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Here's how I see it: As with most organizational charts, the most functional groups invert them. The positions with "leader" or "master" in their title actually constitute support staff. The scouts are on top, with their PL and APL identifying ways to support their patrol's success in scouting (i.e., reaching the pinnacle experience of hiking and camping independently your mates). The SPL and ASPL are so designated because age (sometimes maturity beyond years) results in their fellow scouts recognizing that if the PLs/APLs need support, these guys are the one's to do it. Their primary support is to facilitate communication and skills dissemination among the various patrols in the troop. All of the other Eagle-qualified positions of responsibility exist in support the troop. Coming along-side the SPL during whatever time they can spare from their respective patrol commitments. Imagine an ice cream cone. Not one of those pre-fab ones. Rather, one with a shell rolled from cake batter baked on a proper iron. Most scouts in general are the sprinkles and nuts at the top. (I'll allow you to sort out who in your troop is which.) The PL's are the ice cream. They determine the flavor of the troop. The boys with various PoRs are the cake of the cone, if they hold together, your patrols will stay anchored in the troop. The SPL is in one sense just another PoR, piece of cake. But he's also the point where the seams of the cone come together ... the fulcrum that all of the nuts, sprinkles, flavor, and cake ultimately fall on. Talk to him for any length of time, and you'll get a sense of the troop ... just like if you broke off the bottom of the cone, you might get a sense of flavor and texture of everything that's melted down from above. But, breaking off the SPL might also result in all the good stuff spilling out. The SM? He/she's a napkin that picks the drippings. Needless to say, the wrong balance of sprinkles, nuts, cream, and cake, and that SM will get worn pretty thin when the heat is on.

So, some advice from a guy who's seen some boom and bust cycles ... Meetings are tedious. Keep them to a minimum. They are basically to determine what your crew will be about. It sounds like you all are halfway there, so you won't have to go through all of those steps. Have training sessions. Involve baked goods ... preferably with chocolate ... or pizza. BUT DON'T LIFT A FINGER FOR THESE YOUTH. E.g., if one of them hasn't called about a campsite or guide/consultant by a reasonable time before the a desired weekend, the activity is in jeopardy of no-go and there should be no bailout. All you are there for is to sign where adult signatures are needed. To be honest there are some things in particular that interest me, so all they have to do is whisper some magic words (like "Dolly Sods") and I'm making sure that we have a plan suitable for the youth attending. IMHO, any paperwork that you have typically assigned to an adult troop committee (e.g., treasury reports, health information, tour plans, training) must be offloaded to the youth. You simply can't afford to have them ignorant of any accountability/safety issues that would be of concern to any adult committee. You and your crew committee are there to look over the youth's work, help them do a good job, provide a little continuity as youth come and go, and offer the occasional bright idea if one of your committee is into something cool. As far as the amount of time youth should dedicate to organizational stuff. If you have a crew of six, then everyone's an officer, and thus the officers do all of the planning. Most days, they can show up at the departure site, and pretty much wing it. But that's not a recipe for growth. If you have a crew of twelve then the folks who aren't officers are activity chairs (an officer can choose to chair an activity of interest to him/her). Officers coordinate activity chairs, who are basically youth who want the crew to do a particular activity. If you have a crew of twenty-four then you are really leaning on the officers to identify the best activity chairs from among your most active participants. Your VP-finance (a.k.a. treasurer) is tracking thousands of $s. Your VP-communications (a.k.a. secretary) really has to know what was discussed at the last meeting. Your VP-program should have contacted every activity chair in the last month and know who needs help with what. Your President or VP-administration should be working a substantial agenda. One of them should be attending district/council VOA. With those numbers or greater, the officers may need training in parliamentary procedure so that during meetings everyone has a fair chance to put forward their ideas. So, be clear to your 14 year-olds, that meetings may be few or brief, but adults are not to mask venturers' lack of time put into the program by constantly bailing them out. Certain reductions in busy-work may create efficiency, but too much results in reduced accountability, which results in people not doing their jobs, which results in fewer activities. At the end of the year, if the youth are bothered about unmet goals, they may decide they needed to meet more after all.

