Scoutfish

I took my son to Parent/Son weekend at our council camp when he was a first year Webelos . Yeah, we had camped many times before that, this was just the first time he went to council camp. Not sure about your council, but in ours, fall Parent/Son camping is more geared towards the first time campers and the new Tiger Cubs. Activities are really gearded to Tigers and - if you push it - the Wolves too. Bears and Webelos are just out of luck. So anyways, after about 10 am on the first organized day, my son tells me that the activities are babyish and that the bb gus suck. I asked him if he wanted to go home. He said he rather hang out at camp, being in the woods, and all that comes with camping than to go home. So the point being, while it may not be what I call true camping , he saw it as better than being at home or camping like his mom liks to do : Hint...Holiday Inn is roughing it to her. Right now, the only reason we are not camping as a pack or on our own is that it's just too hot and humid. Just waiting til it cools down so we can camp, cook and hang around the campfire!

Yeah, I think adequate is a variable meaning depending on what particular MB you are talking abouty. I am signed up as in my counsel for First Aid, Woodwork, Fire Safety, and motor boating. When I listed my experiences and knowledge of those badges on the form, my DE asked me if I was also interested in doing canoeing and emergency preparedness. I told him no. He figured that my years of being on the water and working around, on and owning boats; as well as my years of fire dept and water rescue ; would have me pretty good as canoing and emergency preparedness. I guess it was more of hopefull wanting that really thinking it was possible. Then I exoplained that there is a big difference between a firefighter with a million dollars of equipment and a qualified infrastructure of emergency poersonel and a scout's version of emergency preparednes. And although using various pieces of equipment for water rescue gave me a wide variety of experinec and knowledge, it did not m ake me qualified to teach or mentor canoiing ...even though I worked with more and less difficult equipment. I guess what I am saying is that a football coach could teach soccer, but a casual moped rider is not a professional motorcyclist.

Is it possible that the homeschool group isn't so much trying to have a combination of Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and ...ummm....ahem....Girl Scouts , as it is just trying to be a Charter Organazation that is willing to sponsor each group? My Co has a Cub Scout Pack, a Boy Scout Troop, a Varsity Crew and Ship as well as those micheif causing Girl Scouts . The pack as well as the Boy Scout troop meet on Mondays and the rest meet some other time- not sure exactly when though as I do not participate with them. So, our church has them all, but they are not combined. And the Girl Scouts are another set up all together as I understand it, not like BSA at all.

qwazse, I AGREE COMPLETELY! I can sit here right now, read any combinations of threads and I will form an opinion based on how I understand or interpret it. But that understanding and interpretation is based on knowledge..it could be limited, really expanded, or just flat out misguided or wrong. Sometimes I feel or think a certain way until I see things in another light, or as happens, - over time, my experiences show me my first thoughts were wrong or at the very least - misguided or biased. I think a "melting pot" of experiences, opinions and differences leads to the best of the best programs as long as each person looks with open eyes and without prejudice towards others. Well, simply put, if everybody saw everything the same way, it would be far worse than having tunnel vision!

I think some of you might be argueing wether you are supposed to say "toe-may-toe" versus "tah-mah-toe. In the end, you are prety close. "So I have no problem making it clear to a problem child that he must expect to either shape up or be shipped out." And that's just fine since you did give him the option to change his ways BEFORE terminating his membershiop in the troop. Not all boys will use their second cvhances to do better. And when they don't, then you do look at what's better for the well being of the troop. The key thing is that you did give the boy a second chance. After that, it's in his hands and the end results are his to brag about or remorse about.

Lisa, the difference between the two cases - at kleast for me - is the knowledge of the info. In the case of the Alleged meth dealing gang scout, the info was basically a case of " heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from another that you've been dealing around... Soryy, couldn't help myself and full apologies to REO Speedwagon! Anyways, in one situtaion, the info doesn't add up: The boy has a recoird that nobody has a clue about, but the info in the record was because it just happened. Really? It just happened and it's already on record? Then the OP said the boy did not act any different or cause any more trouble that any of the other normal scouts. So basically, somebody is saying : "I know he's up to no good( and it's outside of scouting and in the past), but my proof cannot be proven - just trust me. I the second case, the boy is not being accused of something that was in te past, outside of scouting and heard through the grapevine. He is being accused of bringing an illegal activity into the the unit and at unit functions, his parents know about it as well as some current leadership and boys state that they have been asked to participate in this illegal activity in the scouting environment. Kinda like another member of our pack leadership trying to get me kicked out because I was doing something wrong , they just can't prove it beyond saying it on a good authority. Sounds lie somebody is creating drama and has a personal vendetta. But If I am openly drinking or smoking weed and I do it at pack function, then I need to be kicked out and the law called. Plus any other leaders or committee who were aware of it should be kicked to the curb as well! Again, that's just how I see it.

