perdidochas

OGE, My thoughts exactly. John-in-KC, Exactly. EDGE, (as a training paradigm), is nothing but generally accepted instructional practices rebadged.

I've never understood urinating on a campfire to put it out, especially if the person is planning to sleep nearby. I heard in a YPT training a horror story about a former scouter who would pee on a fire and encourage all the cub scouts to do it as well (he was removed for that practice, BTW).

As a volunteer Scouter, I'm often amazed (and irritated) at the way I'm treated by the prof Scouters. I find most of them to be very rude and very short with volunteers. I hope that they aren't that way with "civilian" (meaning non-volunteer) parents or donors.

Kudu, The EDGE way of training how to put up a tent would require learning with their hands and eyes, just like the conventional method. First, explain the basics of putting up a tent. (Explain) Second, show how to do it. (i.e. the scouts learning with their eyes) (Demonstrate) Third, have the scouts put up tents (i.e. the scouts learning with their hands). (Guide) Fourth, have several campouts where the scouts put up tents. (Enable) Please explain how that is not using their hands and eyes to learn how to set up a tent? I understand your frustration with the

Of course her post was a "BSA is bad, bye" post. What else could it have been. I mean she writes that she sees and hears that scouting is a men's club, and a testosterone club. If that's not "BSA is bad" I don't know what it is. The thing is, we don't know the whole story. If it's pretty much what she wrote, she's totally in the right. The thing is, it doesn't meet the smell test. There are important details missing. Older boys rarely just beat younger boys for no apparent reason. I would like to hear more about the circumstances around the beating. That doesn't mean that I think

I agree about knots. Need to know the uses of the knot. I would put that as part of the Explanation in EDGE. The only reason to teach knots is to use them while outdoors. That should be part of the Explanation.

In terms of the whole single mother thing, at our Crossover on Monday night, we had a father of a crossed over Scout who was really up in arms about the fact that mothers were invited to camp, if they wished. Our SM set him straight about it before our CC (a divorced mother of one of our Eagle Scouts turned ASM) tore him up. Got a few of the other mothers of crossovers (including my wife and two of her better friends) stirred up. Ironically, my wife and friends have no intention of camping with the Troop--they just didn't like this male chauvinist spouting off. Singlemom, find another

Last part of handout: "Summary Did you notice how easy it might be to combine Explaining and Demonstrating at the same time? Or Demonstrating and Guiding? While we show EDGE as separate steps, one step easily flows to the next. In fact, they are connected, and you can combine steps to accomplish the learning objectives and goals. You may need to go back a step if they dont get it." EDGE isn't just linear. It does involve going back and forth if needed. As I've said before, it's not a perfect model, but it's not bad, and it's easy to remember. It's not as rigid as critics

Beavah wrote: "1) Space learning over time. Arrange to review key elements of content after a delay of several weeks to several months after initial presentation. EDGE: Fail. Nuthin' like that in EDGE, though it's interestin' that I've seen several scouters here write about how they introduce this kind of delay when teaching or checking for advancement." I'd see that as part of Enable. Enable is using the skill in real life situations. The only way to do that is to do it after a period of time. EDGE accounts. "2) Interleave examples with problem solving exercises. EDGE: Fail. E

Not all Scout troops are the same. I'm sorry about what happened to your son. Also, National Boy Scout rules say that parents (not just fathers) are welcome to all scouting events, including camping. We have scouts from single parent homes, from divorced homes (split custody), and intact families. All are welcome. We have boys that live in waterfront mansions, and in ramshackle houses, and everywhere in between. You couldn't tell the difference between them in the Troop, as that is the way Scouts are supposed to be. I'm not sure where you get the idea that most of Scouting is a men's

