qwazse

COH's are sacred to the troop. If the committee has decided that the boys should have a lot of lattitude in planning, and the boys agree, then the committee's job is done. If an adult comes to this kind of committee and says "you need to step in, these boys are doing slip-shod work", the adult can expect to be ignored. If the SPL comes to the committee and says "we want to make the COH a little more special" then the committee may be compelled to respond. They may appoint an adult who is skilled in probing the boys to figure out what to tweak, but this type of committee will probably not appoint an a adult to write, produce, and direct "the perfect COH". Why? Because the members of this kind of committee have probably sat in on one or two such COH's and found them to be wretched miserable affairs that do nothing more than delay them and the boys from the cookies and punch afterword. Now, if it's a matter of disrespect during presentation of the colors or something of the sort, then yes, you should let the SM know that you found that offensive. He'll probably talk to the boy(s) at the next meeting and you won't see that behavior again. Otherwise, telling adults who are quite pleased with their boys that they aren't "going by the book" will get you nowhere. But, if there is something you would like added to the program, your best bet is to politely and respectfully ask the SPL if he would consider incorporating a particular element or inviting an adult leader or someone in the community to briefly address the troop.

For those of you whose older scouts (esp. PL's and Troop Guides) do not sign off on trail to first class, I'd like to know why? Honestly, I've had more problems training adults on this than boys. (Adults invariably fall for the "I did this at camp last summer when I earned __ MB" line, where boys will ask "Can you show me that skill now?" as we trained them to do.)

rr - Like I said earlier, I've been watching because I'm in a similar situation, but with an older age range. For what it's worth, I think Seabase is worth every sacrifice that an adult leader could make. I first took my crew with my oldest when he was 14. I had snorkeled Louee Key before, but doing it from a sailboat and hitting Sombrero reef the next day and swimming to the beach at Bahia Honda at the end of the week was over the top. But I understand the financial back-against-the-wall. I would simply put this in the boys hands. Explain that CC xx would like you to add a leg to your flight (and your son's flight) to make sure everyone travels from Illinois together, and ask them if they could chip in for the extra cost that you had not been prepared for. If the CC and COR reverse their decision, fine, the boys get some extra spending money. If not, everybody gets the respect they deserve. I'm just saying, whether you foot the extra bill or your crew-mates share the load, it will be worth it. (Oh, and your ticket and share of the seabase fee is tax-deductable since you are travelling as an essential leader. Here's hoping you get some income soon to make it worth itemizing.)

My pleasant surprise with troop backpacking experiences is that the younger scouts were good for the extra miles (up to 6 or 8) if the terrain is not particularly severe. So a hiking aree with loops that allow you to fit in more distance might be a good start. Your MBC will probably have some good suggestions for where you live.

The boys are entirely responsible for opening meetings, announcements, and closing meetings. Adults must request permission from SPL to give an announcement. Scouts name their own patrols, come up with their own yell, make their own flag. Sit as patrols. PL's and First Class Plus sign off on T2FC reqs. Outside of summer camp. We have a hard time getting our boys to "work" as patrols. They like doing the "ad hoc" thing. They like camping and cooking as a troop. Regardless, they do all of the shopping, cooking, and clean-up. (Actually our SM has a bit of a servant heart, so he'll pitch in with cleaning a pan or two.) We are trying to get SPL to complete the tour plans before handing them off for signature. That's always iffy. We encourage the SPL to invite crew or pack to activities, entirely at his and the PLC's discretion. If he doesn't contact the crew president, then we treat it as an activity for just the boys. (In a sense this means our crew takes 2nd fiddle to the troop, because my officers tend not to plan events when I'm not available. But, I feel the venturers have more responsibility for recruiting the qualified adults they need. And, the more they learn to organize events in my absence, the more likely I will have found my replacement!) In general, we set a vision for the boys which, by the way, still includes patrols planning independent overnights. We try to stay out of the way, mainly by maintaining an "old farts patrol".

