RememberSchiff

Probably BRANDED.

Hat taken off, red epaulets ripped off, belt removed, the bottle opener on one's Swiss Army knife broken off, and then sent out the gate.

Like what happened to my old Cubmaster years ago at my last Pack meeting.

Our commissioner was pretty tough about unit inspections.

Kudu, thanks for the link.

Yes. I think higher of a patrol which has planned and executed an adult-less campout than a patrol which has not but has completed National Honor Patrol. Also an award would help promote this as a goal and have other patrols and troops asking "What's that?" We all seem to agree that this is a patrol goal.

In exchange, I agree to drop another existing award(s) - your choice and plenty to choose from our abundant award inventory.

Another odd thing. So far, I have found no BSA award which recognizes the accomplishment of an adult-less patrol campout.

I suppose, a solo requirement could be added to National Honor Patrol and use that border patch. But, how about a new border patch with "wings", "rocket engines", "broken chains",.. something which would attach to the patrol emblem to show their accomplishment? Or is there a ribbon for the patrol flag that I missed?

I would be delighted to hear that I am wrong, that a patrol (or crew) can go on a Philmont adventure without adults. Here at my council, Philmont is managed through Council with a near constant adult presence.

As to my council, no adultless patrol camping at camporees or summer camp. At least two adults must be present. This info is in the camporee flyers and summer camp adult leader handbook. Sorry no links, I prefer to remain anonymous. If other councils are different, I'd like to hear about that too.

Agreed patrols can go camping with SM approval, but in practice that applies only to non-BSA properties and non BSA activities which seems somewhat odd to me.

Some examples:

1. A patrol cannot go to Philmont without adults. Yes, adults should handle transportation to and from ranch. When I did Philmont in the 60's, only one adult was required then and frankly we would have done fine without him on the trail.

2. A patrol cannot go to camporees in my council w/o adults.

(Our troop was not going to the camporee but one older patrol was interested but still needed two adults).

3. A patrol cannot go to scout camp, even a "patrol method" scout camp, without adults. They could go provisional but then the camp provides the "adults".

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Didn't say it was. In fact, I don't think the current policy even requires blue cards.

http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors.aspx

"Most local councils (including summer camps) use the Application for Merit Badge, or blue card, although it is not required."

Too bad, I think the perceived "convenience" short-changes scouts on some valuable lessons that my generation learned.

My opinion.

When I was a scout (60's), scouts were expected to keep their own advancement records, that's why one third of the blue card is the scout's copy. Most of us bundled our blue cards together with a rubber band and stored with our baseball cards (Cookie Rojas, Johnny Callison,...) - our prized possessions all stored in a shoe box.

At Star, Life, and Eagle, we had to show proof of our merit badge work with our completed blue cards and not the white award cards, camp worksheet, or sash. Lose your blue card and you made a trip back to the counselor who hopefully kept his third or at least remembered you. Forget going to Council, they had no room to store their third of the blue card. At Star, I lost a couple blue cards and I learned my lesson for later ranks.

So, it was the scout's responsibility, not the Troop Advancement Chairman, not the Scoutmaster, not his parents - the scout's. Good training for adulthood - keep your own records; don't count on anyone else - the government, banks, and especially council.

At the BOR, each blue card was examined. A scout definitely had to have all his ducks in a row. I do not remember any issues with parents as counselors. If one of the BOR had been your counselor, he would have stepped aside.

Glad to hear your Eagle Board of Review expects the same as mine did. If others expect less, sorry to hear that.

Nice work. You obviously put allot of time and thought into this. Very few websites put in the online help, FAQ, and support contact information. I offer some feedback.

1. Compliance not an issue

First, there are NO BSA website rules that a UNIT MUST be in compliance.

http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/faq/guidelines.aspx#uws states

"There are no national guidelines or policies regarding Unit Web sites because units are "owned" by their chartered organizations. Therefore, any unit Web site belongs to the chartered organization or the individual who operates the site, not the BSA.

While the BSA does provide advice for those who operate unit Web sites, which can be found here, the BSA does not have the ability to compel units to comply with this advice.

Councils that wish to provide links to unit Web sites have an opportunity to require units to comply with this advice by granting a link only to units that meet these conditions (and any other the council wishes to apply) ... however, even in those cases, the council cannot compel a unit to comply by any means other than withholding such a link."

As always when someone throws a rule at you, ask where does it say that? Even our council has a search engine link. And you council website http://www.northernstarbsa.org/ has ads on its website.

And it is a good idea to have a weather link on your website for activity planning. Personally I prefer the National Weather Service for the updated radar maps http://www.nws.noaa.gov/. Your hosting service claims no-ads hosting.

Common sense allows applies.

Posting personal information - full names, phone numbers, e-mail addresses is not a good idea. Creating alias e-mail accounts with mail forwarding is common, mail sent to cubmaster@pack423..com ->> goes to whoever is cubmaster.

Posting your travel itinerary should be password protected like your discussion blog or not online at all. It is not a good idea to tell the world the specifics of where you are going and when. After the activity is completed, no problem.

