Scoutfish

I'm directing this at EVERYBODY: And the OP is definitely a troll. So what makes somebody a troll? No, I am not asking what a troll is...I already know that. But what makes you decide somebody is a troll? From the comments in this forum, a troll seems to be somebody who asks something that irritates the general membership AND that "something" is a subject that has been covered before. WEll, that logic is total crap! And I'll tell you why. First, I do not say that with a hatefull or angry tone, just saying it is what it is. I have been a member of this forum for a short time. Extremely short compared to some of you. I have not even seen but a speck of what has been talked about or covered in this forum. Quite often, I see a post where somebody asks or talks about something, and a long timer will say act all huffy and over dramatically put out because the exact same subject has been covered before. Maybe you talked about ir 4 years ago. So? I wasn't here 4 years ago. I have no idea who asked what, who talked about what, or who got their man panties all bunched up over it. All I know is that I might ask a similar or even the exact same question next week because - as it concerns me or my life - it is a brand new, never been encountered , new to me subject. Now, I know some of you think it's my job to scan every single past post anfd comment to screen it and make sure it's not been covered before. But what if...in my opinion...I have a different twist or different set of circumstances concerning my question? How about when a long time scouter says I need to get trained..and yet if THEY loked back at all my previous posts..they would see I AM trained. But I suppose that would mean that everybody would have to have the knowledge that not every single training on a particular subject is handled the same way. Kinda like some troops are adult led while other are boy led. Kinda like pack A only pack camps while pack B council camps. Basically, what I am saying is that alot of you think Tuoc Syag is a troll because you have talked about this before. Really? Does he know that? Has he been hanging out for the last ten years or so? The last 5? Or is it possible that he might be a new member who didn't read the joining requirement for scouter.com that says: "You must read all posts and make sure your forum subject has NEVER EVER been discussed before, in order to post it." Again, not saying this with an angry, hatefull or mean tone. Just saying that not everybody sees, thinks or posts with same mentality as everybody else. I myself have no idea what people talked about before I joined, who stood on which sie of iyt, or who got angry, sad, laughed or cried over it. And honestly, if anybody is soooo sick and tired of something, use that mouse thingy and change the page or website. As I see it, Tuoc Syag asked an honest question. He may or may not like the replies, but that doesn't make it any less of a question just because we don't like the subject or heard it before. Just like scouting: just about the time you trhink a particular event is just old news and are tired of it...a brand new set of Tiger Cubs or Boys Scouts come along who have NEVER seen it before. To them, it's brand spanking new.

"Oak Tree, the paper work is part of the job, its covered in the BSA specifics training material" That may be true, but the problem is, most people sign up, THEN take training. Most people do not or can not see the training until AFTER they are signed up. And then, you are assuming that they were told of this to start with. And that depends on what the existing leadership explains, tels, or says to recruit new volunteer. In our pack, we had people volunteer for a position, then dissapear. Of course, the didn't mind running around the community bragging on their chair position. Have a lady take over as advancement registrar. Got her all signed up, got the web sites and passwords loaded into her computer. Didn't see her but 3 times the whole year..one of those days was 2 weeks before the end of the season and she turns in 26 items of belt loops, pins and acheivements/electives that her son "accomplished" ...even though he showd up no more than her. Of course, she plugged them all in on packmaster becausethat was her position. Meanwhile, the advancement chair had to go and fill in everything for the rest of the boys. Me personally, I want somebody who ia around and willing to help out. They don't have to have a 5 page list of training or years of experience to actually be able to help. Of course, you all know how it is..the same handfull are the one who always show up,always work, and can be counted on. 20% working for the other 80%.