Thanks for volunteering. The fact that you're an accomplished scout and still sticking around your senior year speaks loads. If you wanted to be sarcastic, you could suggest the dads apply to be Girl Scout Leaders. I recommend that you not be sarcastic. Ask for a scoutmaster conference. Explain your vision for the upcoming year. Explain why it's important for the boys to "skill-up" to the point that some serious backpacking gets done. Some things to suggest ... An "old farts" patrol. A patrol cook-off. Dad's vs. the boys. Pan polishing contests. Site inspections. Song/skit competition. You explain that the fastest way boys will learn to emulate will be if they see adults operating independently from them. Be patient. It took you a while to Eagle, it'll probably take these dads a while to come around. Remember positive reinforcement. Let them know they're doing a good every time you see them take a step back.

I figure it's been that way since Genesis chapter 2 ... [fruit crunching] "So, do you feel any smarter, yet?" "No, do you you?" "I think we've been scammed." "What's a scam?" "Nevermind, I'm gonna chat with the monkeys." "What, I'm no good for conversation anymore?" "I'm sorry Ms. wannabe a diety, but at least they have the sense to not let snake-talk get in their fur." "Oh yea, well at least they have fur ..., I saw that look in your eye when you saw the chance to get God-smart. Explain that to your chimp-chump friends in your hairless hide!" "Don't start with me, you're walking just as naked as I am ..." "Uh-oh"

In Arabic, there are two words for sin. One is the same word for "a mistake", something that flies in the face of cultural norms, or inadvertently offends someone sensibilities. The other is "an offense", a corruption, a tendency to rise up against the Almighty. If you have a uniform culture with defined norms (e.g., a young man and woman should not sit in the parlor unchaperoned) then lots of sin/mistakes can be regulated as if they are sin/offenses. In a diverse culture such as ours (where folks of different beliefs are here because their forefathers were fed up fighting someone else's holy wars) it's no longer possible to enforce the sin/mistakes. Just like scoutfish's girlfriend, my old-country grandparents were fit-to-be-tied over this. Moreover, I think we are still fishing around for the lowest common denominator of sin/offenses. So is naked walking a sin/mistake or a sin/offense? Guess it depends on how many cars run off the road as a result.

Included in summer camp: parking, meals, lodging, your buddies. There's no archery or rifle range at Disney, and Mickey won't allow you to angle for them fish in the moat -- not even catch and release.

The venturing program encourages each crew to come up with its own set of by-laws. Some of those are online. Many of them may fit what you might expect from a troop committee. You may just have to tweak the names of the positions. (And drop any clause about public displays of affection!)

CCb, first of all, thanks for volunteering. I've seen several CC's from the perspective of a scout parent. The best ones do the following: 1. Coach adults (i.e. the ones who don't have an official position) in serving the pack. 2. Follow the lead of any adult who has a good idea. 3. Keeps meetings short. 3. Starts looking for their replacement from day one. Most direct contact leaders (be they CM, DL, SM, ASM) need a small number of things: 1. active parents, 2. facilities, 3. money, 4. training opportunities, 5. coffee and/or flowers (depending on the preference of the leader). CC's who provide these may consider themselves a success. Those who provide a plethora of advise to a CM on "how things should be done" can consider themselves failures. Finally, attend district round-table and get an idea of what other units are doing. The face-to-face time with other unit leaders is probably the best way to tell if you're on the right track.

NJ - The study did control for "Marital Happiness" (or lack thereof) and psychological well-being; however, that's a far cry from accounting for multiple potential causes for divorce (e.g. adultery, financial stress, physical abuse, etc ...). Even if those factors could have been measured with any degree of precision, this sample was just too small to come to any reliable conclusions from that much detail. Since it is unethical to randomly assign divorce or marriage "treatments" to families experiencing infidelity or abuse, we'll never nail down the chain of causality for certain. The physical effects of infidelity (through disease) or abuse (through injury) are well documented -- as are the near term psychological effects. I figure there are as many families who stay together and bounce back from such assaults as there are families who never experience a safe day until the parents part ways. In those cases, kids have a lot more to worry about than standardized test scores. JB, sometimes that which doesn't kill us just leaves us hobbling along hoping the next hit won't do us in!

