ScoutNut

Georgiamom, the first problem that you are dealing with is that you have no clue how BSA is put together. In the VAST MAJORITY of cases (yours included) BSA UNITS ARE NOT INDIVIDUAL LEGAL ENTITIES, AND DO NOT FILE INDEPENDANT TAX RETURNS. The only exceptions are those units who (for whatever reason) have filed with the government as an individual not-for-profit organization, and they are very rare indeed.

BSA units (your Pack being one) are NOT owned by your local BSA council. They are owned by, and take their tax status from, their Charter Organizations. In your case - your local PTA. It is up to the PTA to include THEIR BSA unit in their taxes (if they have enough income to even file, many do not).

Please read Pack18Alex above. He has it pretty much on the nose.

Did your local council District Executive act like a jerk? Yep, he sure did. Is that an indictment against the entire, national BSA organization? Of course not.

However, a tidbit that you obviously do not know, the salary of a DE is directly linked to the number of members, AND Charter Organizations, in their District. If the National PTA pulls all charters in your District, not only will a lot of boys be without Scouting, but your DE will be without a job.

So, you had your DE running terrified for his very job. All for, basically, very little cause.

As for your local council office that you found so overly indulgent, do you know for a fact that the council owns the building? Or the land the building sits on? Why do you assume that they paid an extravagant price for their building? Perhaps it was a gift. Perhaps your council got the building at a cut-rate price - because of who they are. For the large "Taj Mahal" type of buildings, many cities have given BSA a permanent, minimal ($1-$5) yearly lease on a municipal space. A BSA council building is, in many cases, it's BIGGEST form of advertisement for the BSA program. You can't be an effective advertisement if no one can see you, or know what you are. Again - NOT EVERY COUNCIL IS THE SAME! My council owns a rather small building. However, we are a rather small council. They are also looking into selling, and renting space, in the future to possibly save some money. Our SE's office is far from "plush". however, yes, it IS larger than the tiny cubicles of the DE's, and it does have an actual door! Perhaps we volunteers should fight to have that door removed! I am sure our DE would love to prop it across the entrance to his cubicle!

Your son's "hard earned popcorn sales" went to help fund YOUR PACK. They also went to help keep your local council camps operating. They helped to fund council/district summer camps, day camps, training expenses, and lots more.

Is BSA perfect? Of course not. However, it might be a good idea to do a bit of research on a problem BEFORE you run around yelling that the sky is falling, when all you have is a bit of loose plaster.

You put the tyvek, which is 12" larger (all around?) than the bottom of the tent under your tent?

Doesn't that tend to cause rainwater to run under your tent?

June 1, is BSA's program year cut-off for Cub Scouts. The Cub Scout program is mainly grade based. Boys move to the next level of Cubs at the end of the school year (whether or not they have earned their Rank Award for their current Cub level). Since School Districts across the country all end their school years on different dates, BSA chose June 1 as the date that their computer system (ScoutNet) automatically moved all registered Cub Scouts to their next Cub level.

BSA allows Cub Scouts who have not completed their level rank award by the end of the school year to take a few extra weeks to complete it. However, this is ONLY for the rank award, and does not include electives or any other awards. Also, Cubs can not work in more than one level at a time. So, if a Cub decides to take time during the summer to complete his rank award he may NOT work on anything in his new Cub level, until he is completely finished with the old.

I would sit down, face to face, with these Grandparents, and the den leader. Show the Grandparents a list of EXACTLY what their Bear Scout needs to complete in order to EARN his Bear Rank Award. Explain the rules. Explain about how we are teaching Character Development. Explain that he must complete ALL of the requirements for an award in order to earn, and receive it.Explain that if their Scout opts to spend his summer working on the Bear rank award, that is fine. However you also need to CLEARLY explain the restrictions involved. NOTHING done during that time will count toward ANY Webelos awards.

Most Cub Scouts I have had this talk to have decided to forget about the "old" award, and focus on their "new", fun, different, level.

You are the Committee Chair (CC) - correct?

You are talking about an overbearing Committee Member?

As CC, talk to your Charter Organization Representative (COR) to make sure of the backing of the Charter Organization (CO), then simply tell the Committee Member that if they can not learn to work well with others their help is no longer needed.