Now, I have only been in scoutting for 3 years, but I am definantly wondering why B&G is considered the end all of Cubs. Why is it that everybody expects all Cub Scouting to end at B&G? I mean, it's a BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION! It is not G&A (graduate and advance) is is not crossover, and it is not listed in any end of rank requirements nor listed as an entry option/requirement/ date for Boy Scouts. So how it it a birthday became an exit event. To me and most of the members of our pack, B&G is just another reason to get together, have a skit or two, maybe hand out a special award or two and most importantly ...eat some food and enjoy some fellowship. Our DL's do not look at B&G as any kind of date that makes or breaks the scout year nor do they see that date as the point at which rank has to be reached. I mean, Scout Sunday is coming up, why not fret about wether scouts have received their religious awards yet? Won't be long at all before many scouts go to fall camps within the pack or at council/distric....yet nobody sees this as a "earn by" date for conservation or outdoor awards. Dose anybody look at their kids on their 18 birthday and say: "You should be moved out and own your own home now!" OR By 21 birthday: "You ought to be finished dating and getting married by now." OR By 25 birthday: "You should have at least one kid by now." I mean, Blue and Gold is JUST a birthday event. It's about BSA being around for "X" number of years. Not B&G&E (Blue and Gold and Exit).

"......ribbons for tieing your shoes..." WHAT? Somebody owes me some ribbons! What we do in our pack is this: If the ribbopns get to be too much and the flag is top heavy, we strip it down to the year that our current 2nd year Webelos were Tigers. That makes sense? It doesn't read the say way I say it out loud. Whenever we have to strip it down, we only keep the ribbons from the past 5 years . That way the oldest scouts can still see ribbons from their first active ( Tiger) year.

That is just so........creepy! I swear i heard tenticleish sucking and sninewy noises through the door while standing outsside the SE's office back when I was turning in some adult applications to the registrar a month ago. And I do remeber the DE and DC once saying our Council SE came form Washington or Oregon state!

Tonight, I went to my first District Scout Banquet dinner. Pretty much what I thought it would be too. HBut first I have to give props to the North East Cape Fear District ( of Cape Fear Council - NC) Pack 220 for cooking a great dinner! Anyways, after the banquet, I had to run over to Wal-Mart to pick up a few things. So there I was, in my full CubMaster uniform and with my red jacket and had barely made it through the outer doors when a man who appeared to be in his 40's walks up to me, holds out his hand and shakes it. He said : "Thanks for all the great memories!". We talked a few minutes and he tells me he's originally from Fla ( I live in NC)and had a blast as a scout as a youth. WEll, it's obvious that he's a "little bit" older than me, so we know I didn't influence/mentor him. But a scouter is a scouter ,right? So I walk farther into the store and at the jewelry counter, another guy walks up, asks me if I am an Eagle Scout, and I say no, I'm just a CM, etc... He walks over and shakes my hand. Says he was an Eagle Scout, started as a Tiger and ended up in the Marine Corps. Has 2 boys who were scouts and 1 grandson who is a Wolf. He then says to me: " I just want to thank you because it's people like you who made me what I am." Aparently, he lived in a low income/ high crime/ gang area as a kid, and scouting kept him away from that influence. In the electronic dept, I met another guy who said that he was proud of me for making my contribution and that scouting was great for him. He had to be at least 20 years older than me. So..3 different guys who are total strangers and as old as or older than me , but stepped out of their way to thank me - even though I never met them or worked with them. The only tie was scouting and they were proud and admiresome of the fact that I was in scouts too. Does Scouting make a difference? You bet it does!(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

yeah...about 100 boxes for $35.00 Ooops! You know what I really meant! But what a great deal it was! Now,I not saying one's paperwork is better or easier than the other. Not my point and I don't even care. We used to sell a ton of $5.00 boxes and we sold a grossly enormous amount of individual microwave packs for $1.00 I would even bet that over half of those single packs went straight into the garbabe, but people have no problem giving away a dollar or even five. But try selling a $20.00 2 qt tin of popcorn when the person can go to Wal-Mart, K-Mart, or any drug store and get a 5 gallon can of 3 flavor popcorn for $4.00 WE made more money off selling the dollar packs and $5.00 packs than we even come close to now. Sure, people don't mind donating, but they don't want to donate a whole days worth of meal money. The main point I was making is this. You get a box of cookies for $3.50. Doesn't matter what flavor it is. In BSA you can this flavor A only in this size, but not that size unless you get a double A/B flavor. Go bigger and more $$ and you can also choose from flavor C. But if you want flavor A and C , you have to buy the ultra home mortgage size community A/B/C package. Or you find a girl scout and hand her $10.50 and get three equal size boxes of flavor A, B , and C Seriously, which line do you think the customers like better?

