ScoutNut

From the BSA New-Unit Application -

"The chartered organization selects one of its members to register as chartered organization representative who may also serve as chair or as unit committee member if needed. All units must have a unit leader and a minimum of five paid youth. There must be at least three committee members, with one named chair. Packs must have a den leader/Webelos den leader/Tiger Cub leader who should be registered as an adult in the pack. The chartered organization also provides meeting facilities for the unit. No one may register in more than one position in the same unit, except the chartered organization representative."

No, a COR can not be registered as both COR and SM. A valid charter requires 2 separate individuals registered as SM and COR.

When my son's Troop did Winter camping, son would typically use the same set up he used in any hike-in campout. That included a flat, closed cell, sleeping pad, and a foam pad topper. When he had more room in the tent he would pack his twin size air mattress, with battery operated pump. It rolled up into a fairly small size and did not take much more room in his pack (an old army bag) than his sleeping mats. He did not use his air mattress for Winter camping.

 

Although I don’t want to get the discussion of topic, I felt the need to respond.

 

My intent was not to slight GSA; I was just pointing out a difference in the traditional programs of each organization. My involvement with GSA was between 1990 and 2002. The troop GSA troop in question disbanded fourteen years ago, and to my knowledge the adult leaders are no longer active. I can, and should you still be interested, will, provide the details on the Troop as a personal message.

 

I can’t speak for other GSA Troops, but know about how this operated. This troop strongly favored social activities, with the only regular events, summer camp aside, being a sock hop, a formal dance, and yearly trip to the local amusement park. Outside of summer camp, I can only remember two times the troop actually camped, once in cabins with bunks, the other time in rv’s owned by parents.

 

I tried, as a parent, co-leader, and later member of the parent committee, to get the troop to invest in camping gear. My suggestion to invest in camping gear was essentially taken as a joke, and when the group realized I was in earnest, met with anger. I was told, under no uncertain terms, all funds the troop raised were to be used for a Big Trip to Disney World, and I had no place trying to disrupt this plan.

 

To the kids credit, they did got to Disney World, although the youth had no input in planning the trip. I’m still entirely unsure how Disney World has anything to do with scouting, but that’s water under the bridge. I assume by your response not all Girl Scout Troops are like this, and this is encouraging.

 

If there are Girl Scout leaders out there running quality outdoor programs, I apologize to you, and support what you’re doing with all my heart.

 

I still want to hear what troops use cots; something that apparently the Girl Scouts no longer allow; good choice GSA! Cots are in fact rough on tents, but also just not conducive to scout camping.

Comparing GSUSA, and BSA, is also not a very useful thing to do. It is rather like comparing apples, and pineapples.

GSUSA Troops are usually very different from one another. They are only as adventurous as their leaders (first), and their girls. Our GSUSA Troop never slept in cots. They did, however, sleep on wooden bunks in various youth camping cabins. They also cabin camped on mats on the floor, and tent camped using sleeping mats. It pretty much depended on where they were camping at the time. Once they even camped in bunks on a caboose (after one night they pitched their tents because they were warmer!).

Sorry your GSUSA experience was limited to dances, and amusement parks!

BTW - my Girl Scouts are now 28 years old so they were camping with GSUSA from 1991-2003.

If the church, and the IH/COR are still going to have a Troop with the church, there is no way that the church will release the charter to you.

The Troop is not disbanding, it is just splitting.

It is up to the folks leaving to go out, get a new charter organization, and start a brand new Troop - from scratch - with them. Or, failing that, you can find another Troop that runs a good, boy-led, program, and join them.

Actually, the COR does NOT own the unit.

The unit is owned by the Charter Organization.

The COR, or - Charter Organization Representative - is the REPRESENTATIVE of the Charter Organization (CO). The COR is an intermediary between the CO, the CO's unit, and the BSA District/Council.

The person to talk to about this mess would be the head of the Charter Organization (IH-Institutional Head) itself.

If the IH of your CO is backing the COR, than your only recourse is to find a different Troop, or start a new one.

Dear NewToScoutsDad, from AlmostNewToScoutsMom,

 

I totally sympathize and understand your position. I have a younger daughter who had to attend with me when my son's Cub Scout pack needed me last year.