Also as mentioned, your council may have some guidelines that they want followed if they are to provide a link from the council website to yours. They may object to ads, though they have some themselves.

2.Legal use of BSA trademarks - not an issue. If you stick to promoting scouting activities and not commercial businesses, you are covered by internet "fair use" policies (both copyright and trademark).

3. Homepage layout. Think about what you want to draw attention to first and how you want the user's eye to traverse the homepage. Usually the eye will be drawn to a photo or graphic first. My eye sees a picture of what looks like a boarded-up abandoned building? Sorry, get a picture of some lively, smiling scouts doing some scout activity. Some thumbnail photos of activities might be good for the homepage.

You have a sea of visually indistinct information. Some information is fairly static "How to join Pack", some is "breaking news". Try to visually separate them - different column, font, or my favorite background color (maybe bgcolor=#FFFFFF for news cells, bgcolor=#D3D3D3.

Keep the homepage updated and changing. Change photo and graphics periodically or make website more dynamic - photo sequencer.

4. Think about what webpages your users will want to print out and if your layout accommodates.

5. Think about ease of maintenance. Try to reduce the number of pages you have to update each week. Can others upload content, particularly photos or just the webmaster?

6. Some photos, even the thumbnails, should be compressed to display faster. Some photos were, some were not. BTW good photos.

7. Navigating from Den 1 website is an adventure.

Anyway my $0.02, keep up the good work.

I would have scouts walk and pull a wagon - safer, environmental friendly, and cheap.

If you are set on a vehicular float, start with the GSS as others suggested BUT stay away from flatbed trailers with outrigger wheels. You also want a railing to keep scouts from falling off.

These links are about the death of a Cub Scout on a Christmas float in 2006.

http://archive.seacoastonline.com/news/12042006/nhnews-ph-por-scout.death.html

http://mail.nhliberty.org/pipermail/bill_reviewers_nhliberty.org/Week-of-Mon-20070129/000017.html

I have read that our military budget (not counting Dept of Homeland Security or Veterans services) is larger than the budget of the next 15 nations combined. Unlike other nations, we have a military presence on foreign soils outside of UN actions.

But maybe we spend more than all nations combined

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp#InContextUSMilitarySpendingVersusRestoftheWorld

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

Compare us to those with a higher standard of living than US and how much they spend on defense.

But back to the topic...we need to get back in the public school otherwise our memberships number will continue the downward spiral. We need to recruit and hold activities in the public school, particularly "after school". Other youth organizations (4-H, Boys & Girls) without the DRP disadvantage are growing. They are where the boys are and we are not.

Relax. Let your scouts do their good turns and learn to feel good about helping others without expectation of reward.

Don't worry about tracking hours, quantifying projects, maximizing awards for time spent, make-work paperwork...enjoy with your scouts giving help to others.

My $0.02

I thought this thread was about DRP?

In "Rovering for Success", Baden Powell symbolically talks about the rocks that a boy must be wary during a Voyage of Life canoe trip one rock being irreligion.

He detested that adult atheists were forcing their irreligion on boys. He felt that a boy cannot fully develop without a religious belief and that in Scouting by showing boys the wonders of Nature was a step towards believing in God. He did not necessarily mean an established religion and he realized that not all boys would fully develop as scouts.

In my reading, I found that for boys, there was no religion precondition to joining or remaining in scouting, just the opposite. BP's new Scouting provided all boys the opportunity to find their own spirituality in a nonsectarian way. The only preconditions I found were age and physical ability.

Drop the DRP for young boys. Scouting should go back to helping all boys avoid the rocks. A Charter Organization does not have to allow atheists into their units, as they can place conditions on membership just like before DRP was created in the 70's. Catholic units can continue to require that a boy must be Catholic to join while a Congregational Church would be allowed to accept boys who are atheist, agnostic, or undeclared.

Aug, 2005: 7th Circuit Court of Appeals court ruled Atheism is a religion. Wisconsin prison officials must allow a study group for atheists as well.

There has been local option before to include boys previously excluded.

"(James) West also dealt with those who protested against the inclusion of African Americans. West held that they should be included, but that local communities should follow the same policies that they followed in the school systems. Thus, much of the American south as well as many major northern communities had segregated programs with "colored troops" until the late 1940s. Since the BSA had early and enduring ties with the YMCA, a firmly Protestant organization, the Catholic church forbade their boys to join. West successfully argued that Scouting was non-sectarian and the Catholics accepted the BSA program in 1913."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_E._West_%28Scouting%29

Yeah, I could easily be wrong as this my recollection of a talk long ago. I'm hoping some forum members come forward, better informed than I.

Here's some references

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_F._Smith

Says Joseph F. Smith was Church President until he died of pneumonia in 1918. Scouting became the the official youth program of his Church in 1913.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Stability_and_Growth

"...He (President Joseph F. Smith) was a huge advocate for education and in 1912, the seminary program began in Salt Lake City. The program provided weekday religious education for Mormon teenagers and still continues today. He also oversaw the Church's adoption of the Boy Scout program..."