BTW, you're off to a good start calling it a "venturing" crew. Way to polish that brand!

@@Eagle94-A1 You need to accept the fact that the adults don't share your vision ... and the fact that there is no branding authority that will enforce the patrol method on any body of adult leaders. Politely point out to them in some after-action review when they squandered the boys' leadership opportunities. Let them know that you're there for them in spite of their cutting corners with the program. When you see boys pulling off the littlest thing, be prepared with high praise ... fire-works even (depending on local ordinances). We know you're gonna have lots of "two steps back." I am certainly having them in this merged troop. That's your baseline. Let us know when someone warms up to your way of doing things. Good luck with the tests.

Talk to your Venturing Officer's Association (VOA) they might be able to help with that search for good women with strong backs! Older sisters and young GS/USA leaders may also be open to the idea of back-country backpacking. Talk to college fellowships ... some of them have 21-and-over outdoor clubs and are looking for service opportunities. (I've loaned gear to several such young women over the years.) It's ideal if you have your committee chair do that legwork for you. It's really hard to balance SM and Advisor. If your crew committee is different people then your troop committee, encourage them to meet together once or twice a year. I actually insisted that the crew committee never meet in the absence of the Crew President. I tell my venturers that Advisor = Good for nothing and best used that way. To that end: Sign yourself and all your people up for VLST asap. Invite your youth along as well. That ceremony that you found? Pretend you never saw it. Ask the youth to research joining ceremonies. Accept no youth application that has not been completed by the youth except for the parent's signature. Strongly encourage any 17 year olds to take youth protection training, because you will all too soon be giving them and adult application. It's a wild ride, enjoy it!

Lacking any suggestion of more neutral and adequate terms besides "permissive" and "restrictive", I will proceed ... it's safe to say there is wide variation in the country about this. I grew up with people who were perfectly comfortable with restricting the activities of homosexuals (until their best buddy or family came out to them). In one sense the ban was an attempt by restrictives to use BSA as a tool in social engineering.Local variations aside, we aren't hearing anecdotes of folks seeing membership booming at their permissive CO. Maybe it just takes longer in this activist climate for any group to move forward with chartering. Or maybe more concessions are in order ... This is also a consideration of COs who may have a restrictive sexual ethic. Even very conservative church boards have members who may be offspring of atheists and may be parents of atheists. On one hand, BSA tells them they can select who leads the program, on the other it says that they have specific restrictions on philosophical grounds that must be followed for leaders and participants. Except for confirmation classes, this regulation probably does not apply to any of the church's other programs. It amounts to one more nuance that gives a board pause. The other secular trends that may play: More CO's may be looking for coed programs, With more readily available public land, boys are hiking and camping independently.

Some cheap seat math here: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2016/05/26/dr-robert-m-gates-america-needs-scouting/ So Gates referenced membership loss of less than 3% last year, compared to more than 6% in each of the previous two years. If the trend holds, BSA will be back to it's usual bleed. My definition of thriving in this climate: 1 or 2% gains over a number of decades.

What, pray tell, do I get to do? Read a dictionary? From Webster's ... 1 archaic : granted on sufferance : tolerated 2 a : granting or tending to grant permission : tolerant b : deficient in firmness or control : indulgent, lax What one person sees as 2a, another sees as 2b. Seems like an adequate description of how certain contemporary movements are viewed by themselves or by others around them. I understand that it is far more convenient to demonize someone's language on the path to do dismissing his/her observations. However, that behavior (as opposed to, say, suggesting more accurate adjective) is exemplary of what leaders of some public organizations weigh in regards to forging partnerships with BSA. Thank you again for making my point.

Well @@Stosh, that day may come -- or it may not, but I think your speech trickles down to lay leadership as "don't make waves".