Out of everything you said on the original post, I only need to focus on one part: "The boy frequently brings pot to camp outs and several boys say he offers to share with (not sell to) other boys, both his own age and younger." I do not have to worry about or even consider or judge what his parents think, how or why he does anything at home or wether he is liked , hated oer anything else. All I have top worry about and handle is the fact that he brought it to scout functions and the fact he tried to share with others. First time I see / discover it, he goes home with a warning and an ultimatum that this is the last time OR ELSE!!! Next time, law enforcement gets called. THen I'd repeat this same conversation to mom and dad. If they are ok with and want Jr to burn his brain out, then it's time they trurn in the neckers and patches and head elsewhere.And they can bet their last dollar that a full report will be given to the COR/Co, DE, SE and a general explanation given to the members of the unit as well as the committee. And I have no problem sharing it seeing as the scout made it an open toic the first time he freely offered it to anybody in the troop. Now, I have no problem giving people a second and sometimes a third chance for doing stupid things. I am not gonna lie and say I am perfect of that I never did anything stupid ( such as smoke weed when I was younger and also drink underage.) But the big thing that I see is that the boy if blatantly bringing it AND offereing it to others. Also, since mom and dad only have a "Oh, what can you do?" attitude, I am willing to bet they might turn a blind eye if another scout does decide to join in. Imagine how things will be at that unit the very first time anybody hears how a few scouts got high while camping and that a couple leaders noit only knew it happened, but knew about the scout and didn't try to stop or prevent it. Personally, I'd make it my job to see that these two parents lose their membership in BSA! Now, if the scout does stop any drug activity at any nad all scouting functiuons, then honestly, my job as a leader is done. It is not my job to police the boy's private life. But I still have issues with the parents as leaders. They don't even take their parenting responcibilities serious as parents when it comes to mind altering illegal drugs at home with thier own kid, I cannot imagine they are strict or serious about the scouting duties with other kids.

nyways, what my original post was "supposed" to mean was this: Based on a comment within the spun posted thread, somebody said something to the effect that any scout who was not living 100% within the scout law shoul;dn't be in a unit. But if the scout within a uniot are always living 100 of the scout law anyways, is the unit or it's leaders doing anything but "collecting" trophies? I mean, if all thew scouts are 100% perfect, then the leaders have nothing to contribute towards the scouts do they? Basiically, all you have is an adventure or activity club without any kind of mentoring or guidance. You are just babysitting?

Oh come on Beavah! Haven't you ever heard a scout say : " I swear it's the truth or may lighning strike me down!" It was probably a thug scout!

Okay, I am not a guidance counselor , a child developmental theropist, or behavorist. But I have a kid, have been around kids and have worked with kids in one shape or another for a long time. I have also stayed in a Holiday Inn on at least 5 occasions in the last 20 years. So here's the thing: I do not want to be in the pack that only takes on street thugs or be the guy who takes the meanest and toughest kids in order to work miracles on them. But if our pack only accepts the perfect outstanding examples of kids...have we really done anything? What I mean is this: If we expect kids who already know, and completely and totally live the scout law 100% perfectly...then what do we have to offer as a unit? What is the point of our program? What are we providing to these young men? If they are already living and being the perfect scouts...why do they need us or want to be around us? Again, I do not want a triple convicted 9 year old death row inmate( ) as a project child to work on and see if I can "fix" him, but I do not expect perfect boys who are shining examples of every scout law every day 24/7. I expect normal kids...who like us adults...need a reminder every now and then about putting our best foot forward and doing the right thing. I like to be able to teach by example and give guidance. I also know that I will learn too in the process. So what's your take on it? Do you expect the boys to be perfect scouts from day one?

" not actually - her second and last post specifies recent occurrences and events that have already caused changes to how the troop functions. " Yeah, but her first posts talks about how it is a mater of criminal record, and her second post states that the arrests were very recent. Thing is, if they were as very recent as she describes, I cannot imagine that the whole process has been worked through and it being on record already.