 

My husband often works late, and is often called to work unexpectedly. We have no family where we live now, and I cannot afford to pay a sitter $50 so that I can go volunteer. Therefore, my daughter often accompanied me. She was quiet and well behaved, more so than some of the Tiger Cubs.

 

I think every pack and every troop are a bit different. The comments indicating that younger children of either gender are an annoyance hit me in a sore spot due to the behavior of the leaders of my particular pack. Your mileage may vary.

 

In our pack, only 3 dads volunteer: CM, CC, and the camping coordinator (whose son will bridge this year). Everything else is done by the moms. We all have younger children, boys and girls. Two of the lady volunteers have young babies.

 

After leaving the post of Treasurer this summer (details in other posts), I started volunteering with American Heritage Girls this year on behalf of my daughter. It is a much more pleasant atmosphere in which to volunteer than Cub Scouts was for me. There are some things in AHG culture that I think would be a nice addition to Scouting:

 

1. AHG Troops integrate different ages instead of separating them all the time. This is not to say that the older girls don't get a chance to focus only on themselves and age appropriate activities. They absolutely do.

 

However, it is part of the older girls' training to lead the younger girls in activities from time to time. This fall, the older girls have organized a hike, leading the younger girls. They also organized a sleepover for the girls.

 

I am grateful my 7 year old daughter has these very sharp and professional young ladies of 12-15 or so to look up to. They are wonderful role models. I believe it is also a good teaching experience for the older girls to learn to lead. Isn't leadership a trait Scouts should be learning?

 

2. AHG does a better job of making it easy for parents to volunteer and integrate their other children than the BSA, in my opinion, having volunteered for both groups. My son often accompanies me to his sister's meetings because our family situation requires it. He sometimes participates, as he did with our "box of goodies for the troops" project this week. Sometimes, he works on his homework. Not once has anyone in AHG complained.

 

What the BSA has communicated to me as a parent is that they expect me to be a BSA volunteer first, and a parent to my own kids (all of them) second. I can't do that. I got tired of my daughter being left out. I got her into a program that was good for her, and took my volunteer time along with me. So have many of the other very tired moms in our pack. Maybe some packs and troops are so flush with volunteers that they can afford to make it obnoxious to volunteer for the BSA. I don't really understand the BSA's reasoning.

 

My son's CM and CC both need to pull their heads out. I fully expect they will be looking around in a year with no other volunteers at all dimly trying to figure out what happened and why they're stuck doing everything themselves.

 

My jaw hit the floor when our CC this fall had the gall to call my friend whose son is in my son's den and ask her to do all the shopping for the fall campout (about 100 people). On 24 hours notice. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant at the time with two younger children and was in pain just walking. But, hey, like the CC said, she has a Costco membership and can save the pack money. And she's been way too nice to them for the last two years. She has quit completely as a Scout volunteer. Maybe if they'd been a little more polite and reasonable, she might have been willing to come back. Now, she's pissed and will likely never volunteer for the BSA again, justifiably.

 

So, when I read notes like the one in this thread complaining about how all those pesky younger siblings get in the way and the adult volunteers should make other arrangements so they can put the troop first, I just shake my head and hope the BSA will get a clue before they lose any more adults willing to volunteer.

 

GA Mom

Yes, there are dysfunctional Packs out there, yours is definitely one of them. But they are NOT following the policies of BSA (hence - dysfunctional).

Also, your issues were with bringing younger siblings (boys OR girls) along to a CUB activity. The OP is talking about bringing a younger sibling to a BOY SCOUT activity.

Different program, different rules, different policies, horse of a different color, apples/oranges. I think/hope you get the idea.

You want your Scouts to have a say in your District? What does your Charter Organization Representative (COR) do?

From BSA National website -

"The Boy Scouts of America, in its relationship with chartered organizations, depends on the COR to be the liaison between the local council and the organization. As the representative of the organization, you have the responsibility to share information between the council and the organization and vice versa. In fact, you are a voting member of the district and council. The council is a grassroots organization in that there are more CORs than council members at large. So the control of the council belongs to the chartered organizations."

If you want your Scouts to have more of a say in your District you need to get your COR involved in your Troop, and your District/Council.