Anybody buying any Girl Scout cookies? You see the order form? Makes you wonder why BSA If your not familiar with the GS cookies..or rather, trhe order form..It's so amazingly simple that you almost want to slap yourself. They have a list of the different types of cookies. No matter which box or flavor you buy, it's $3.50. Two boxes are $7.00 4 boxes are $14.00 You buy in a box at a time quantity, You can buy 100 boxes for $35.00 Simple form, simplre math, beautifully attractive pricing..and let be honest and face the truth......those cookies taste 100 times better than than the best popcorn flavor. But back to the point: A box is $3.50. You oder as many boxes as you want for $3,50 each. Simple as that. Taste or flavore issues aside.....hy can't popcorn be that easy?

If you thought there was racing and competition at a Pine Wood Derby...just wait. If not held back, those scouts will cover 800 houses in a day. There is the competition of who can do the most houses, who can go from house to housr quicker, who can go to the house with the cooest car out front, and who can pet the dog first. The biggest thing I do is try my best to get them to say "Yes sir/maam" and "thank you" even if people are not interested. I also told the scouts that if people ask what S4F is, it's easier to just say" We are collecting EXTRA food for those who may not have any" ..amnd leave it at that.

Here's something to consider, and consider with a great deal of thought, compassion and understanding on the part of youth: believing in God and having faith. Now, before you object, take a moment to put your own thoughts, opinions and PERSONAL BELIEFS aside long enought to make a proper judgement on what other people have a right to have - namely, their own PERSONAL beliefs. You ever have to set your kid straight about lying? Sure you have. You ever "just know" that somebody is lying , even though you have no proof. And what about the folks who have seen UFO's, elvis or even bigfoot. Total crackpots right? Why? And just how do we know that the7y havent seen bigfoot, Elvis or green men in silver catsuits? Because we havent seen them ourselves. Now, getting to the point of what I am talking about. Starting at a very early age, kids learn from us that , basically, if you do not have proof, then it's not real. IE: No monster in the closet, no tidybowl man, no aliens, no make believe friends. No proof - not real. WE as parents can't see, feel , or hear them..so they are not real. But then we tell them about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, The Sandman , and who knows who else...just to one day tell them they are old enough to longer believe in that nonsense. The very same nonsense WQE TAUGHT and WE PUSHED onto them. We did everything we could to make them believe it, then patronizingly tell them they are foolish for doing it when they are older. We tell them that people who believe in UFO's and bigfoot are crackpots because....well if for no other reason, we didn't ever see it ourselves. Now the kicker! We expect them to have total reverence, respect, and the upmost love for somebody they can not see, do not actually have proof of, and as far as they truely know...is only talked about by people and written in books without any photographic or scientific proof of. So why should they believe in God and believe he exists? Because we said so. Just like we said so about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, The sandman, and whoever else you might have said in fun or tradition. So here's the cunundrum for some youth: This guy is real, even though there is no proof...you just have to have faith. You had better believe lest you get nasty looks and get shuned by many. Nobody has actually seen him or heard him speak. And the only proof they have is "faith". That other guy ( Santa Claus) isn't real, and if you really think so, you will get nasty looks, shunned and possibly a free white jacket that keeps your arms all snug at your sides. Doesn't matter that there are pictures of him and that people still PUSH him on their kids every year. At one point in your life, you are expected to have two different outcomes based on the exact same set of factors. So why do we get bent all out of shape over a scout (who is under age 18 , by the way, and not a legal adult) who isn't sure, or thinks differently than us? And by bent out of shape, I mean we tend to get nasty, look down our noses and generally show disgust at a non adult because they are not so sure about what to think or believe. We tell them to belive something and come up with every plausible reason and make up "facts" to support Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, then we tell them to stop beliveing because it is childish and well..foolish. Then we expect them to believe something else under the exact set of parametres, and get angry if they are reserves or skeptical? Again, this is not my belief system. I believe in God. Just saying though, instead of acting unscoutlike when somebody professes to be athiest or agnostic...maybe we should stop and consider as to what circumstances brought them to the conclusuions they have. Just saying that it's ahrd to tell your son that he is just too smart to believe in Santa - when he had no knowledge of him until you put it there ( and backed up with movies, pictures , maybe even a mall visit and picture) , and then blast him for not sharing or believing your faith when he doesn't have the "poof" than he had of Santa. So maybe we ought to just take it a bit easy on a kid who says he's athiest or not sure what to belive. Afterall, he's still just a kid. The same kids who like this girl today and that girl tommorrow. The same kid that's gonna be an astronaught on Monday, a Cowboy on Tuesday, a racecar driver on Wednesday, a soldier on Thursday, etc....