I just don't see the whole objection to it. It's fundamentally sound. When you teach something to somebody, you tell them how to do it, you show them how to do it, you help them practice doing it, and you give them a chance to do it. It's what I learned in education classes as the way to teach things. All EDGE is is a repackaging of it. It's nothing groundbreaking. It's not radical. It just has a name that the marketers like, but fundamentally, it's just good teaching practice. I don't need research to show that it's good or not. The most radical thing about this is we are making teaching

References are a fairly modern thing. They require written language. We've been teaching as a species long before we had writing. We teach our own kids skills (using similar methods to EDGE) long before they can use a reference. (I've seen no evidence that cave paintings were instructional) EDGE, from what I can see, is used primarily for teaching motor skills and procedural skills. I don't see it practical for everything. I don't see any significant difference between EDICT and EDGE, except the acronyms used. As I said, I would think DEDGE would be slightly better than EDGE,

Jet (and I think Beavah), I think we are commenting on different things. I don't know enough about the leadership side of the EDGE equation. I do know about the educational side of the equation. Educationally, as a method to teach a procedural skill (i.e. knot tying, etc.), it's fine--it's really no different than people have been teaching other people from the beginning of humankind (except of course for the catchy mnemonic). The other stuff I have no idea about.

You know experts who object to Explain, Demonstrate, Guide and Explain or who thing it is useless? What is their preferred model? The only way studies would work on this subject would be to use two different methods to teach a skill. You can't absolutely say "EDGE" method doesn't work. You have to compare it to some other method. In addition, you would have to define what best is. Do you want to find the method of instruction that is fastest to accomplish? Or do you want the method with best long term knowledge? In going through the literature (that I can find w/o acces

EDGE is made-up. Poppycock, it's not. It's a good generic model for skills instruction, and is based on other models for skills instruction, with a catchy mnemonic to it. I don't see why there is any objection to it. (I'm specifically talking the EDGE method to teach skills, as is the requirement for different Scout ranks, not the entire system Trainer's EDGE).

I'm in the field of Instructional Design (ABD (all but dissertation (meaning I've done all the requirements for a Ph.D. in the area, with the exception of the dissertation))). I'd never heard of EDGE until I got involved in Scouting. That said, generically speaking, it's a pretty good model for skills instruction, using a mnemonic to remember the steps. It's not much different from what good teachers do daily.

Don't understand the nostalgia for the collarless shirts and the knee socks. I hated both when I was a Scout--I always wished that my Troop had been a collared shirt one. Glad that both of those things are gone, personally.

There is no way to do things without causing complaints--it is impossible to make everyone happy. I think it's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Did the crew that capsized have any adverse reactions, other than simply being cold for a while? Were they prepared? If they were prepared, what's the big deal? Boys and canoes=occasional capsizing. It's half the fun.

"Redneck" maligns working class, primarily Scotch-Irish descent, Southern white people.

Re: A scout is helpful. In the case of a habitual shirker, it is not helpful to the habitual shirker to do the job he is shirking. It is more helpful to figure out how to resolve it. Now, if the slow scout is just having a bad day, of course his fellow scouts should help him get things done. We all have those days.

Seattle, I'm kind of disturbed that you would even think of the weapon aspect of a knife in terms of Scouts. If you can't trust a Scout with a knife and are afraid they will fly into a murderous rage, then you either need to prevent them from getting a Totin' chip, or think about another hobby other than scouting. Our council (Gulf Coast Council) has a ban on sheath knives. The justification being that if a Scout falls with a sheath knife on his hip, the risk of being hurt if they fall onto their sheathed knife outweighs the utility of the knife. I think it's irrational, but I f

Sounds like the problem is the mothers are having conversations, not that they are speaking in foreign languages.

The key is keeping them occupied. First, don't just do crafts and "bookwork" or lectures. Intersperse things. Second, make sure the boys play some kind of active game during the meeting. Boys need to move!!!!

You are correct. They can't start on Wolf until after June 1. Work on electives and Belt Loops/pins, and on just having fun--play games, learn outdoor skills (square knot), etc.