Prairie_Scouter

I think I'll go with scoutldr on this one. Just sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Personally, I don't feel much better about putting the adults on the roof, much less the Scouts. But, if you're already planning this, just make sure that you get LOTS of liability waivers. And, it's probably a good idea to see how the parents feel about the activity.

I'm assuming that you guys have talked to this person about the problems you perceive. Other than that, I agree with Eagle. If the CC isn't going to willingly step down, you'll need to get your COR involved.

Hi Kristi, Definitely looks like fun. Nice job. Coupla notes.... Committee meetings? Probably should get them on there to make sure they don't conflict with other events, or just fill up a weekend too much. Might want to put your Roundtables on there as well. On our Troop calendar, we also put the main events from the local school district calendars, so that we know when breaks are, special events, etc, that we don't want to conflict with. Around here, Columbus Day is a long school weekend (the schools schedule their parent conferences and grading days at the end of the week prior to Columbus Day, and the kids have those days off as well), so we avoid scheduling Scout activities that weekend because we know many families will have other plans. I agree with Semper that 2 campouts in a row might be a bit much. Just a thought...a few years back we decided to start having 2 PWD workshops before the event. The first was called "shaping" and concentrated on car planning and basic cutting. We provided all the tools, including power tools like band saws, etc. This seemed to be really popular amongst tool-challenged parents and Tigers who hadn't raced before. Then, we had a workshop called "wheels and axles", for, well, wheels and axles. No car cutting, just working on polishing the axles, etc. My 2 cents, and worth about that

I think both of you guys have been licking at the bottom of the bowl again. You know, that stuff's not really butter

Our Pack still sells popcorn, but it gets more difficult every year as prices increase and they remove the low cost items. We had a $40 item last year! That's not the kind of thing people are going to buy on a whim outside the grocery store, or door to door. The coordinators made a big deal about people who collect the tins; I'm told that over the years, they make up a set. I've never met anyone who's interested in that. I've told our coordinators for years that they need a nice little $5 item that we can sell; we'd sell tons of those. No dice. The popcorn company seems to think bigger is better.

stls, Not sure why you think a "pedophile" flag should go up every time an adult gay talks to a young adult male. Should the "lesbian" flag go up every time an adult female befriends a young adult female? I don't know what you think happens when 2 people have a "strong brotherly bond"; I have a strong brotherly bond with my brother, and no state or federal laws are broken as a result. I have a strong brotherly bond with several of my close friends; once again, no state or federal laws are being broken, nor, for that matter, any sort of activity that anyone of any religious sect would consider "immoral". This automatic link between homosexuality and pedophilia needs to be identified for what it is, part "old wives tale" and part homophobia. It doesn't sound to me like this conversation was had within the confines of a professional relationship of the type you mention with counsellors, principals, teachers, etc., so those laws wouldn't apply. This sounds to me like 2 friends talking and confiding to each other. Whatever advice may be doled out in those kinds of discussions may be good or bad, but isn't illegal. What kind of friend would he be if he turned this friend away when he needed someone to talk to? And, since we don't know if this conversation was held within the context of Scouting activities, we don't know if G2SS would apply or not.

Kind of depends on you perspective, I guess. I think every Scout needs to make 1st Class; the process of getting there teaches them basic outdoor skills, and the tasks involved teach the boy teamwork and attention to detail. Once making 1st Class, a Scout may go in a number of different ways, but even if they never make another rank, they can fully participate in any adventure the troop may take on.

I guess I must be missing something. Cell phones are like anything else. They are tools that, when used appropriately, are a positive addition to the Scouts p-gear. If used inappropriately, they can be a problem. It's been the practice of our troop to disallow cell phones except for the adult leaders, but I personally wouldn't have a problem with allowing the Scouts to bring cell phones with some limits on usage. One, no game playing; that's in the same class as bringing Gameboys along. We want the Scouts to interract and toys meant for individual use detract from that (although I've seen Scouts having a great time clustered around a Gameboy, taking turns playing). Two, their use should be limited. If they need to talk to someone that much, perhaps they should stay home. I think cell phones are like anything else; their proper use has to be learned just like anything else. They're just like any other modern convenience we've brought to camping, along with sealed tents, GPS systems, and charcoal. They all have their appropriate time and place. Yes, on campouts we are supposed to be communing with Nature, but bringing along cell phones, and using them responsibly, needn't take away from that. I always laugh when I have someone tell me this or that shouldn't be allowed because , "you know, Lewis and Clark didn't need cell phones". Somehow, I think that if Lewis and Clark had access to cell phones or GPS, they would have been pleased as punch.