I hope zi didn't sound like I accused you of doing the same thing as the ex scout turned Eagle. That wasn't my intent. Like I said, on the surface I would do what you said to doz: Turn the money over to the intended and advertised benefactor. But my overall observations about lying ( or simply put...dishonesty) are that it's a very very wide, tpic and the bounderies are not only fuzzy, but complicated by things such as lifestyle, economic class, locale and religious (or non) beliefs. For example: Does it bother you to find/make/earn extra money and not claim it on taxes like you are supposed to ( assuming it's a big enough sum) ? Or do you figure that you have paid a fair share of taxes all your life, that many who work the system pay too little or none, ands that congressmen waste so much and earn WAY TO MUCH..that your little bit doesn't matter? Not saying you are right or wrong because there are so many different ways to look at it from so many different and equally correcy viewpoints based on the parameters I mentioned above. Maybe you find $10,000 in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Maybe it's dropped drug money. If you turn it in, nobody (connected to it) will claim it, so why not give it to a church, council or keep it and use it for good purposes..right? That would be doing something good out of bad, but is it honest if you don'tturn it in to the police who will submit it as evidence which mean that at some point down the road, it COULD become property of the state and stand a good chance of becoming a pork barrle incentive ( total waste). Tough call on lying itself...but I think you did the right thing with the scout in question.

Well...it's a tough call. There is no standard operating procedure for lying as each one has to be individually judged on it's own unique situation. Know what I mean. I come home from work one day and my wife is wearing a new sweater and a new pair of pants she bought. Maybe even spent an hour fixing her hair and makeup. She asks me what I think. Now, I'm thinking the clothes are atrocious and her makeup is way over the top ( my persoan opinion), and I don't like the way she did her hair. Am I gonna tell her? Oh hell no! I tell her she looks nice. And leave it at that. Telling the truth will not benefit anybody, but will result in hurt feelings. Nothing good would come of the tructh. Same scenario: Your 6 year old daughter draws you a picture for your birthday. Looks like a box of crayons threw up. She asks you if you like it. No doubt you tell her it's absolutely beautiful. Another lie technically, but is it really a bad thing? In your case, seems like the scout took care of the "what do we do about it" part of the issue. He removed himself from your unit. Sure, the other unit may just see giving ( and I mean giving, not earning) him eagle as another tick mark on the "look how great a unit we have" scorecard. But it's no longer your concern nor do you have a dog in that fight. The only thing you could do is approach council about it , but that would only ,make you look petty and say nothing good or bad about the scout. But lets lok at another facet of this issue: "We made it clear that he would have to make amends for his actions by turning the money over to the benefiting organization and starting over on his fundraising,..." On the top, I agree with this and support it.Money going where it was claimed to be by the youth. But technically, it's confiscating money that a youth stole (under false pretenses) and trying to make good of something bad. The technically correct thing to do would be to return the money to the original donor and then see what they want to do. And I say that because I myself may not just give cash to any group, but be willing to support another group that has plans for a specific benefit to the 1st organazation. That make sense? I might not give cash to a neighboring unit because I know they just blow it on frivilous things, but I would give $$ to 3 or 4 scout dads who are specifically planning on buying a new aluminum PWD track and donating it to that unit. In that way, I know the unit will be getting something usefull and not spending the money on things that some of our (former) leaders used to do - specifically- two ran a catering buisness, so when they did something as unit leaders, they added "catering costs" to reimbursement reciepts. They felt they shouls make money on cooking for the unit. And I am talking campouts where all leaders cooked, but these two thought they ( and only they) were due compensation because it's what they did for a living. Anyways, like I said, each and every case has to be judged and handles on it's own unique merits.