As for Boy Scout, and Cub Scout activities such as Camporees, and Webelos Woods - these events, like just about everything else in a BSA council, are run by adult volunteers. In most cases, those adult volunteers will utilize a LOT of Boy Scout help, and in many cases Scout input as well.

Field Bowling:

You will need a fairly decent hill to keep the bowling balls rolling. We aim for 5 gallon buckets.

 

 

If you have access to a frozen lake: Turkey BOWLING!

Traffic cones make good pins and you use a frozen turkey as the "ball." Afterwards you cook and eat the turkey as a patrol.

Field Bowling:

You will need a fairly decent hill to keep the bowling balls rolling. We aim for 5 gallon buckets.

 

 

If you have access to a frozen lake: Turkey BOWLING!

Traffic cones make good pins and you use a frozen turkey as the "ball." Afterwards you cook and eat the turkey as a patrol.

Gotta say, deep frying a frozen, or even a partially frozen, turkey, is NOT a good idea. Unless, of course, your plan is to actually start a large grease fire and burn down the surrounding woods (not to mention yourself)!

Also, it seems like eating a turkey that has been tossed around a frozen lake, or other outside spot, for a number of hours, sounds like a recipe for all sorts of nasty tummy things to happen. After a few hours the packaging will have torn, and the turkey will have partially thawed, leaving you with a dirty, semi-thawed, bird.

What council did you say you were in??

Yes, I realize aol is not required, but parents believe it is.

The rest of the Webelos still have (varying amounts of) time to complete their AOL. However you can only do so much. You can not force them to complete the requirements. Give them all opportunities. Then it is up to them.

Unfortunately, it sounds like you have a number of "fudgers", like SM Mom, who will sign off on everything, actually completed or not, just to get their kid his bling. All you can do is your best. Beating your head against this wall will mostly just get you a headache.

Good Luck! When it comes time for your son to move to a Troop, perhaps you can look in other areas to find a good Troop, without these parents.

"

1. Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old."
   

None of the boys "have" to earn AOL. They are not - can not - move to Boy Scouts until their 11th birthday, at that point they do not need AOL to join.

The one Webelos who is turning 11 next month is the only one who really needs to complete his AOL requirements immediately - if he wants to earn the award before his crossover to Boy Scouts. Is the Boy Scout info portion the only thing he has left to do? Since his AOL requirements have already been "fudged", I see no reason to believe that they will not continue to be so. Contact his mother, and let her know what he has to complete in order to get his AOL at the Tuesday ceremony. Then it is in their hands to do, or not.

As for the other Webelos, if they have not completed the requirements for AOL there is no need for them to attend Tuesday's AOL ceremony. They still have time to complete their requirements. All you can do is to offer them the opportunity. The rest is up to them.

First I have a question about the artist construction requirement. Can this be anything they make or design or does it have to be a sculpture of sorts? I had an idea to take square glass votive holders and modpodge some tissue paper cut outs onto it to give as a Christmas gift. My boys all earned the Craftsman badge at Day Camp this year so I was thinking we could use this for the artist construction requirement. Would this work?

Read your Webelos Handbook. It is pretty specific on just what "Constructions" are.

From pg 119 - Webelos Handbook - Artist -

Constructions are fun. You “build†a sculpture, using all sorts of objects. For the base, start with a handful of clay or a piece of wood. Collect odds and ends you’d like to combine. These might be scrap items, things you've saved, things no one wants. Ideas: tongue depressors, ice cream sticks, toothpicks, bits of wood; buttons, cloth, yarn, spools, string; plastic spoons, forks, and knives; wire, chicken wire, screen wire, pipe cleaners, chenille stems, corks; straws, keys, bottle caps, egg cartons (you can cut shapes from them); seed pods, pine cones, nuts, sticks, seashells.

We used to call these "Genius Kits" or "Recycle Kits". They made for a great activity at a Pack meeting! We would give the boys a theme to base their "construction" on. It helps them to visualize what a pile of "junk" can become. Something like - a new invention that had to have a distinct purpose - a space ship - something magic - something that does something - etc.