As to "raising up" anything to your DE - what kinds of "accusations" were made?

Anything less than a Youth Protection issue is handled by the owner of the unit - the CO. Even so, all youth protection issues should be taken to the Council Scout Executive (SE), not the District Executive (DE).

If this Committee Member is making untrue youth protection allegations against other leaders that, for me, is reason enough to show them the door and firmly tell them to find a different Pack more to their liking.

No siblings at any of our Summer Camps.

The requirement is NOT to do these things with the Troop you ultimately register with. The requirement is to do these things with A (ANY) BSA Boy Scout Troop.

Heck, while in 4th grade, they could have visited with a Troop on the other side of the country for all you know. It would have been perfectly valid.

I suggest concentrating on the Boy Scout requirements they are currently working on, and not getting your undies in a twist over what MIGHT have happened in a totally different program.

For being "involved" in Scouting for "over 6 years" you never seem to have grasped the concept of how BSA is set up. That could mean you are a Troll, or simply clueless.

The Charter Organization that "owns" your Cub Scout Pack is the ONLY one that has any say in who is, or is not, a member of THEIR unit. The local council will have absolutely nothing to do with the drama between Pack leaders.

Way back when this drama started you should have gone to - First - the Pack's Charter Organization Representative. If that was not an option, then you should have contacted the head of the Charter Organization.

You can still do that IF you want to stay with this particular Pack.

Personally, I say, clean up your laundry, then find a different Pack that is more to your liking.

Just to clarify something - you did NOT send in an application for your son to become a Cub Scout. You filled in an online form to receive more information. Heaven (or Hell) only knows where this information goes, or when/if they will get read/acted on by anyone. Traditionally, e-mail dumps do not get cleared out in a very timely fashion.

The BeAScout site gives you your local council contact information which includes name, address, and phone number. You can call your local council for further information. They should be able to pull up contact information (Cubmaster name/phone) for the Pack you are interested in.

The BeAScout site also shows the name of the Chartering Organization for the Pack.

The Chartering Organization is the community organization which "owns" the BSA Scout unit (Pack / Troop / Team / Crew / Ship). You can do an online search to find contact information on the Chartering Organization, and then call them to get information on their Cub Pack.

Since your son is going into 4th grade, he will be a Webelos Cub Scout. Hopefully, whichever Pack you choose will be active during the Summer so you, and your son, can get to know the folks. Find out if the Pack will be attending any Council Summer Camps. If at all possible, I suggest you get your son to Summer Camp. It will be a great, fun, introduction to Scouts, for him, and you!

Bottom line - the Pack has decided to allocate some of their fundraising monies to individual Cub Scouts.

Those Scouts are granted the ability to use "their" money for any Scout-related purpose they wish.

If the Scout decides to use some of his Scout money to pay for his parents to accompany him to Scout camp, then that is his (or his family's) choice. The Scout, and his family, all know that this choice will leave the Scout with less money. As someone else said, you don't want to get involved in a family squabble.

The only way around this is to state from the beginning that unit funds in an ISA are not to be used by/for anyone but the registered youth member of the unit (Scout). No parents/siblings/friends/etc Exceptions would only be allowed when the Scout is required to have a parent along in order to attend (Tiger program, some Cub camps). Only one parent is eligible to be covered. All exceptions must be approved by the Committee.

Since this Cub Pack has already approved using unit funds to send these parents to camp there is not much that can be done now. I suggest, if you have any input into this Pack, that you push to get the Pack's ISA rules changed as soon as possible.

Some bug repellent, long pants, long sleeves, and socks over pant bottoms, should all help to stop ticks from being a problem.

While a small mirror helps, you can probably feel the tick easier than see it. Self-checking is easier if you use both sight, and touch.

The UU religious awards are now, and will always be, "valid". At least for as long as UU supports these awards.

Religious awards are NOT BSA awards. They are created by the individual religious organizations, for their own youth members, to help them learn about their faith.

The only "validation" that BSA gives religious awards programs is to allow the award (usually a medal) to be worn on the BSA uniform. They can NOT stop youth from earning any religious award they, or their families, wish to.