It seems to me that the Scouting program will work with pretty much any size unit as long as it is well managed. Whether the Scouts will get that "personal" experience is another matter. Our past SM told me story recently while we were talking about a local troop that has about 90 Scouts in it. They were at a Camporee, and, as you might expect, the Scouts spent a good deal of time talking amongst each other. 2 of these Scouts got to talking, introduced each other, and discovered that they were in the same Troop. Now, that's a single story, but I do think that the larger units might have some difficulty in keeping the "togetherness". Our own troop has about 20 Scouts in it, so certainly not very big, but our Scouts like it that way because they all know each other really well. Once again, a sample of 1. I'd like to get our troop a wee bit larger, but I don't want to get to the point that every meeting is like a Scout convention.

Well, I might throw out the idea of using the Owasippe Scout Reservation in Michigan. It is the oldest continuously operating Scout camp in the U.S. It is on a large tract of land. I forget the exact acreage, but it is a big place, and has state forest land continguous to it. The camp is owned by the Chicago Area Council, which is trying to sell the camp because it cannot afford to run it any longer. Making Owasippe the home of Jambo would solve 2 problems. One, it would remove the risk of ever being forced to leave because it is on land owned by BSA. Two, it solves the problem of funding Owasippe.

FScouter, I doubt that all of the reporters on these stories were "scout-haters", really. The fact is that most news these days relies on "body counts", and if you're having an event that has a newsworthy body count, you can be sure that they're going to chase it. Bring in a few so-called experts to punch up one side of the story, and you've got yourself 30 seconds on the 10:00 news. If it had been the Girl Scouts, or Indian Guides, or anybody else, the story would have probably run the same way.

Thanks, tj, for that enlightening and revealing story. The more we hear of stories like this, I think the more we'll have people understand better what it means to be gay, and we'll realize that it's really no different than being straight in many ways. Of course, as Kahuna said, there will be those who's religious beliefs will prohibit them from being accepting of you. We have to respect their beliefs regardless of how wrong we thing they might be, and hope that BSA will eventually become more open in its policies.

Could someone please provide a little more information on the brochure that describes good practices for getting volunteer help? Like ronvo, I've been through a number of leader training classes, and it's never been mentioned that I'm aware of. Sounds like a very helpful piece of information that could save some time while learning what works and what doesn't. Sounds like we've all tried the same routines.

20/20 hindsight is always crystal clear. It's bothersome that BSA is talking in terms of "not being ready to place blame". Unfortunately, you know that within a few days, the lawsuits will follow, and BSA will have to blame somebody. Having said that... If the president's security measures were compromising the safety of the Scouts (which we don't know was the case), then they simply should have told him to stay home. Not knowing what cooling remedies they had in place, it's very easy for the "experts" to say, "they should have done this or that". For all we know, maybe they did everything they could. All we know at this point is that they were left in the sun for hours waiting for the president to show up. The president's group obviously knew what the weather was like, since that was their reason for cancelling. Maybe they should have had the sense to say, "you know, we can't leave those boys sitting out in the sun that long waiting for us". Like I said, 20/20 hindsight. In regards to the tent, I can't make any sense of how somebody would have been allowed to place a 20 foot metal pole within reach of power lines. You have to think somebody dropped the ball on that one. You know, I don't know that a town of 35,000 would be all that surprised for these tragedies to occur given the conditions. Being Scouts doesn't make them immune to nature and quirks of judgement. Obviously, some things to be learned from all this, and I hope BSA doesn't have to spend more time dodging lawyers than correcting the situation before the next event.