We would get paper grocery bags and put in various "things". Make sure to add something that can be used as a base of sorts. Some we used were foam meat trays, Styrofoam piece, piece of plywood, plastic tub. The only rules were you could only use the bag, and what was in it. You did not have to use everything. We made sure to include things like tacks, string, wire, etc. We also provided glue that could be used.

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

From the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principal on it's Adult Application - "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership."

BSA's Charter/Bylaws/Rules/Regulations further state - "The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, "Reverent.A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others." "

So, you, and the other leaders, could NOT have had your BSA memberships revoked simply because you were not Christian - or even not "mainline" Christian. If your BSA memberships were revoked for religious reasons it HAD to have been because you are NOT religious in any way. In other words - because you are atheists.

Also, teaching sex education, is not against BSA Youth Protection guidelines. It will NOT get you "labeled a deviant". If that were the case, there would be many a teacher on that list, as that is part of the health curriculum at many schools (public and private) across the country.

Finally, I find the whole gun story to be rather strange too. I know of NO school (again - public or private) that condones weapons being brought onto the premises. Especially not a loaded gun! Any school that had a child who brought a loaded gun to school, threatened to kill people, and physically assaulted a teacher, would not be worried that the kid's father would pull him from the school. The school, not to mention the police, would do that for him. They would not usually keep the kid, and fire the teacher that kept himself, and the students, from being shot to death!

Agreed its SM/Parent time, but as ASM for stabbing with a pencil and drawing blood I would have confiscated the Totin Chit and not worried about corners.

Taking someones crutches is quite un-scout-behaviour. Special class on 1st Aid maybe? No hazzing I know, I have old school ideas ...

 

In 2.5 years as a leader we/I only ever had 1 scout that was removed from the troop (Leaders decided, told the Committee who told the parents).

But that is and should only be the very last resort.

 

So how to manipulate a lil manipilator to stop manipulating? ...

What is your Charter Organization? Are you LDS? The organization that holds your BSA charter, and owns your unit, can "hire", and "fire", it's volunteers at any time, for any (or no) reason.

It seems there is a rather messy/involved backstory here. Without a Scoutmaster a Troop can not function well. This one sounds like it is turning into a Cub Scout group for older boys - if it has not been that way all along.

I strongly advise you to take your sons and find a BSA Troop that actually delivers the BSA Boy Scout program.

~Now the Committee wants to remove the rank of the current PL ---- What do I do now?

I hope by "rank" you really mean his title/position of PL, and not his BSA rank (2nd Class, 1st Class, Star, etc). Once a BSA rank has been awarded - no one - except the BSA National office, has the ability to remove it.

Certainly not your Troop's committee.

Talk to your Scoutmaster - NOW.

BTW - what was done with Alex for his multiple incidents of shoving, and (especially) Jacob for shoving, stabbing, tripping, stealing, and punching?

James might have incited the incidents, but these boys were the ones to actually demonstrate, CLEARLY, what it means to NOT live by the Scout Oath and Law. The excuse of someone else "making" them act like aggressive bullies does not fly in my book. It was THEIR choice to act the way they did.

GeorgiaMom's link ( http://www.bsaseabase.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_BSA_Units.pdf ) covers the BSA financial bases pretty well.

Many councils have this information on their website (mine has had it for at least the last 10 years).

As the above policies state, units should NEVER use an individual's SS# to get an EIN. Since your Charter Organization will not let you use it's tax ID # for your bank, simply go to the IRS website, fill out form SS-4, and get an ID # for your Pack.

Meanwhile, you might have your Pack's leaders discuss with your Pack's Charter Organization Representative, and Charter Organization Head, what it actually means to charter a BSA unit.

From the BSA New-Unit Application - "The chartered organization selects one of its members to register as chartered organization representative who may also serve as chair or as unit committee member if needed. All units must have a unit leader and a minimum of five paid youth. There must be at least three committee members, with one named chair. Packs must have a den leader/Webelos den leader/Tiger Cub leader who should be registered as an adult in the pack. The chartered organization also provides meeting facilities for the unit. No one may register in more than one position in the same unit, except the chartered organization representative."