There is nothing hypocritical about finding non-incendiary terms for broad movements. The organization in question identifies itself as restrictive in terms of sexual ethics. The prevailing mood nationally is toward a permissive ethic. As far as I can tell, this is precisely what people are arguing about. If you have more neutral terms for these opposing sides, suggestions are welcome. Now the published desire of certain activists is to ensure insure that BSA goes further in mandating a permissive ethic, regardless of the wishes of the chartered sponsor. So, my repeating to a board -- one that recently came off of litigation to preserve it's right to uphold restrictive sexual ethics -- that "there IS no legal action" rings sufficiently hollow as to give half of them pause. Add the one guy who thinks two dozen 10-year-olds will wreak havoc on a building, and the scouting proponents can't overcome a motion to table. @NJScouter, obviously, I think none of this is rational. I am just describing a situation where perhaps other programs are fast-tracked, but rolling out a BSA unit is shelved. If the opposite is occurring elsewhere, it would be encouraging to hear that story.

Take the "or equivalent" to mean parallel Red Cross certification. In fact, if a RC supervisor like the Women's Air Corps retiree who taught me how to swim (as in we 5th graders knew we mastered the stroke when she stopped cussing at us) runs the pool, don't even think you'll be allowed to walk in with your BSA-trained staff and borrow the facility. She wouldn't be prejudiced against BSA Guard, she just would make darn sure people who she knew could forestall death (i.e.,the ones she didn't have to cuss at during drills) were managing your event. Of course people are different. And the ones who have never had to rescue a drowning victim will behave differently than the ones who have. I'd be more worried about a manager who doesn't give you a hard time. I would be REALLY worried if trainees like E94 felt like they couldn't demand to extract tired swimmers.

Thanks for making my point, Merl.It's not the legal action itself. But, the potential rhetoric promised to all who step outside "the line." That's what certain CO's have limited stomach for. Sticks and stones, no problem. Names, they hurt.

Or, you only do that which you would put up a fight for.

Trailer or none, when I have new drivers (to scouting), I circle them up at departure time and review Risk Zone basics. (Do not caravan. Meeting point is at xxx. Directions (with cell #s) enclosed. If you don't know where that is, speak up. Stop and call as often as you need. My navigator -- crew VP or SPL usually -- has my phone, so your navigator may text if need be. Whoever follows the traitor, if you can't see the into the cab through the mirrors, someone's doing something wrong.) Even with veteran transport, we circle up before departure. Bottom line: get your head in the game.

dozen's hopefully. But, all are parents' second choice. So, instead of five Cubs now who bring five or ten more in the fall, and maybe that many more by end of year, we have once enthusiastic parents whose favorite elders (I cannot possibly understate the trustworthiness of this particular lot) are giving them a "not yet." This is not an excessively deliberative body. If there's an idea and a half dozen folks who want to go for it, green lights are everywhere. The fact that this item was pushed back on the docket for several consecutive months speaks volumes to the liability threat from activist's statements.

First, welcome to the forum and congratulations.This is one of my favorite activities (preferablly at 6 AM in the middle of a lake with at least 200 yard lengths). No you don't have to swim 3 miles to get three patches! Take your card to the scout shop and order as many as you need. I would suggest, however, that you somehow mark the first patch you were awarded (e.g. sew a black thread in the back) so that you can save it in your collection once you've worn it a season or two. The manager of your pool usually has specific requirements as to what he/she considers qualified supervision. Follow them. National camp school also has generic guidelines for acquatics staff in case your are concerned that your pool manager is too easy going, start by looking here http://www.ncsbsa.org/resources/ncs/. Basically, you want to set aside the lanes that you need, make sure there is a minimum of cross-traffic, and have some system of accountability. As far as training the swimmers, use a step-up program over several days (e.g. 100, 440, 880 yards ... then a mile) so that everyone's comfortable before the day they do the mile. (Obviously, if they all just did swimming MB, you can start at 880. If it's been a year, and the boys aren't all swimming regularly, start everyone at 100.)

This is entirely recycled info, which we've already discussed elsewhere. A halving of rate of decline implies stabilization of membership ... like a year of slightly cooler temps than last implies cessation of global warming, Zach Whals is right that we have a lot of work to do ... For example, we need to convince activists to whole-heartedly support the the rights of CO's to vett leaders along the lines of restrictive sexual ethics. Rhetoric like his and Dale's (whose very predicament was directly a result of the absence of such a notion) is the stated reason why I'm dealing with a cagey CO. Maybe the five cub scouts who could have been registered this spring don't amount to much. But if in every community across this country there are five potential recruits whose membership is being delayed (let's hope merely delayed) to every one's that is being smoothed over, we have problems. I don't what that true ratio is. I just know that the BSA is still in decline. The permissive have yet to prove their worth numerically.

