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The "value", such as it is, involves working closely with the Chartered Organization to be sure it is represented well, and helping youth take their place in their community. Married? Pregnancy is a welcome event. At 19, it's downright common in some parts. In fact I recently met a regional VOA officer and her husband in that exact situation. Engaged? You're definitely getting teased for jumping the gun! (And I still call dib's on the baby during officer's meetings!) Some serious issues might be how to act around the 20 year old who's been married for two years and has yet to concieve. That happens too, and if you have a bunch of older venturers, they might not get how hard that can be. (It's likely their first experience with such a charged situation.) Part of the "fun" of being a crew advisor is working with these young adults as they experience these very issues. Sure some of the high adventure stuff needs to be tailored to physical ability. But the program isn't "belay on" 24/7.

P.E. - I sort of think that's how it would play out in our crew. As far as social convention, each teen pregnacy that I've known about in or community was managed differently. (Lots of different social classes, religion, etc ...) That's why bringing in the Charter Organization for a little guidance is important. E-007. - No offense taken. Trust me before I started this gig, I thought the same thing. But, there was no "separate but equal" option. The nearest girls-only crew was miles away. Girl scouts was not promoting an outdoor program the way my daughter was expecting (having seen what her older brother had). Maybe someplace else there can be two great outdoor programs, but as long as the best is defined by the BSA (like it was in our community), you will always do one sex or the other a disservice by sending them elsewhere.

Eagle007: But why we are co-eding these kids up in overnight settings is beyond me. ... But why put an alcoholic drink in front of a recovering alcoholic? ... One thing I've learned over the past 5 years: Girls are not honey, and boys are not flies. The co-ed outdoor program seems to give promiscuous impulses pause. I don't understand why, it's just what I've observed. Whereas, a Saturday afternoon at the mall seems to heighten it.

Crew/Pack/Troop: Married couples typically tent together. My wife endured a lot of disruption this fall because I had to repeatedly go adress curfew violators. Still, she chalked it up to one of the best camping weekends she's ever had.

BDPT100, never saw my approach as liberal. Good Book says the Almighty sides with the poor and fatherless ... guess I'd better follow suit. On one level, I don't like the hypotheticals. On another I think they do help us improve our frame of mind with the youth. I'm not touching the early termination scenario. Partly because it brings me to tears, but mainly because it's unlikely that it would occur out in the open. The likes of us would never be told. Married youth are a grey area in sleeping arrangements ... but the nice thing about a crew is that discipline the officers' responsibility. I'd advise the youth and the couple involved to sort this out ahead of time. They may decide that for the weekend the husband should be "one of the guys" and the wife should be "one of the girls." OR they may decide the couple should bring their own tent or pay extra for their own cabin. BD for the same reason you would want their tent in the adult area, I would want it as far away as possible. I remember one National Park where a couple should have tented a little farther away ... I almost felt like applauding ... (the Mrs. threatened to slap me if I did). We went through the next day a little short on sleep because of that one! For a couple that is half over 21, the no fratenization policy kicks in. But on the ground I'm told it can flex a little. That's been discussed elswhere in this forum.

OGE: I so wish I could have that conversation with every parent. More often than not, parents foolishly listen to their kids when told to just drop them off. (Needless to say, the ones who stick around for the "open house lecture" are the ones who keep bringing their kids back.) But, our community is rife with gossip. There doesn't need to be a baby in the background for any parent to know my youth have baggage. I'd almost prefer that something as glaring as a baby would appear for every youth's misdeed. All the cards would be on the table when mom or dad signs the registration form. So, yeah, if the CO insists that we go gently with a young lady (as I think it would), and the crew instists that they'd rather manage the hassles involved in keeping the new mom in ... then I'd probably volunteer to watch the VP's baby while I introduce the program to any parents who care to listen. (Always had a soft spot for the little crumbsuckers.) The sucking sound of departing parents who think their Johnny or Janey was too good for my crew would be music to my ears. Why? Because the parents who do stick around are the ones who will get us throught tough times.

True, DR, but most officers (regardless of what they say) want to be held to a higher standard. Like everyone said, the young lady will be lucky if she has time for venturing. But, one of my daughter's soccer teammates really wanted to be part of her team even after she got pregnant, so her and her mom tried to make it to every game (as spectators, she missed too much of the season with the baby due right in the middle of it). Then in the winter she was back on the court. Point is: if it's a priority with the youth and her parents, they'll find a way. It then boils down to the officers, the CO, and the advisor deciding if they'll find a way. Parents wanting it to be otherwise are welcome to start their own crew. And, yes, the advisor might have to get acquainted with the baby's father and figure out where he stands in all of this. But in our society in this day and age, it's usually up to the parents.

Also, you don't have to reinvent the wheel.* Look at the school calendar to see if there's an event (e.g., a carnival or open house) where your boys could provide a service. If you're lucky, the contact-person for the event might also be a cub parent. *No pun intended, honest!