Also, while BSA might not allow a particular award/medal to be worn on the BSA uniform, the Scout can still wear the BSA purple/silver square knot for earning the religious emblem of his faith.

Son put on all BSA related patches that did not go on the front of his uniform shirt, all participation patches he got for attending Girl Scout events (he was a Girl Scout before he was a Tiger!), and all patches he got/earned (like the Jr Ranger) while doing family stuff.

He had specific spots on his vest for each kind of patch.

My daughter did the same with the back of her Girl Scout vest. She had a spot for BSA participation patches, a spot for the Academic/Sport pins she helped her brother earn (That shows how long ago it was!), and a spot for family activity patches. All along with her Girl Scout participation/special patches.

Not a Scout award, but The National Park Service has the Junior Ranger Program (Some state Parks have a similar program). It is a fun, age-appropriate program for kids to learn about the different National Parks they visit, and earn patches for their "Brag Vest"!

The "system" in place for correcting such errors would vary depending on the council (BSA or GSUSA). However, as you both have noted, the best thing to do is to simply refuse to accept the order.

Why this Girl Scout Troop signed for all of these cases is beyond me. Why their council did not work with them on this is also beyond me.

It is nice to see that a "cookie angel" came thru to take the last of the cookies off their hands. Kudos to these girls for managing to sell 251 cases! I hope they do something FUN with some of that profit!

Nope, not utopic at all. Simply a LOT of hard work.

The Troops that I know of that really worked well (including ours) were the ones that had a core group of parents (moms AND dads) who liked, and respected, each other, worked well TOGETHER, and who believed in what the Scouting program could bring to their kids.

Our girls are all adults now, and Lifetime Girl Scouts. My daughter has abandoned Chicago for the Bay area, perhaps you could move your Troop up there, and persuade her (or my former Boy Scout son who moved out there with her) to help!

If you feel that selling cookies is exploitation, have you offered to open your pocketbook, and fund an entire year of Girl Scouting for your daughter's Troop?

No?

Scouting costs money. It has to come from somewhere.

Have you offered to pay for at least your daughter's costs? How many patches, awards, etc, has she earned? How much has she used in supplies? Does the Troop have to pay any type of rental for their meeting space? Are you charged for the TOTAL cost of any outing attended by your daughter?

No worries!, Perhaps the Planned Parenthood Fairy will drop a bundle of cash on your Troop leader's doorstep! Oh, whoops. Sorry, can't have that now can we.

Seriously, if you have not organized a product sale (cookies OR popcorn) you have NO idea what goes into it or what the kids do, or do not learn.

The GSUSA program, as in ANY youth program, including BSA, is only as good as the volunteers involved. If done correctly the girls learn quite a LOT from product sales. That is why GSUSA National has incorporated it as part of their program.

GSUSA Troop/Groups are YOUTH run from kindergarten thru 12th grade. It is age appropriate, and a learning experience, but even kindergarteners have input in their Troop.

It starts with the girls picking a form of "government" for their Troop, It goes on to the girls deciding what awards they want to earn, and activities they want to do, including service activities. Then the question is how do THEY pay for what THEY want to do. Barring any "Sugar Daddies/Mommies/Mythical Creatures", the answer is usually a combo of dues, and product sales. The GIRLS figure out how much their "year of Scouting" will cost, and how many cookies/candy/calendars/etc, they will have to sell to achieve that goal. They also have to decide what kind of profit they want from the product sales. Do they want a higher Troop profit per item, but no gee gaw incentive awards? Or do they crave the fancy stuff, and stuffed animals, and so opt for a lower Troop profit, which means they will have to sell more to reach their dollar goals? (BTW - while a box of cookies might be easier to sell than a tin/box/bag of popcorn, the profit per box is approximately 13%, not 30%.)

So, up to this point the GIRLS have been involved in (to varying degrees based on age) : politics, researching, goal setting, budgeting, math skills, money management, and time management.

As the product sales approach the GIRLS decide if they want to do booth sales, order-taking, or a combo. If they decide to do booth sales the GIRLS help to decide what product to order, and how much. The GIRLS help decide where/when to hold their booth sales. The GIRLS create advertising for their sale. The GIRLS display their product at the booth. The GIRLS sell the product to their customers.