Yep, when I was SPL I didn't touch QM stuff unless asked. (Airing out wet canvas after a rainy trip might be an example of when I'd be asked.) Never had a new scout patrol, just a new patrol of me my APL and bunches of crossovers, who after after a couple of years, became mighty fine PLs in their own right. I guess that's why I never felt my job was an imposition. Never talked to the SM about it, unless I was in over my head. Went to JLT after being SPL for a while. Only then did I realize that patrols sometimes need a little help, and some people needed trained in what I thought came naturally. (Turns out I probably was learning by example and just didn't notice.) I also learned that boys from my neck of the world made light of burdens and city scouts were wimps, but that's a different story.

Hey Zuzyson's SM,! Yeah, you with the mystical hacker skills that can actually make scout net work ... Are you reading this forum? If so give us a nod. We're all,friends here. Don't feel like you have to explain yourself or anything. Message our moderators if you'd rather not air laundry here. They can relay to us only that you're reading. I just figure it would be healthy if folks understand who might be on the other end of thier keyboard.

Are SPL's more occupied than they used to be? I don't recall the position being a burden to me. I can't recall what MBs I was earning at the time ... probably nothing too serious. I'd fill out a roster, march to flags, report attendance, chill at the trading post, inspect camp, help resolve the conflict du jour, chill in the hammock, go with SM to leader's meeting, go shoot/swim/hike during open program, catch some tree frogs for the camp snake. I leaned on my PL's a lot. They rose to the occasion. In general, we find the PL's to be the most occupied with their time. It's on them if food isn't picked up, cooked, and dining area spotless immediately thereafter.

Our boys absolutely refuse to consider any other camp (and campsite) than the one they've gone to for decades. Even after merging with a majority of boys who went to a different camp, seven boys held fast to their tradition. In fact, this year a dad came who had been in this troop at this very camp (on this very site) as a youth!

The detractors aren't former scouts, or parents of former scouts. I think we have the opposite problem. This is a young congregation (basically, the college students who never went home). They put a lot of "muscle" into the church -- both in terms of program and building. Their boys are scrubbing walls and planting flowers on clean-up day along side everyone else. Once a month the 4th and 5th graders load up bags from the food pantry for distribution. So, there is zero confidence that "one more program" will yield more service time than what we already have. My most credible pitch was that I've seen the program makes leaders of parents. Who, having brought kids through scouting, were better teachers and board members. That definitely resonated with everyone. But that's a pretty long-range vision ... and it could theoretically be accomplished at some facility that didn't get as much traffic as this one.

My recent foray into being "commissionerish" (helping some parents get their church to sponsor a Pack for their boys) indicates that this is easier said than done. Multiple parties want "fixes," and they want them before we even start building capacity! I'm just glad that task didn't involve any of my kids. It allowed me to keep a broad view of opportunities. Zuzyson is an inadvertent stumbling block to his dad's role as UC. Dad should have told council to pound sand for as long as he'd be a troop parent. That way SM could gripe to Dad about how some other UC was blowing smoke, and maybe Dad could take the SM's side, but say "Yeah, UC X is a blowhard. But, you know, maybe under all that smoke there's a fire to douse."

A friend's son and everyone in his troop endured the night and are now returning home.

To be clear: in either BoR scenario I would expect the boy to be approved. I just don't see one being more comfortable than the other. That's a why conference with the SM soon after transfer would be in order. The boy could make clear that if the SM doesn't want the conference to be completed on that day, he'd be okay with it. But in the case of Zuzyson, with sports season looming that may be kicking the can quite a few months down the road. In context, maybe the best thing he can do in a troop of crossovers, is talk to his coaches or his fellow athletes and see if they can set up a clinic in the gym to help new scouts with fitness requirements. Or if he transfers to a unit without that many cross-overs, for fits and giggles, set up an athletics MB class. Maybe even invite his troop to be color-guard at one of his team's events. There has to be a way to make this fun for the boy and good for the new troop at the same time.