007, "1. Keep the debate honest. 2. Treat each other with respect. ... basically, act Scout like." Terry's rules are about the thread, not about people's lives outside the thread. Technically, the Op is not lying IN THE THREAD, but the thread honestly and openly talks about lying outside the thread. The thread is not the lie, but ABOUT the lie, which completely follows Terry's rules. But some of the responces, althoughhonest, are less than scoutlike in nature. Same answer could be written in a nicer- yet still honest way. Tact. That's all, just a little tact

Tuoc Syag, First I am going to defend you based on my own principles: "and who are sure they can convince the world of it through sheer force of will. And to that, all I can say is that such a strategy rarely works. " Reminds me of the early settlers who tarred, feathersd and publicly beat people in public for not being "proper Christains. Remember the stocks in town squares? Also reminds me of the Salem Witch Trials where so many people were killed because of their "wrong" beliefs. And the only proof was somebody accussed them. Indians were masacred under this line of thinking. They were labeled Savages and devils because they did not think our way. "What exactly were you thinking for the five years between ages 13 and 18 when you held up your right hand and promised to do your "duty to God"?" Can't be much different than scout leaders who sign their application and promise to abide by all of BSA's rules, regulations , and code of conduct..... then add to requirements, change rules and procedures, are in adult lead troops, who are cub leaders for the benefit of their own child only, who fight and bicker over who is most moral and who is the most Christian. Now Tuoc Syag, I do have to ask though,and it is an honest question..... Why be a part of a groupthat doesn't agree with your line of thinking or your beliefs? Even saying you like the leadership experience you get from it, that experience is based on bexperience gained froma group who doies not think like you or allow your type of thinking or beliefs. Not saying either line of thought isright or wrong, just saying they are corrosive to each other. Personally, I have no issue with your moral character at all. But stop and ask yourself this: What if one of your friends just up and says :"Hey, I have lied to you all trhe time we have been friends. I do not share the same beliefs as you and do not feel the same way as you, I just used you because you got me acces to ( just an example ,okay?) the school audio/video room. " Then that friend asks you if you think he is ideal friend material. You get what I am saying? You are telling somebody you basically been lying or cheating them of the truth, then ask if they trust you. You can't realistically expect to get praise or a pat on the back. And let me say this: I am not anti gay, nor am I anti athiest.

I think it odd that a troop take ownership of a crossover ceremony as the crosing originates fromthe scout sie. It is a transition from Cubs to Boys, not just a "welcome to the troop" ceremony. Now, our pack has a two part AOL/ crossover ceremony. First, scouts who have earned trhe AOL are brought upand recognized and presented with an AOL award and or plaque. Moms are given a mother's pin. Dads are shafted because all the get are a handshake. After we are done with AOL, we begine the crossover ceremony which is handled by either a goup of OA boys or just boys who volunteer from the CO troop. THose boys are presented with a Scout book by their Webelos den leader. Boys who crossover , do so with their parents. First the boy crosses over, then the parents follow. The scout are greeted by the troop to which they are joining - who presents them with the troop necker. About a month later, at our pack campout, we have a graduation ceremony for all scouts who are graduation fron their current rank. They may or may not continue next year. Who knows if they will, but graduation is about completion of the rank you were in, and nothing at all with what you are doing next. WE have a bridge which is distinctively different from the crossover bridge. Scouts line up ( by den) and as they reach the foot of the bridge, their current rank neckers are removed. As they cross the bridge, their names are anounced. When they step off the other side, they stand in a line as a den and have the DL tie on their new neckers. Then the DL anounces the newest members of "X" rank.

5 LANE PINEWOOD DERBY TRACH????? THAT'S SACRILEGE!!!!

Gift cards are a great idea, and can be more useful instead of things they might not need/ have a place to store/or less important. Remember top tos in a few for a drugstore too. For the more personal item you don't always think about such as prescriptions and toiletries, OTC meds, etc...

