'd knock off the three merit badges. That way you can earn a palm. And I like palms!

If so, there are no separate "versions" for Boy Scout, Venturing, or Varsity. Everyone completes the same requirements to receive the same awards. The only thing that might make earning them as a Venturer a bit more "easy" is that while Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts have up until their 18th birthday, Venturers can work on the awards up until their 21st birthday.

Also, while you might look at the Hornaday projects as "Eagle size", in the literature it mentions projects that make "significant contributions" to conservation, require a "substantial commitment of time and energy", involve "truly outstanding efforts", and are "truly exceptional conservation projects".

This is NOT a check-a-box award. This is NOT a project that can be accomplished in an afternoon of picking up litter.There is NO "easy" way to complete these awards.

To give you some perspective on Hornaday vs Eagle - According to the BSA national website -

In the SINGLE year of 2012 - 57,976 Scouts earned the rank of Eagle Scout.

in the past 80 YEARS only about 1,100 Hornaday medals have been awarded.

Granted, this is for the Hornaday medals (Bronze/Silver), so there might be a higher number of Scouts who have earned just the Hornaday Badge, but somehow I doubt it is as high as 57,976 in one year.

So, to answer your question, while I do not know for certain that a Scout/Venturer could earn a single Hornaday Award twice, why would you want to?

We usually have our local Fire Station Paramedics do it. The Webelos love going to the Firehouse, and the guys are great with the kids.

Having a specific opening, and closing, for your den meeting, is a good thing. As mentioned, it gives the Tiger Teams time to settle down, and focus, and get stuff ready to leave.

If you read the parent intro at the beginning of the Tiger Cub Handbook, it describes "Parts of a Tiger Cub Den Meeting".

There is also the fact that repetition is a good way for everyone (Tiger and Adult Partner alike) to learn things. Incorporating the Cub Scout Promise/Law/Motto/Sign/Handshake/Salute in every (or almost every) meeting is a great way to help everyone retain them. Plus it helps the Scouts to complete their Bobcat requirements.

As for a den flag ceremony, Tiger Requirement 2-D is to practice the Pledge of Allegiance, and participate in a flag ceremony. Incorporating a flag ceremony as part of your den opening, and rotating which Tiger Team is in charge of running the ceremony, gives everyone the opportunity to participate, and learn.

A "One and Done" mentality to simply check off boxes in a book is never a good idea, and sets a bad precedence for their later Scout years. It takes repetition to really learn something.

Yes, Tiger Cubs, and Scouting should be fun, but that is not ALL it is. The fun is how we bring the PROGRAM to the boys. Opening/closing/flag, and other ceremonies do not need to be boring. It is possible to be fun, and teach something at the same time.

Tigers are G-R-R-R-R-R-E-A-T !!!!!

Starting a BSA unit is not cheap. If they do not have financial help from either their CO (Boys/Girls Club), or the Cub Scout parents, this Pack will NOT sustain itself for long.

One question - you said that there is no parent support for this new Pack - do they have any registered Cub Scouts at all?

If your CO did not have the "bandwidth" (money/people/youth/etc) to form their own Cub Pack, why would they go along with THEIR money being used to fund a barely (or non) functioning Pack across the street? They will most likely need every cent they can get their hands on to fund their brand new Venture Crew.

Get the Charter Org Rep (COR), and the head of the CO, involved. If the CO wants to help out a local Pack, let them use other CO money, and not take money away from their Troop's Scouts. For that matter, if they are going to be giving money to another CO, why not help out the Pack already in existence, and strengthen their ties there?

Bottom line - this money belongs to the CO, and the BOYS, not to the Troop CC.

The Pack is with a different CO. Does that change the answer?

The Venture Crew is in our CO.

 

The background is that our Committee Chair is trying to start the Cub Pack and the Venture Crew. However, many on the committee are not on board. Some are also concerned that she's been using Troop money and making promises to these groups without going through the Committee first.

 

We want to strengthen our own Troop, which is in desperate need of focus and basic infrastructure. We're concerned that her attention and time with the Cub and Venture are distracting her attention and ours - as she uses committee agendas to discuss Cub and Venture needs, often above Troop needs. And now she also wants us to spend Troop money supporting them. When she asked for $ for the Cub pack, there was no indication that there is any parent involvement or real interest, and she reacted very defensively when asked. We definitely would like to see them grow, but believe that they need to be committed themselves, and that we can provide more help if we're strong ourselves.

 

Any input?

Why is the Troop's CC starting a brand new Pack, with a different CO?

What position does the Troop CC hold with the Pack? With the Crew?

I'm really frustrated and confused. This new program looks too much like Girl Scouts and I really dislike their program. Currently Webelos can earn 20 activity badges and if they earn all 20 get a special super achiever patch - that is something my son has been working towards. But what happens now?! Why do all the scouts have to do the same thing? I like that our den offers the base activity badges, but my son has the opportunity to go above and beyond on his own (with his family or at summer camp). This all sounds like terrible news and I am questioning our commitment to this program.

Second - if you read all the way thru the program pdf you will notice the Webelos Elective section.

There are 19 Elective "Adventures" a Webelos can earn - if THEY choose.

Gotta agree with Base - Charter Organization owns the Troop. Don't like the Charter, or it's policies, then find a different Troop, owned by a Charter Org you feel is a better fit for you.

What I found interesting is that there is no mention of Kindergarten Lions. Many folks were assuming that BSA was waiting for the Cub program re-write to include the Kinder-Cub level.

It seems that BSA will not be taking that program nation-wide as of the 2015-2016 Scout year.

What I would - currently - go by is if your Scouts are entering 4th grade as of May 2015, they start Webelos using the new Webelos program (whatever that ultimately ends up being).

If your Scouts are entering 5th grade as of May 2015, they would continue to finish using the old Webelos program.

If you have brand new to Scouts boys, first entering as a 5th grade Webelos as of May 2015, they would use the new program. Depending on what the final changes are, and if earning AOL will still be required for "early" entrance to the Boy Scout program, these new Scouts could very well work on both the Webelos award, and AOL award requirements, at the same time. Or either one alone, depending on what interests them, and when they plan on moving to Boy Scouts.

I am sure we will see some kind of clarification come out of BSA during the next 1.5 years.

Wow A lot of Information without answering anything for sure.

Gotta Love this from the Scouting magazine file provided

CONFIDENTIAL

Please do not share this document with others. These are working documents and

are subject to change.

So, of course, it gets shared all over the place, and treated as a done deal.

The point is that they do NOT have everything settled as of yet. Once we get closer to May 1, 2015, I would bet we will see some more, and clearer, information on the particulars.

I am sure that for Webelos it will be the same as for any other changes BSA has made to it's program.

If you have started the "old" way - BEFORE - the "new" way becomes official, you can finish using the "old" criteria.

Once the "new" way becomes official you can ONLY do/use/earn the "new" way.

As I posted in your duplicate thread - no - a COR can not also be registered as the unit's SM.