So, to the above we can add, art skills, imaginative thinking, business skills/ethics, public relations, marketing, customer service, salesmanship, and yes, leadership.

Yes, selling cookies is a National sale. Yes, it is considered a sales PROGRAM, along with being a fundraiser for BOTH the Troop and the Council.

Exploitation - NO. A great learning experience for the girls - YES.

Not every boy starts Scouts as a Tiger, and goes thru Wolf, Bear, Webelos. Some Scouts start when they are older. Yes, there are certain things that BSA would like boys to learn, and that bear repeating, in multiple ways. Law enforcement, and the use, care, and display, of the American flag are two of those. Even for boys who have "done it all before", practice makes perfect, and perhaps the roles that each boy does can be juggled so that everyone gets the full learning experience.

Also, as mentioned by dedkad above, The Bear program is a bit different from Wolf. Bears have choices. They can choose to complete the achievements, and requirements, that interest THEM. For the Bear Country section, Scouts are only required to complete 3 out of 5 Achievements. If you do not want to do - #3 What Makes America Special, and - #7 Law Enforcement Is a Big Job, then don't. Do the others instead. Or simply do not do requirement #3h. Pick other Requirements within the Achievement.

Also, as noted by dedkad, ONLY things done DURING the CURRENT Scout year count against CURRENT Cub requirements. Counting things the boys did last year to fulfill Wolf requirements against this year's Bear requirements is just plain wrong.

Just wondering - What is the EXACT BSA position held by the "Dictator"?

Did the "Dictator" state that the 2 week chore chart MUST be made up of "household" chores (cleaning kitchen counter)?

Bottom line - does the Webelos den leader, or your "Dictator", HAVE to accept only your word that your son has completed any Webelos requirements?

Short answer - NO.

Webelos is not Wolf, or Bear Cubs. Parents are no longer automatically allowed to sign off on any and all requirements. It is now the responsibility of the Webelos den leader to approve ALL WORK. The ONLY time a parent would be allowed to approve work done is if the Webelos den leader has given permission for parents to approve SPECIFIC requirements, and/or badges.

So, YES, if the den leader, or in your case, ACTING, or ASSISTANT den leader ("Dictator"), requests that your SON provide documentation that he has completed certain requirements, it is well within their right to do so.

Especially when you state your son did these requirements over one month ago, but they just started working on Handyman last week.

Stop trying to find a "work around". Have your SON make up a chart showing what he did in the yard each day for those two weeks. Then the person who was supervising his efforts (you or your husband) can sign the chart stating he did the work listed. End of problem.

You might have noticed I have stressed that your SON, do these things. Your son is no longer a Wolf, or Bear Cub. Webelos is a preparation for Boy Scouts, and as such the Scouts are expected to take charge of their own work. It is not up to YOU to provide any needed documentation, it is up to your SON.

As for the belt loop, ask your Webelos den leader to talk to the Cubmaster, or the Pack Advancement Chair, to have the belt loop presented to your son.

I am GSUSA and BSA trained and certified. Most the kids all want to go. The kids all like me because I do all sorts of activities with them and I treat them more like yonng ladies and not helpless children . That is not the problem it is 100% parents and Leadership. And nobody but me is willing to step up. I do not want the risk of leading the troop with out parental support and backup.

It seems your mind is made up. I hope you find an alternate program that meets your needs.

Good luck ! Post to let us know where you end up.

BSA and GSUSA have DIFFERENT RULES AND REGULATIONS. - They are DIFFERENT PROGRAMS!

 

Sorry, the expectation of mirror programs just irritates the heck out of me!

 

Camping in kindergarten - AS WITH BSA, the GSUSA program is AGE APPROPRIATE. Kindergarteners do NOT camp OVERNIGHT. They can, however, do day trips , and tons of other activities.

 

While GSUSA is right up there with BSA as far as age-appropriate activities for the different GSUSA levels, they differ on what is considered age-appropriate. GSUSA allows it's girls to camp - WITHOUT - parents as young as FIRST GRADE. Cub Scouts can NOT do that.

 

However, like Cub Scouts (and other BSA units) what the girls do depends a LOT on how comfortable the LEADERS are with a particular activity.