Read the book. Show the book. Do the book. If a boy can "Do" confidently the same day after going through the above teaching method, he can usually perform a week after. The trick is to get him to go through those steps with another boy shortly thereafter. (Oh no! There's no place to sign off for teaching each skill to another boy. Double Oh no! It doesn't spell EDGE!! My boys are doomed!!!) We allow ASM's to sign off, but we don't want to see signatures from a boys parents. (Uncle? Well, we're trying to sort that one out!) Even so, when a boy asks us for a sign off, we usually send him to his PL. The PL's are trained to see the skill performed. All of this run-around usually causes a "re-testing delay" without making it very formal.

I don't wear uni pants in the winter. Vintage shorts and thick socks is a lot more practical. I slip them over a pair of longjohns if necessary. Boot grommets can rip pants to shreds. But your modification makes switchbacks ulititarian to the point where I just might think of changing strategy. Where do you keep the lower leg if you take it off?

BSA24 - Your rant about uniforming is a paper tiger. My crew doesn't have a uniform and it has shrunk. Getting a "gangster look" is not going to attract more boys to scouting. How many boys are out there who will say "Finally, they changed their uniform to something I can stand to wear! I think I'll join."? Rather, I think they'll say "Scouts trying to be cool again. How lame." I haven't met anyone who has passed on scouting because of the cultural/religious issues you mention. My impression from where I sit is that there aren't a whole lot of boys who will say "My homosexual uncle can be SM?" Or, "no more duty to God?" ... "Let me in!" I think most of the people for whom this is a hot button issue have had more than 30 years to create youth movements of their own. They have not done so. Your points about finding out how to create time for kids to participate are spot on. A lot of school clubs run late into the evening. A "community night" would sound absurd to most people I know.

clemlaw If some cartoonist draws a set of cartoons about various faith traditions and knocks on the door of BL and tries to sell them, they might actually be pretty good, and BL might buy them. Not all traditions approve of visual media for presenting their religion. (I'm sure there are some sects of Judaism and Christianity that find cartoon Bible Stories offensive. But, the majority of muslims for example frown on any renderings of their prophet.) That said, an occasional article on a minority religion -- especially one by/about venturers persuing their trust award -- would be useful. BSA24 I'd think that in 2010, and with obvious Buddhist and other faiths participating in Scouting, that it's time to rename the series and include stories from faiths around the world rather than just Bible Stories. Not sure I would ever take the "Bible Heroes" title from the strip. It grabs the interest of boys who key into such things. And it allows young cynics like Clem to skip over it. It's like asking Kahuna to delete "the Sangha" from his opening scentence at the start of this thread and replace it with "my religious community". It denies him the right to declare where he's coming from and prevents us readers from understanding how his perspective may be more than just his own. I would rather have a story from a minority faith tradition framed in its own right. It gives the boy the right to decide if he's interested in reading it. It also doesn't insult the minority faith by forcing it to be on par with a tradition that it may find offensive.

Pack - Not sure if Fr. Foster's quote referred to any OT passages or just some specific Catholic dogma (e.g. Dec 25th the true date of Christ's birth, the doctrine of Hell, or Church opulence as essential to it's veracity). But anyhow ... BP - Misinformed, unscholarly, or otherwise, many MANY folks have found inspiration in Old Testament stories. Most feel their kids are better off for reading them -- even if it may be one a month in a non-religious setting -- even if they believe they are mythic in nature -- even if they stem from a culture or religion completely alien to them. Thus, they are a regular feature in Boys Life.

I try to be very clear with new adults that a lot of what we do are "troop policies." They are written down in a troop handbook which even I barely take the time to read more than once a year! Some of those are for the convenience of the SM and can be altered at his discretion. Others have to do with the opinion of our district advancement chair. We could ignore his advice, but he's a nice guy -- so when he tells us about "red flags", we make policies to steer boys around them. Those latter policies are what seem to be out of an SM's or committee's hands. They come off as hard-and-fast nation-wide rules, but they aren't. Not sure where your former SM got his rule from, but if it's worked for your troop this long, no point in abandoning it unless your current SM feels like his hands are tied for no good reason.

BH: I think it's pretty clear, that -- because of recent court decisions -- the city, or the unit it charters, would attract scrutiny that may get in the way of running program. (We might want it to be different, but like you said "that's another quarrel" that, if you form a crew, can be fodder for an ethical controversy.) I'd go for the chamber of commerce alternative that Bevah suggests. You seem to see a need for a Crew and/or Troop in the community. And that 13 - 20 age range naturally has a lot of direct interaction with local businesses anyway.