SF, any of those parents wanna rent a timeshare in Orlando on Race Week? Send 'em my way. I don't want 'em on any trip with me, but I'll take their $$s! Let's not neglect that for some of us, that means splitting our vacation time between scouting and family. Now, our scouts love a lot of the "same old same old", they actually voted the low-end campout as their #1 activity. My crew nags me to camp on a local freshwater beach about 2 hours away every year. That is the majority's preferred "super activity". The problem with that is it's too crowded on the weekends so the adults need to take off work, but I'm already using my "scouting" vacation days for summer camp, an extended backpacking trip, and Seabase. The "low-end" stuff may be cheap, but the kids love it. Just challenge them to add a twist to make each weekend a little different. Then if a group of them decide on something high-end, remind the parents that this might be their opportunity to get a little extra labor on the cheap before the kids go off to college and the real drain begins.

I think most campers do cat holes. Decomposition is pretty quick on those islands. No experience with Cornplanter.

Also, I would add that the "hit" in this study is small relative to other things that happen to kids throughout the world (war, famine, pestilence, etc ...). And we're talking averages here. I'm sure you'll find some kids who do better than average after a divorce, but the majority who do worse pull the curve down. CCb, I intentionally did not use the s- word. Your "evil stepmother" situation shows that sometimes divorce is merely the symptom of our inability to love unconditionally. Adultery or abuse are truly harmful to people, and I agree that sometimes divorce is the only way to "stop the bleeding." But that does not negate the observation that the biological parents sticking together (absent infidelity or violence) is the best we can offer our kids. My parents argued constantly. Threatening divorce. It was insufferable. But I saw them tend to each other at the end of their days. Over the long term, I think I gained.

I think your boys are on to something. They seem to be a clever lot, so ask them what behaviors they would consider: 1. rude 2. immoral 3. plain stupid 4. just lame Persuant to a discussion our troop had this weekend, you might want to toss in "I promise to never pick on an adult leader's playlist until I've listened to the artists he selected."

Bd and bd, Thanks for those opinions. I never thought that question would wrankle anyone. (I treat it as more like the scouting equivalent of "What's your major?"). I don't think our troup treats W-I's and W-II's any differently, but I'll have to look at that the next time we host some cubs. I agree a solid friendship with a scout means the world to a cub (and his parents). It does not always transfer into sucessful recruitment, but it's a good idea on principle alone.

He also heads up a shooting team, and I told him I would take up where he cannot. Why not let him lead where his talents are? He can be an ASM and you could ask him to help counsel shooting sports MB's and maybe set up a few venues for your boys to attend and shoot some skeet or whatever. Amplifying on what jts said: just a couple of ASMs like that and your boys will have an active schedule that will be the envy of your district. One more hint with regard to sports. Try to set up events and overnights that are near where your 2 athletes have games. If they know you are trying to support them during the athletic season, they'll appreciate it in the off-season. Your boys might want to try and "host" a bonfire for their team once or twice after a home game.

SN - it never works out that cleanly. If the trip falls apart because rr won't make the extra effort his CC is requiring, then the entire crew loses the boat fee ($5800) plus whatever airfare is non-refundable. If the crew is willing to pay extra in boat share for a replacement adult to come along. He might be reimbursed. But it would be a mess. Obviously the cheapest solution is to be more flexible with the rules, but if the CC is not budging and the COR upholds his opinion, it's time to figure out the best compromise for all involved. If everyone pitches in another $100, they can have $800 for another adult to just fly down to FLL (and back, twice, if he/she doesn't want to stay the week) with the 6 other crew members.