WEll I am either very impressed or confused: " I have discovered confidentially that a 15 year old Scout in my son's Troop has a criminal record such as dealing methamphetamines, among other offenses, and is a confirmed gang member by a local police department. " " No, arrest is a very recent one, one of several increasing recently, probably as a result of the gang involvement " So, does the justice system work very fast there - the boy being arrestd, stand trial and convictyed and records updated/ created that fast to work with " arrest is a very recent one" ? Or is the possibility there that somebody is a "credible Source" just without crdibility? And we all know those credible sources too. Thay have garanteed acurate info on anything...except is isn't accurate. I personally heard from 3 people about a friends house that had burned down due to a huge woods fire along with an entire moble home park. This was about 2 months ago. The info ven made it to facebook with nearly 50 people confirming that they knew it to personally be true themselves.... Except that the house of my friend had burned an entire month earlier and the mobile home park..wich according to a good MANY credible sources..is still there today havinmg be entirely and completely untouched by the fire. Just saying, people will pass along what they suspect to be true, which they may think is true or would expect to be true...except that they have no more qualified info than that they think or expect it....not know it. " probably as a result of the gang involvement " " probably as a result of the gang involvement (emphasis mine) Probably..possibly..maybe? GUessing it could be, but in actuality, having no idea whatsoever. Now, not bashing you or chastizing you, just saying, so far, there isn't actually ant knowledge so far except "could be, might be, probably, and somebody said so". Hey, when I was 19, I'd drink beer and even smoked some pot. 4 years after I quit, I had somebody approach me while on a FD and say they had a very reliable source say I was using cocane. I told them that we could jump in the car and go have a drug test taken right there and on the spot if they wanted to. Then I insisted that I have the test taken. Then I told that person to have their reliable source "Prove" the info they were claiming. Basically, the "source: remembered seeing me at a party wehere ZI was hoilding an open ber in my hand, and that person left before they actually saw me take a drink. But they assumed that : 1) since I was holding it, I must be drunk. ( I was drinking it, but far from drunk.) 2) Since some of the other people who where at the party had bragged about cocane at some point in there past...I must be a coke head too.( I have never touched the stuff!!!) I also didn't happen to know the people in question who were there. 3)The source put 2 and 2 together without any evidence , but went with it anyways since it probably made sense. In the end, they were completley wrong, except for the fact I did indeed drink some beer. And I doi n ot deny it now, althought I can readily admit and also realize that it wasn't the smart or right thing to do. Same with the weed. Not smart, not right, and not cool. But you know - that was over 20 years ago. I haven't touched it since then, ansd as of now, I mighgt crack a beer about 4 or 5 times within a ten year span. Does this mean I am a horrible influece or a bad leader ( I am the CM of my pack)?

Nah, you can use that kind of group as long as you don't hold a sheath knife in your left hand while clicking your mouse with your right hand!

BLANC, But if you read the entire passage in context, then you get a different picture. A private facebook group is "public" among all members of the group. On our facebook page ( as well as other groups I am a member of) Anything I typew will be seen by all members of the group. Therefore, it is open to all members of our pack and no different than me talking to any youth in front of the pack during any pack meeting. As far as private instant messages, I can do that to anybody in any group of the wide open facebook public wall - and still, only the person I am messaging will see it. So even being wide open public allows for totally private conversation. But since our entire pack ( with computers) can be part of our group...it is no more private than me talking to a scout in the middle of the crowd during a pack meeting.

We use a website through Soar and we also just started using facebook also. It's a privite group that can only be joined or accessed by active parents within the pack. That serves two purposeds: It helps enforce YP and helps prevent unwanted persons( ie predators) from getting s an A list of kids meeting somewhere.Notice I said helps, not completely prevents. And this does not violate any policy because it is not our only or first means of communication, but only a secondary ( well, actually a trimary after our private website) means of passing along what we already mention at; pack meetings, at den meetings,leaders meetings, post on the pack bulletin board during meetings , and send to all pack members by e-mail..

Well, my whole post will beconcerning a pack, not a unit.... We are cozy. We didn't plan it, and it wasn't an agenda or long range goal. Matter of fact, until your post asked the question - I had never really thought about it. WE are cozy. We were all freinds first who ended up somehow or another all being in the same pack without realizing the other might be joining this pack. The cool part of being cozy is that we speak truthfully, frankly and without offense to what we hear or say. WE can tell each other when an idea stinks, is okay or great! If we screw up ( bet you guys never do that in your unit huh? ) we can laugh about it and not have any hostilities or dramatic finger pointing. WE can call one another about minor details and plans without another person thinking we are doing something back handed. Biggest benefit is that we are comfortable and will speak up instead of holding back ( under the guise of respect) when we thing something is amiss or not right.

I want to add: If the boys want to do the extra practice and get better or be the best they can at flag ceremonies and want to do the drills...I see nothiung wrong with that at all. But just don't start drilling them because you are embarrassed by what they do. Don't drill them because they do not met your expectations . Do not let this be your focus in the program.