 

If the leaders in your girl's GSUSA Troop are not comfortable in the outdoors, or camping, then they will not encourage the girls to do those things.

 

If your DAUGHTER wants to do camping with her Troop, SHE needs to do a couple of things.

 

1) SHE needs to talk to the rest of the girls, and garner support for her activity from the rest of her Troop.

2) SHE needs to get support from ADULTS who will be willing to take them camping (YOU?).

3) SHE needs to talk to her Troop leader(s) and tell them what the TROOP wants to do.

 

So, instead of transferring programs, and taking all learning/growing opportunities away from your daughter, support/teach her how to make changes to HER TROOP'S program.

 

This is another difference between BSA, and GSUSA. BSA waits until the boys are in 6th grade to give them any say in their program. GSUSA starts that (age-appropriately), with the girls in kindergarten.

 

So, bottom line. Put up - or bail out.

 

It seems you are opting for the bail out option. I hope you enjoy YOUR Scouting experience.

You stated in your OP that your daughter is a Junior Girl Scout. Juniors are in 4-5th grade. At that age they are plenty old enough to know what they want, and to be making their OWN decisions about THEIR Troop.

Again, it might work better if your DAUGHTER talks to the other girls to get them on board with HER ideas (they ARE hers right?).

You said that you had a "few takers" for the trip to the mountains. That means that there are at least a few girls that are interested in doing more things. Have your DAUGHTER talk to them for a start.

Have you taken any GSUSA training at all? Camping training specifically? In order to take girls out camping (with, or without parents in attendance) you MUST have camping trained folks running the show.

You also stated that you refuse to do anything unless it is in a Mommy and Me format. Why? Girls in 4-5th grade need to start gaining independence. Again - THIS IS NOT CUB SCOUTS! The GSUSA program is NOT built around family. We learned early on with our Girl Scout Troop that having a bunch of untrained, helicopter, parents along on all trips, and outings, prevented the girls from getting the most out of the program.

If you want to help make Girl Scouting work for your daughter you need to -

1) GET TRAINED

2) Find other girls, and their families, who are interested in the things your daughter is. Or girls/parents who are at least willing to try different things.

3) Together with some moms who would like to help their daughters have a different Girl Scout experience - Start your own GSUSA Troop.

I'm sorry but I can't see how a organized Pack can effectively operate with Dens meeting once a month. We meet weekly with Pack meetings every other month. Between pinewood derby work shops, weekend outings, overnights and comunity service projects we have an extremely busy year and that not counting the summer event and Parents Meetings (Pack Commitee Meetings). We have a busy year ( 12 months) and we have about a 99% den meeting attendance and about 70% outing attendance so our parents understand the commitment. All our boys meet rank requirements and end up with other awards that we have time to perform through the year. One example this summer we will meet as a group and do the World Conservation Award. I've also found if you make the meetings fun for the parents along with the kids you get more family involvement which equals better attendance. I have had numerous parent tell me they look forward to meeting nights.

Perhaps in the same way that your Pack operates with only having a Pack meeting every OTHER month?

Neither of these ways is how BSA has written the Cub Scout program to operate. Yet, they seem to work (to varying degrees) for these "rogue" units (yours included!).

Tigers are G-R-R-R-R-R-R-E-A-T !!!!

BSA and GSUSA have DIFFERENT RULES AND REGULATIONS. - They are DIFFERENT PROGRAMS!

Sorry, the expectation of mirror programs just irritates the heck out of me!

Camping in kindergarten - AS WITH BSA, the GSUSA program is AGE APPROPRIATE. Kindergarteners do NOT camp OVERNIGHT. They can, however, do day trips , and tons of other activities.

While GSUSA is right up there with BSA as far as age-appropriate activities for the different GSUSA levels, they differ on what is considered age-appropriate. GSUSA allows it's girls to camp - WITHOUT - parents as young as FIRST GRADE. Cub Scouts can NOT do that.

However, like Cub Scouts (and other BSA units) what the girls do depends a LOT on how comfortable the LEADERS are with a particular activity.

If the leaders in your girl's GSUSA Troop are not comfortable in the outdoors, or camping, then they will not encourage the girls to do those things.

If your DAUGHTER wants to do camping with her Troop, SHE needs to do a couple of things.