So, to register/re-register as a Pack (in addition to 5 paid youth, and 1 den leader) you will need a MINIMUM of -

1 - Cubmaster (CM)

1 - Charter Org Rep (COR) (who is ALSO REGISTERED as Committee Chair (CC) or a Committee Member (MC)

IF THE COR IS DUAL REGISTERED AS A COMMITTEE MEMBER -

1 - Committee Chair

1 - Committee Members

IF THE COR IS DUAL REGISTERED AS THE COMMITTEE CHAIR -

2 - Committee Members

The Committee is responsible for a LOT of things. In my mind, if the Pack is not picking up the tab for their registration costs, the more Committee Members the better. The more folks you have helping out, the lower the chance of burnout of overworked volunteers, and the stronger the Pack.

Bank account access should be limited to the CM, CC, and the Treasurer, with all check/money requests going thru/to the Treasurer. If your COR is very active, you might consider putting the COR on your account also, but to me it is not necessary.

It seems the biggest part of your concern is "voting rights", and "quorum" numbers, per you Pack by-laws. Where do you find BSA National stating that a quorum is necessary, or that there should be any "official" voting (with specific persons not having the right to vote) involved in running a Pack?

The Cubmaster, Committee Chair, den leaders, committee members, and the COR, should all be working TOGETHER. Any issues, problems, questions, should be solved thru discussion, and consensus. If you feel a vote of some kind is really needed, it should be more informal (lets see show of hands kind of thing), with no one excluded.

I really recommend purchasing a copy (or 2, or 3 to spread around) of BSA's "The Cub Scout Leader Book". See page # 87 (2010 version) for a description of the monthly Pack Leaders Planning Meeting.

Webelos resident camp is a different thing entirely. However, there are still youth to adult ratios that must be maintained.

Nope - this has been the guideline for many years -

From the Guide to Safe Scouting -

• A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den/troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.
  

Also from the Guide to Safe Scouting -

If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers.

A convicted felon will - most likely - not pass a background check, and will not be accepted by BSA as a registered leader. However - depending on the circumstances of the conviction, and if the Charter Organization goes to bat for them, a person with a felony conviction in their past - MIGHT - be accepted by BSA as a registered member. Not very probable, but it is possible.

As for banning a felon parent from meetings - BSA says that you can NOT do that to a parent of a youth member.

From the Guide To Safe Scouting - "All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders".

A few things I am curious about -

Did this parent offer up information on his past, and present, activities? How do you know what he was convicted of, when he was convicted, and who he hangs out with? Did you use your law enforcement contacts to look into this man? Have you had him followed? Did you spread the "story" of his past to other families?

If this father is "rallying" parents to help the Troop, that you state has "little to no parental support", why are you so against it? Most Troops that need help would be THRILLED if one parent got the uninvolved parents off their backsides! Yet you are against ANY of the parents actually being involved in their son's Troop.

Gotta say - the whole thing sounds very fishy to me. It sounds like you have a personal issue with the one parent (however stalking, and gossip, is not the way to handle it). It also sounds like you and the other leaders (without any sons in the Troop) are afraid of losing your own personal Scouting group.

He will be 7 years old in May - at the end of kindergarten (or whatever you call it there). At that point he will be eligible to join the Pack as a 1st grade Tiger Cub Scout ALONG WITH THE REST OF HIS CLASSMATES.

He is not currently eligible to join BSA. Don't rush him. Let him join at the end of the school year, with the rest of his school buddies, when they are ALL eligible.

Requirements to charter/re-charter per BSA National -

The chartered organization selects one of its members

to register as chartered organization representative

who may also serve as chair or as unit committee

member if needed. All units must have a unit leader

and a minimum of five paid youth. There must be at

least three committee members, with one named chair.

Packs must have a den leader/Webelos den leader/Tiger

Cub leader who should be registered as an adult in the

pack. The chartered organization also provides meeting

facilities for the unit. No one may register in more than

one position in the same unit, except the chartered

organization representative.

Bottom line - Per National, at minimum, a Troop MUST have 5 paid youth, and 4 registered adults. This Troop has 4 youth, and 3 adults.

It sounds like your council, and it's registrar, have made big time allowances for this Troop. Your might have a talk with your DE about this. I'll bet this has been done to prevent the DE from losing a unit. Remember, their salaries are tied to their numbers (units/youth/adults/$).

Tread lightly.