Fuzzy, TTFN is just an oldey, but a goody, that means "tah tah for now", ie, see you later

Bolo, Exactly what "bad press" from the "liberal media" are you referring to? The articles mentioned here all seem to be pretty straightforward. Under conditions like those at Jambo, you really can't just fall back on "you can give the Scout some water......". It really is incumbent upon the leaders to make sure that they're Scouts are keeping hydrated. This isn't one of those "lessons" we teach our Scouts by letting them fail on occasion. Heat is serious business. I'm sure that they're doing the leaders are doing the best that they can, but hopefully, they'll learn something from this for the next Jambo.

I guess I don't understand why the homeschooling families need their own den. That MIGHT be ok if there's enough of them to form a normal-sized den, 6-8 kids. That might make their scheduling easier. Otherwise, I'd just look to form dens of the right size, and go from there. But, maybe I'm missing something. Like I said, I don't understand why they think that they have to have their own den.

Our troop doesn't have any written by-laws, so most of our "rules" are really just "strong suggestions". Having said that... We have 4 members on our committee. All are trained up to leader specific training. We have 6 ASMs. All trained up to leader specific training. SM (me) trained through leader specific training, and Okpik (winter camping). I'd give Wood Badge a try, but so far I can't get past not wanting to stand up and sing that song in front of everybody . Does everybody do that? I'm working towards becoming a climbing instructor as well. So, we don't exactly "mandate" it, but we do expect all of our new leaders to go through training, at least up to leader specific. The training really does help a lot, in my view, IF you've got good instructors. I can read the books as well as anyone, but the good leaders bring their personal experience to the class, and that adds a lot of value.

Once again, homosexuality may be a sin within the constructs of some religious beliefs, but that doesn't make it universal. What is the difference, really, between what religious groups are doing now, acting against gays, and the actions of whites against blacks in history until some corrections were made starting in the 1960's? In the anti-black agenda, we had whites (and I think mostly Southern whites) acting to limit the freedoms of blacks. Some used the Bible to justify their actions. It took a long time, but this is gradually being fixed, although there are still some extremist groups who would like to return to the old ways. I don't see the history of discrimination against gays any differently. The people most adamant against gays are using the Bible as their basis. And once again, this is gradually being fixed, even as many fight against these corrections. It is really playing out quite similarly to the civil rights movement of the middle part of the last century. While some states are opening doors to gays, others are closing them. The final chapters to this story are far from being written. How long BSA will be able to continue with their policies is open to debate, but I think it will eventually have to change if BSA wants to continue to be seen as "an American institution". My guess is that they will hold out as long as they can if the current leadership remains in place. The history of the U.S. is more about giving freedoms than taking them away. It's reasonable to expect that in the long run, gays will be afforded the same rights as everyone else. In the long run, I think BSA will have to change, or risk being marginalized. I hope this doesn't happen, and I'd like BSA to be seen as at the forefront of social change, opening it's doors, rather than going down the path of being "the private club". I just don't see this as good for BSA, or good for the youth of America, who we serve.

Hopefully, they can plan the President's next visit at a time of day that doesn't require the Scouts to sit out in the sun on days such as they're having. Things happen, but I think a little more common sense is in order.

I just checked on this recently, and was told that you're allowed to wear multiple pins, each one representing the highest number of years in each part of Scouting. Each has a different backing, so that's how they're differentiated. So, you could have multiple pins on your uniform.

Rooster, Same to you, friend. When I get that thing built, maybe we can pay a visit to B-P and ask him what he really had in mind

Well, gays trying to "legitimize their sin" is a view based on your particular religious beliefs. Gays, and others, might see their actions somewhat differently. stls, no need to apologize. Some issues come up here fairly regularly, and this gives old, and new, members an opportunity to discuss the issue anew, perhaps with a new slant.

"faith based mission"? Sounds like somebody is attempting to push the religious aspects of Scouting to the forefront.

You know, John, when you put it that way, you're right. BSA isn't run like a business. It's been a constant point of irritation to me that I can't seem to easily find information about how the National office is structured, who the leaders are, how things are done, etc. Maybe I'm just not seeing it and it is available, but while units and Councils seem to provide all sorts of info about what they're doing and who they are, National doesn't seem to do that. There are people on the forums who seem to have that information, so it must be available someplace, I wonder why it's not published on the National website. Just a poor, overworked Webmaster, perhaps?