1) SHE needs to talk to the rest of the girls, and garner support for her activity from the rest of her Troop.

2) SHE needs to get support from ADULTS who will be willing to take them camping (YOU?).

3) SHE needs to talk to her Troop leader(s) and tell them what the TROOP wants to do.

So, instead of transferring programs, and taking all learning/growing opportunities away from your daughter, support/teach her how to make changes to HER TROOP'S program.

This is another difference between BSA, and GSUSA. BSA waits until the boys are in 6th grade to give them any say in their program. GSUSA starts that (age-appropriately), with the girls in kindergarten.

So, bottom line. Put up - or bail out.

It seems you are opting for the bail out option. I hope you enjoy YOUR Scouting experience.

The Rank award is just that - an award. Advancement in Cub Scouts is a whole 'nother animal. Advancement happens at the end of the school year (BSA uses June 1) when the boys change grade levels, no matter what, if any awards they have earned. To that end we have always kept our award recognition ceremonies, entirely separate from our advancement (graduation) ceremony.

Our dens meet weekly. Those meetings are usually 2 den, 1 outing, and 1 Pack meeting per month. Sometimes there will be extra activities thrown in as well. We use our B&G as a goal to be completed with all requirements for the rank awards. That is reasonable goal, and gives everyone a time frame to work toward. It Is, however, not set in stone.

We do award ceremonies monthly. Mostly they are for small accomplishments/awards. Rank awards get the bigger, fancier, ceremonies. The major one is held in February, at our B&G, but we can/have done them at other times when a Scout has completed the requirements (usually later, rarely earlier).

Even when the rank awards are completed in February, there is plenty for the boys to do/earn for the rest of the year.

Come the end of May - beginning of June, we hold our last Pack meeting of the Scout year. At that meeting we will first do ceremonies to present any final awards earned. After all awards have been presented, we hold our "Graduation" ceremony and move our Cubs from their current, to their next Scout level.

There have been times when Cubs have not finished the requirements for their rank awards. BSA allows some extra time to complete those requirements (for the RANK award ONLY, no others including Electives). We explain that the Scout can only work in ONE level at a time, and that until he has finished work on his current (old) rank award requirements, he can not work on anything at his new Cub level.

If any did choose to stay at their "old" level to work on their rank award we would have included them in the Graduation ceremony. They would have received their new necker, and slide, but their new Handbook would be held until the first den meeting of the new school year. They would then have their rank award ceremony at either our end of summer picnic, or the September Pack meeting (Scout's choice).

No boy has ever taken us up on the added time. They are ready for the new stuff, and are really not that excited about the bling. That is all the parents.

While SPL/PL should a Scout's priority be to the troop/patrol' date=' and should he not be attending events as part of the Crew instead? If an SPL/PL doesn't attend campouts, can he still say he fulfilled his POR?[/quote']

 

A Troop (or any other BSA unit) can not dictate what it's member's can, or can not, do outside of that unit. A Troop can not (or should not) tell it's members that the "Troop always comes first". That is wrong.

 

However - if a youth has a leadership position in a specific group and an activity with that group conflicts with an activity in another group (where he/she holds no leadership position), it is better form for the youth to attend the activity that they are expected to give leadership to. This holds for ALL types of groups, Scouting, and non-Scouting.

 

This is yet another way for a youth to learn, and grow. If a commitment has been made to serve as a leader on an activity,and a youth, for whatever reason, can not fulfill that commitment, then he is/should be held responsible to find a replacement, and/or make alternate arrangements so that the rest of the members are not left in the lurch. Failure to do that will bring consequences. The youth learn thru those consequences.

And just to be clear - Those consequences should not be things like adults withholding rank advancement, or otherwise penalizing the youth for not putting the Troop as #1 at all times. They should be more along the lines of - The rest of the youth deciding at the next election cycle that they want a leader who actually does his job. Or the rest of the youth picking a different leader for the next activity. Or the leadership position be terminated because of non-performance (expectations of performance should be CLEARLY spelled out at the beginning of the leadership term).

 

A "natural" consequence. You show that you can not be trusted to hold up your end of things, you lose the confidence, trust, and backing, of the rest of the group.