Just saying: While one scout may look at that shadow box and see it like a big ole trophy, another may think no more of it than mom saving every kindergarten drawing or every one of those bead and thimble Christmas ornaments we made in the 70's...ATROCIOUS! A scout may not think a career arrow is the same as a 30" tall gold plated tiered trophy, but mosyt of them still think it's cool just for the arrow factor. And the whoile arrows, Indian lore and such only get deeper and more frequent in boy scouts right? That's not even counting OA or dance teams. I did forget to add in my ealier post, we tie a feather or two to the arrows with leather string too. Takes about a minute per arrow.

Wel, call us lazy or call us cheap, but we have about an entire 20 minutes worth of effort per career arrow. We clear coat our arrows forst. Witha foam brush, it takes an entire 20 seconds to clear coat the arro. Then we stab the tip (which isn't clear coated) into a piece of styrofoam to hold it until dry. While it is drying, we are spending another entire 20 seconds clear coating the next arrow. Usually, there are only around 8 to 12 boys who are crossing over, but sometimes as many as 20. Usually, there are 2 or 3 of us working on them, so in a matter of 2 minutes, all arrows are clear coated and left alone to dry. We'd probablt even be faster if we didn't fall prey to jaw jacking and coffee tracking. We give trhe arrows 24 hours to dry. Next time we mess with the aroows, we rub them with steel wool to smooth out the clear coat. Maybe 30 seconds per arrow. Then we wipe them with a dry papertowl for ...I don't know...4 seconds? Next, we tape the arrows off into 4 sections with only one section exposed at a time. The others are covered with newspaper. This takes around a minute and a half. Then we spray paint the 1st section with the appropriate rank paint. 10 seconds ..possibly 15. Then stick it in styrofoam again to dry for an hour or so. Times are greatly reduced by warmer temperature and sunlight. Can possibly be dry in 10 minutes. Now, keep in mind that with 2 or 3 of us doing it, One person uses steelwool and wipes it off, then hands it to the next guy who tapes it offand newspapers whichever section, and he hands it off to the guy who paints them. So we are working together on this which saves alot of time. When that paint is dry, we tape off two sections (usually opposite ends) paint two colors and let them dry. This takes up an entire minute. Next time around, only 1 section left. WE uses gold and silver vinyl pinstriping to make arrowpoint lines and we use either and paint them purple for Religious, green for leave no trace, etc... The srtiping takes about 4 or 5 minutes depending on the scout. The mounting board is a 3/4" X 3 1/2" by 30" piece of pine wood. We take a 16' piece of board and run it through the chop saw. then hit it with a palm sander, blow the dust off and use a foam brush to smear stain on it. Looking at about 10 minutes to make 12 boards. Again, this is with 3 people. The boards are done until we mount the arrows with hot glue gun which takes about 8 seconds each. "But for real, where's the program basis for this? Which core value does all this effort support?" The same value that having a crossover ceremony or AOL ceremony supporets. I mean, what core value do those ceremonies support? Nothing, but the ceremony is a recognition for being in, sticking with, and fufilling the values. It's a history of what you did. It has the same value as clapping when a scout gets reconized at a pack meeting. "And everyone, regardless of Arrow of Light or joining the troop, were given a shadow box for all their Cub Scout memorabilia." Great idea! I really like it, but how does that support anything more than a carrer arrow?

What I have seen is pretty much what ScoutNut describes. Cubs who are crossing over get Career Arrows. They are wooden arrows mounted to a long retangular stained board. The arrows are divided into 4 colors ( orange, yellow, light blue, dark blue) to represent the ranks of Cub Scouting and have silver ang gold stripes within each color to represent arrow points or compass points earned during that rank. Extra stuff like colord tassles dangling within in a color may represent special awards. Arrow of Light Awards are the same as above, BUT ... have an added gold sunray, or sunlight design added to the top of and the whole length of the retangular board that the arrow is mounted to.