Ditto Oak Tree. Indian Rivers was especially accomodating because the hauled my kayak free of charge. They were happy for the other 30 paying customers! Did Backaloons once, which was nice. I definitely prefer the islands.

Sounds like your boys have already told you their opinion. I think this troop has a lot going for it. You listed at least four adults who are on the roster. You may have more in your corner than you realize. (What about the former SMs' sons and other boys who graduated from the troop? Any of them ASM material?) Get a hold of a roster and get your COR and institutional head thinking about this. You have one patrol. The boys are not missing out on the patrol experience. As long as the adults keep their distance and let them operate, they'll be fine. You don't want them to get so comfortable that they stop trying to recruit their friends, but being small has its advantages. Large troops have a laundry list of problems. One of them is the huge demand on your time communicating with lots of adults when all you want to do is get a couple dozen boys to have fun in the same woods on the same weekend. An effective large troop knows how to get the most out of you, even if you're not SM. So I don't think you'll waste any more time here than in some other troop. Make sure your CC has talked to every parent about the role they could play on the troop committee. If he has, then you can be fairly certain that you're "the guy." Once you throw your hat in the ring, find your unit commissioner, tell him your concerns about your troop size and ask if there are similar troops with whom you and your boys could get together from time to time. Oh, and thanks in advance for volunteering.

NJ It looks very scientific with a lot of equations and stuff, so I am going to let those of you who read that sort of thing read it and tell the rest of us what it really says. Well, I usually charge big bucks for this sort of thing but for you guys ... The study is as much about applying the "latest-and-greatest" innovations in statistics as it is about the impact of divorce. You see, there are plenty of projects looking at larger #s of kids that show divorce puts kids at a unique disadvantage (more than other causes of single parenthood), but each of those have disadvantages. Probably the most striking, is that they observe kids at a single point in time -- usually after the divorce has occurred. This means you don't know if anything that distinguishes children of divorce reflects the impact of the divorce itself, or something that was going prior to the divorce. (As distasteful as it would be to blame child traits for parents' decisions, if you don't work to rule out that possibility, the science is incomplete.) As you already noted, gathering data over time is, well, time consuming and laborious. What most folks don't realize is that the math required to interpret that kind of data is fairly new. Slicing it one way may tell you one thing; another way, something completely different. If you slice it every way possible, the math may work out by pure dumb luck. SO this guy sliced it several ways but was very specific in his choice of "slices". Thus all the verbage about the math. The upshot of it all? - The 146 children of divorce were worse off than kids whose bio parents stuck together. - The "lower scores" (and the author looked at several) were not a factor of anything pre-divorce. - Things did not get worse and worse for the kids with divorce. However far "behind" they fell during the year of the divorce, they stayed that distance behind for the remainder of the study. What about that "unwarranted generalization" caveat? Well it's partly because the author is only talking about a small number of kids relative to the number of variables being examined. But it's also a self-serving statement that we all throw in to justify our jobs. (Translate: "This paper hasn't answered all the questions, so please fund us so we can keep working.") Bottom line, unless spouses are abusive or promiscuous (bringing violence or disease into the family), divorce hurts kids. It seems to be a single hit that puts them behind other folks (even the kids with "married parents whop kinda sorta go through the motions" Scoutfish mentioned). Kids don't exactly catch up right away from it, but whatever problems arise aren't compounded over the years. It's sort of a bad-news/good-news scenario much like it seems most of us have observed in practice.

SP - Our 5th graders are elementary. 6th are middle school (which shares a building with the high school). DE's have had lackluster results compared to one of our own MC's and a couple boys (who wouldn't mind ducking out of their High School) to pay a visit.

My son and I heard this one on the way to a troop meeting. A rose by any other name ...

Y'all are making me real excited about filling out my TP. Two youth are departing on their own (19 y.o. male and 17 y.o. female) for the first leg of the trip! Start throwing stones my way. Rra has taken enough knocks.