I can't say that I'd ever be embarrassed by my boys while doing a flag ceremony. Are the perfect and does everything go like precision clockwork? Nope! Not hardly. But I am never embarrassed by them. They are boys doing something because they want to. The are making an effort to do it right. They are trying and the sentiment is there. I have seen them carry the flag on the wrong side of the procession - but it doesn't men they don't care about that flag. I have seen them march with the pack flag ahead of the US flag because one boy gets a out of pace with the rest of the group - but not because he didn't care or thought he was more important. I have watched them crowd up or get spaced too far apart, and almost hung the flag upside down - but they corrected it before most observers noticed. But I also know they are boys doing something because they wanted to and their unpolished inconsistancies are just a sign of their age and the fact they are not a paid daily military unit whose job is to do this on a daily basis. I guess as a CM, I know that pretty much everythinbg the boys do at some point is based ontheir watching and learning of us and that our mentoring is the guidance they use. So, I nhave never been embarassed by the way the boys perform at a flag ceremony. I'm, thiunking the day I am embarrassed by a group of youth trying to do something is the day I need to step down and remove myself from this group.

I can see a CD wnting to ask a few boys "of interest" about what might have happened ot what they where doing at "4pm on the weekend og X day while at camp?" But that's pretty much as far as any "authority" or "powers" go. The "authority woule be the laws of the state the camp happened in and only if the suspected youth were still in that state or area or jurisdiction. Basically, a CD or Ranger does not have the power to hold or sequester a scout, not is his investigation of a legfal nature. The most he could do is ban the boys from camp, but that in itself may be up to the council or SE of that council. The CD or ranger could not prevent the scouts any outside contact wether it be the SM or parents . If the CD or Ranger really needs some interrogations done, he needs to call the police..who also have to follow the law of the land.

"Edited: I'm not sure why it spun a thread from my last comment." Only because it is the header comment on the second page of this thread.

"We (the committe) understand that she has no say so in the buisness side of the Troop, but the SM gives her free rein, " The SM doesn't have the power to give or allow any member free reign of buisness matters.

"But is being Fat a disability????" Depends if it is cxaused by endocrine/thyroid or medical ( some medicines) or because you just shove too much food in your face

I also know this to be untrue...depending on your definition of flaot. I CANNOT flot on my back. Wether it be just an oddity, uneven distribution of body fat, or some bones being unproportionatly denser than others...I cannot flot on my back. Every time I try, my legs begin to sink and I begin to take on a verticle stance. No, I am relaxed. I do not have any fear of water ( although I respect it) as I have been in and around the water all my life and as my father was a Coasti and I used to run water rescue. NOw, back to my floating. When my body does go verticvle in stance, I do not mean that I am fully floating with ant specific amount of my body constantly staying out of the water. Again, if I relax, my entire body will slowly dip completely underwatyer at a depth of about 5 or 6 inches between my head and the surface. At this point, I will slowly surface again , but only a few inches above teh surface. If I plan on breathing, I have to tilt my head backwards . If you ever saw the old Coast Guard survival flotig methood..then you copuld see that I could do this for very long extended periods of time. But I swim very well. Not on the same level as Mark Spitz or Michale Phelps by a long shot, but do hold my own. But If the outcome of me earning a swimming badge or certification was dependant on floating, then I wouldn't pass...which is obviously a FLAWED process as it turns out, I swim very well.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

Bye bye Miss American pie.......drove my Chevy to the levy , but the levy was dry...

"Pvtjoker, who decided that this Scout is "done with advancing in rank"? Now, if you were to tell us the boy is 16 and has been unsuccessfully trying to learn to swim for 5 years, well, maybe. If he's younger than that, there're no way he should be considered "done." " WEll, the boy did by REFUSING to learn or get wet due to his fear. Pvt Joker, If I unerstand your question correctky, you did not ask about any BSA requirements. Sound like you already know them. It sounds like you are asking what to say to a boy to explain to him that HIS OWN refusal to meet this challenge is going to cause his advancement to stiop as far as the rules and requirements in BSA are written. Well, I'd say just that. I wouldn't sugar coat it, I wouldn't try to make it more nicer souinding or make BSA sound like the bad guy. I'd be point blank ( without a mean tone) and say : "Okay, here's the deal, if you do not swim, you will not advance in rank any higher that where you are right now. Youy do not have to drop out nor does this mean you can't camp or go to camp or troop meetings. But it does exclude you from things like canoeing, water activities, and such. It will limit your camping activities too." And maybed somewhere in all that, you can post it as a personal growth challenge or put it as a test to adult hood by overcoming a fear.