"And when I politely tell them that I wouldn't care to buy anything from their angels, they take it as a personal slap in the face." Tell me about it. I also hate that if I get approached on Thursday about buying "X" and it's "The absolute last and final day lest they pull our fingernails out" to buy product "X". Sorry,I don't have the extra cash til FRIDAY when we both get paid. Figure that I get paid bi-weekly, then every other week, I am strecthed thin. Then the seller stomps off in a huff!

Definantly adults! 99% of all issues originate because of adults. 1% due to scouts. But of the one percent of scout issues, 99% of those 1 % could be traced back to the adults in some shape, form or way!

Okay, I didn't buy the "real" Jac-Shirt because it's tough to justify throwing down $100.00 for a coat when I already have 3. I wanted a red BSA one bcause...well...I just wanted it to wear to RT and other meetings. Yep, proud to be a scouter, but still can't justify $100.00 for a coat. So instead I bought the lined and insulated red windbreaker from the scout shop instead. Cost me a whole $14.00 on sale. So here's my question: It came with the universal BSA emblen( stuck to cardboard that hangs from collar on a string) on a red background. Noticing that commissioners wear a commissioner patch instead of the BSA patch...I was thinking of sewing a CubMaster patch on instead. Figured that I wouldn't lead anybody to thinking I was part of a troop either by doing this. So, while I am not really worried about somebody being insulted by this...I do want to try to be correct in doing it. I mean,just because 1 person doesn't like it won't stop me, but if it's flat out really not correct, I'll just use the universal emblem instead. So?(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

"Scout fish, how do you accommodate for the fact that your webelos are gone in the spring when it comes to the fundraiser?" The fundraiser is before crossover. The Webelos work it too selling tickets or serving food plates. Spring isn't so much an exact date, but general time of year. But if the webelos are gone by then, then they are less that have to be funded. But they did work it all the previous years. "Aside from the fact that we wouldn't have the funds to carry us through to spring, this seems to be the biggest inhibitor to a spring sale." We made a little over $5,000.00 clear profit at our last fundraiser. Now, this is not our entire budget. We still charge a minimal fee for camping $20.00 per scout and $5.00 per parent to cover cost of facility rental, food, and materials at pack camping at other facilities, $5 per scout and parent whehn camping at the CO to cover food costs. We charge $40.00 per scout yearly dues [ %15.00 per council fee, $5.00 council insurance, $20.00 to the pack for supplies, badges, awards, materials, etc...] Scouts pay their own was to council camp or cover it from scout accounts from selling popcorn. Now, I would like to see the popcorn dates moved to a different time of year, but once you've been in it a while, it's not the same sudden overload and shock to new scouts and new parents. Another down side to popcorn being sold when itis..is that alot of big store are already breaking out the holiday season candy. Go to Wal-Mart, K-Mart, or Target and get a 5 gallon can of 3 flavor popcorn for $3.00 Or buy a 20oz box of single flavor for $25.00 Guess where over half of potential customers buy their popcorn.

Not sure about your council's timeframefor selling, but ours starts right betrween the start of schol and roundup. Basically, parents just got finished with spending a bunch of money from three paychecks in a row for new school supplies, scghool fees, school pictures, school uniforms( where required) or just new clothes, sports uniforms,. band equipment, booster/ key club fees, etc.. Then- if they are new, they go to a roundup at school put on by a DE who then tells them they owe "X" dollars for council fees, insurance and "If you want, we have Boy's Life" ...which is described as being extremely vital for a scout to even survive being a scout. A week or so later, they go to the pack of their choice where they hear about den dues, pack dues, recharter fees coming up in a few months, the cost of uniforms and books, etc... It's enough to make you pull your hair out and your checkbook catch on fire. Oh wait..did we mention we sell popcorn too? Then we have other fundraisers in the spring and every camping event cost $$$$ too! Honestly, I almost walked out of the new scout orientation meeting given at my current pack because of fee after fee after fee being talked about. My solution? Sell popcorn in the spring! Hand out awards at the last pack meeting before crossover or graduation. Let the council parties ( for top selers) be in warm wether instead of cold weather. Maybe the top prize could be a free weekend of camping at council camp on the event date of your choice . This would save council froim having to rent a facility and spend more $$ for an event they could do for practically nothing at camp.