Here's what amuses me about this thread ... BL does in fact give a lot of ink to stories and legends beyond the Bible Heroes half-page. I learned a lot about other world-views -- including Native Americans -- from reading BL. (I learned a lot more, and far more accurate, info from the writings of Christian missionaries, but that's a different story.) So, what everyone was up-in-arms about is the fact that stories amenable to most Christians, Jews, Muslims, Mormans, and a few other sects routinely get a smidgen of ink! Heaven help us if boys from different religions across the country discover they might have something in common with one another!!!! Or, maybe those particular stories are more powerful than folks want to let on ... Maybe there is something to "a storytelling tradition that was designed and needed for a small culture based in the Middle East" THAT PERVADES THE BELIEF SYSTEMS OF 3/4 OF THE WORLD'S POPULATIONS.

Yep E. that's basically my experience, My VP-Program started an FB group two years ago, and I don't think it has helped communications much. The FB group is basically youth run, so it doesn't consume much of my time, but it would be a nuisance to me if I ran it. In fact, the youth who do run it don't do much with it. I guess they think it's a waste of their time too. It is useful for ... FB users who are part of the group can put a link to it in their status (e.g. "... came from an awesome trip with @Unit 123" ... when you type an @ sign it disappears and a link to the user/group you type in can be selected). Tagging pictures. Events ... you can invite a group, if a member is on FB, they can click a button that says their coming. Things to keep in mind ... - FB should not be used by kids under 13. So if it's those boys you're trying to reach, don't count on it happening. - FB subjects youth to a lot of media parents may rather them not see. - Different youth use FB differently, some may even block notifications from your unit's group! So, even if you have a unit FB group, you will still need E-mail (I use Google Groups to keep a mailing list my unit can share), and will still probably want a website.

It is truly unfortunate when personal grievances "lock in" group policy. Sometimes, you have to settle for turning things part way, not 180 degrees. BTW - The coffee (or herbal tea, whatever) suggestion has nothing to do with duty or responsibility. It has to do with servant leadership, being the bigger man, recognizing your SM as a brother in scouting. Don't worry Gary, I never require my youth to make my "preferred" beverage. I generally brew my sludge on my own time. But the ones who do make it (however watery) get an extra couple of minutes of my time when neither of us are barking orders.

Ditto that. But, when they do come up with a decent plan, I'm sticking by them. It is nice for the SM to be available for every campout. Parents are more comfortable, and I suppose the boys know how to "work the system" if the same guy with the same sleeping habits is running these weekends! Now that I think of it, T&S, your committee should plan a weekend or two where the SM is required to stay home!

There's something just wrong about a "paperless" sport requiring a pamphlet.

You just hit the situation that we all hope passes to the crew/classroom/team/church youth group down the road. The way you phrased it, it sounds like you're not the advisor. So first thing is let him/her know you're going to stick by him/her in this situation. Like OGE says, have your advisor talk to the CO because you in a way represent them. They may be of special help if they are a religious institution and the young woman's family is of the same belief. So, get the boundaries from the CO of what you may or may not do in this situation. Then, "discipline in a crew is the responsibility of the crew officers." So within the boundaries of the CO, help the advisor convey your options and ask for their advice. They may tell you that this has nothing to do with crew life and you should go as easy as possible. They may tell you that the young lady is misrepresenting scouting and want you to come down harshly (something that I think most institutional heads will NOT want you to do). Finally, tell the parents that 1) the BSA has no stated bans on heterosexual fornicators -- the behavior is only prohibited on overnights(implicitly FWIW) in the GSS, 2) this is a youth-led movement and you expect them to stand by your officers, 3) your actions are within in the bounds of the wishes of your CO. Let's face it, this may result in parents wanting to have nothing to do with your crew. Encourage them to a) try and grow through this situation or b) seek out a more "compliant" CO and start their own crew. We really don't have enough of them to reach all the kids who could benefit from the program. P.S. - My personal opinion (informed by my religion) is pregnacy out of wedlock is proof of God's blessing in spite of our sinful nature. If it boils down to siding with the poor and fatherless vs. high and mighty, I'm choosing the one scripture says the Almighty will favor. Just sayin'.

Good luck with that application! I think you'll be in as good a position as any to resolve this specific problem. Making the invisible visible is a matter of finding out how data moves from a ship's paper charter to the list of data the web page calls upon to make its map. That means making a few (maybe a lot) of phone calls and getting to know who does what. In the process, you may find out who to put in touch with whom to make things work even better. Sounds like you just got a plank in your platform!

The scouting.org website is frought with data-flow problems. So, when you call, ask if there's a way you can be part of the solution. Your council Venturing Officer's Association could use the leadership, I'm sure. I found it really hard to work with Sitecore (the BSA backbone), thus our "new" council website is painfully lacking. I'm still a successful page deployment away from being able to train our VOA secretary in using it.

They finally purged the database of inactive or "paper only" crews. So now my pin is no longer overshadowed by non-existent units! No new prospects from it. But at least I have a visual representation of where my neighbors are!

After I clicked verify ... The two warnings the YP was not done were for adults who had YP. No warnings from adults who did not have YP. One warning came from when I added a 14y.o. 8th grader. Guess the programmers never got the memo about the new Venturing age requirements sent out last May. Still, better than pens.