In Scouting, we often lose the reason why changes were made (whether they appear good or bad) - Scout Law, "Be Square", neckerchiefs, red berets,...

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My understanding is a year after the BSA started, our Scout Law diverged from the 8-point British Scout Law to reflect the American values of 1911. Also at this time, the LDS or the Mormon Church under Joseph Smith began to study Scouting program for their youth membership. One of the points added to the Scout Law was "reverent". All scouts are required to follow the Scout Law and since atheists were considered not reverent, they would be ineligible for membership.

The Scout Law has remained unchanged and some would say we are not in sync with the American values of today. America is now a more secular and maybe a more tolerant society than it was in 1911.

Other scout organizations such as Great Britain and Canada have changed their Scout Law and program to be more inclusive of others. But in the US, only a few charter organizations such as Quaker and Reformed Jewish accept atheists in the scout units.

Kudu and Merlyn are likely more informed than I. You asked an interesting historical question that is not easily researched as you found out.

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PACK15NISSAN, my opinion.

Sounds like you have a full plate.

Webelos only lasts for a year and a half or so. Spend that time getting your Webelos ready for Boy Scouts. Get them interested in Boy Scouts. Take your den and visit troop meetings, join in on their outings, definitely get them outside - camping, hiking, Klondike, etc., make some connections - find Boy Scout leaders and Boy Scout who can help out here and there with your Webelos activities, challenge a Boy Scout troop to a pasta bridge building contest. Have fun.

Crossing as many Webs to Scouts as possible is how you can best give back scouts.

Check your district to see if there are merit badge counselors for Drafting, Architecture, and Engineering. If so, then there is time after crossover for you to become a merit badge counselor ('Heh, no wonder your Webs beat the scouts in a pasta bridge building contest.')

A great merit badge counselor helps make a merit badge popular.

Yes.

Time involved, depends on the merit badge and what you and scouts bring to it but usually 3 to 5 one hour meetings. Also some councils/districts allow you to limit what troops you serve which greatly reduces demands.

You control your availability. Some counselors can only hold one or two merit badge courses a year due to their life schedule or seasonal constraints. You do not have to drop everything and hold a merit badge course and you can tell scouts 'Sorry but I cannot work on the merit badge this month, please call me back later or contact another counselor'.

Philly is just using this issue as a way to collect more revenue. Yeah it annoys me when a perceived informed source is giving misinformation (I was thinking of a policeman giving me directions to the Reading terminal, not to anyone in this forum )

So I'm not sure there is a freedom of speech issue here. File the application, pass the test (buy the answers in advance from the dose guys in Joisee), and continue on with "Yeah da Liberty Bell was made down da Philly naval yard. Nows National Treasure was filmed over der. Nicholas Cage ate a hoagie right where we are sitting" ... whatever you want, this is Philly where we boo even Santa Claus.

I don't understand how these private tour guides stay in business. The tours by the National Park Service at Independence Mall are free, and the Park Rangers are far better informed. Ya pays your money ...

Nope.

The Eagle Candidate identifies himself as a scout when he first meets the benefiting organization. He is a representative of the BSA and hopefully one of our best representatives, but more importantly he is also representing himself - it is his neck on the line and not the BSA. He may decide to wear his uniform during parts of his project not involving fund raising. He does not represent the benefiting organization, he is performing HIS scout service project for them.

One part of the Guide to Safe Scouting that applies to his scout service project is Youth Member Behavior Guidelines, Member Responsibilities

"All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit."

In short, he's expected to act like a scout while performing HIS scout service project; he is a representative of the BSA. If he fails to meet this expectation, the District Eagle Board will likely reject his Eagle application.

It's that simple.

Easy mistake to make, after all, the Sportsman title page (p455 in the Webelos Handbook) has a photo of a scout drawing a bow! You would think Archery would be included.

When in Cubs, first try borrowing outdoor gear from a Scout troop (along with a couple of their scouts to erect flies). Maybe you could borrow some E-Z Up or similar canopies from Pack families?

Buying gear obviously costs $$$, then there is the storage and upkeep.

Yes Ed good memory, one recent thread discussed this for 11 pages before being locked.

Uniforms - "Eagle Candidates wearing uniform at ELSP"

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=191183

Dustoff, I suggest you ask these questions to your District Eagle Board.

Some differences

1. I presume Bob did not have to identify himself as a Scouter before considering that activity as an Eagle candidate would.

2. His appearance was not to fulfill a Scout rank requirement.

3. His appearance did not require that he previously meet with Scoutmaster with a written plan which was then reviewed and approved by Scoutmaster.

4. Same as 2 but reviewed and approved by Troop Committee

5. Same as 3 but reviewed and approved by District Eagle Board.

While there are stated places and activities that wearing a scout uniform is inappropriate, an Eagle Scout service project is not one of them. While not prohibited nor required, wearing the scout uniform during the Eagle Scout project helps the scout and program.

(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)