mk9750

Welcome to the forum! I am guess ing that you are talikng about either bed wetting or a bag. Both are tough problems. We had something similiar one time. Had a boy who constantly threw up in is tent every Friday night / Saturday morning. It never happened Saturday night / Sunday morning. We finally realized that serving a standard Friday night snack fare, Mexican Madness, was the culprit. Once he stopped eating it, problem disapeared. Obviously, your problem won't disapear so easily. The reason I bring it up is that the result I think you are trying to prevent is the kidding this guy will get over it. And that IS a tough one. Especially if you want to try to keep it a secret. My suggestion - and I won't be offended if someone smarter than me disagrees - is to ask the boy and his parents if this can be talked about openly with his Patrol. If they will permit it, it can be used as a teaching opportunity. I suggest this only becuase often the best way to avoid being laughed at for something embarassing is to talk about it up front and show that there is nothing to be embarassed about. If they say no, then my next best solution is to prepare for it: Extra clothing and sleeping gear, and clean up right away in the morning. My fear is that sooner or later, the other guys will probably find out, and it will be then that the unfortunate side of human nature will take over. Best of luck! I'd sure like to hear what you do, and how it works. sooner or later, we'll probably all be faced with the same problem. Mark

Bob, Thanks for posting for me. I had my contribution at work, and could not retrieve it from home. As a matter of fact, this past week was the first time I've ever been on the site from home. Usually, I take a few minutes before and after work, and during lunch, to check things out. OGE, Eamonn, and Bob, nice job gentlemen. I hope these will be helpful! Mark

Laura, I certainly understand that if a Troop is working toward being completely boy run, but not yet there, sparing adults could be tough. But I suspect that if you point toward next year, you could do so if you tried. Two years ago, as the acting SM at summer camp, I had three other adults there for the week. Two of them took and completed BSA Lifeguard, and I am pretty certain that if one or the other of us wanted to, we could have made it three of four. But it does take a youth leadership group that plans well in advance, and works well with the boys in their Patrols. Fortunately, teaching the boys how to do this is our responsiblity. So if we do our job well, eventually, we should be able to do most anything we want at summer camp. I recall your thread on the hazing incident, and can understand how difficult it must have been for just two adults, and I agree that more adults should be recruited to go. But sooner rather than later, with you positive attitude, your guys will be able to run things on their own, and the two of you will do fine, I'm positive. Mark

In our Troop, we tend to be very formal. All adults are Mr. or Mrs. There is one exception, and I've had a blast with it for a number of years. Onc a Scout has had his Board of Review for Eagle, I invite him to call me by my first name. I am the only adult who does this. But the guys who make Eagle sure do seem to savor the first couple of times they call me "Mark". My son has had a blast with this, too, as I never thought about how this would work when he made Eagle. Eamonn - I envy you. Some of my best tims are the rare occassion that I have the house to myself. Seems the only alone time I get are in the car or the latrine. Enjoy your evening! Mark

OGE, We are like you in that we allow any parent to come to any event. Heck, we usually need the car space! But seriously, we experience good and bad by doing so. You are certainly right that well - intentioned parents are an assest to the trip. But misguided parents can and are detriments to the event, the Troop, and their sons at times. When that is the case, we have to very carefully explain to the parent what level of participation is appropriate. Most have gotten the message after a friendly conversation. Others take a bit more direct (almost rude) approach. But in the end, every parent who contnues to want to go with us has been valuable to the program once they understand how to support it. You bring up another issue that may again be the fodder of a different thread. You talked about homesickness. This is a phenomenon that I just can't seem to figure out. In my 8 years in Boy Scouts, our Troop has experienced exactly one case of homesickness serious enough to be evident to the adults. I just have never seen to occurances of homesickness that others seem to see. Th one boy who talked about being homesick kept asking the SPL how he could call home. The SPL ran interference for as long as he could, but eventually referred him the the SM. The Scoutmaster had conversation upon converstation with the boy, trying to convince him that there was no value to be homesick, that mom and dad were doing fine without him, etc. None of this worked. Finally, the SM gave in and was going to let the boy call home from his cell phone. As far north in Ontario as we were, the cell phone wouldn't work. No one ever understood why, but the boy was OK from then through the rest of the week. That was our first and only instance of homesickness. We cedit some of our luck to attending summer camp many hours away from home,which gives the boys the understanding that mom and dad aren't just goin to drop everything they are doing to come pick Johny up. But other than that, we've got no explaination for our fortune. Mark

the most lucrative fundraiser our boys have come up with is a spring yard clean up. We split the Troop up into crews of 5 - 8 boys and a parent or two, and sell ourselves to friends and family for spring yard clean up, mulching, planting, weeding, etc. A with everything we do (car wash, pancake breakfast, etc.), we leave it to th customer to determine te valueof he work done. We feel most folks re far more generous than we would have expected. Our guess is that we make easily 50% more by asking for whatever dnation the customer thinks it was worth, rather than setting a figure. Good luck to you! Mark

We collect an annual fee (this year $18.00) in addition to, and at the same time, as rechartering. This covers awards almost exclusively. During the PLC's annual planning meeting, they estimate the cost of each of the activities they decide to do, and develop a plan to fund the costs. We usually end up doing 3 - fundraisers a year designed t fund these events. Left over money gets split between the boys who worked the fundraiser ad the Troop general fund. In addition, almost every event, incuding basic monthly campouts, have a fee to cover food and transportation. I would much prefer the weekly or monthly dues, as I hink it is easier to make he boys responsible for this, rather than have mom or dad write a check. However, we think we balance this concession with the effort the boys must make to develop event budgets and plan for raisng the money. Mark

I agree that the BOR's interpretation of the requirement might off. However, I've wondered myself what is true. And I base that on the fact that TroopMaster forces any Eagle Required MB after 4 into Life (and any after 3 going for Life into Eagle). The boys in our Troop have the perception that it must be 4 and only 4 for Star, and 3 and only 3 for Life. Because of TroopMaster, I've never done anything to dispell their belief. I agree 100% that if the members of the BOR admit to making a mistake, they should fix it at the earliest oppurtunity, even if it not convenient. Mark

I second everything Laura says except one thing: Boys can and do take care of tents if they are expected to. Our Troop Quartermaster checks tents out to Patrol QMs. They are recorded by number, so the Troop QM knows what Patrol has what tents. Upon return from an outing, the Patrol QM assigns gear to each boy to take home and clean. Each tent is assigned to one of the boys who used the tent. At the next meeting, tents must be returned to the Patrol QM. He is responsible for verifying the condition of the tent. He then hands it back into the Troop QM. the Troop QM does a spot check or two to verify all is well. The Patrol QM is responsible for minor repairs before it goes back into storage, or to report major damage to the Troop QM. When we have a good QM, this process runs seamlessly (sorry for the pun). To answer OGE, we generally have 35 - 40 people on Troop camping trips, like summer camp. We've had as many as 62, and we have tents for all. This took developing a plan to raise the money to get there, and then about 3 years. We now are in a mode of replacing 2 - 3 tents per year. they usually are 6 - 7 years old when we replace them, but even then, most are still servicable. We've kept a few of these for demonstrations (to the community and for new Scout practice), we kept a couple to scavange parts from, and we've donated I think 4 tents to area Troops who are either just starting out or seeing big growth spurts. Mark

Night Fox, No, thank you for joining us! Nice post. And I applaud you for actively working to provide the resources the boys need to do the program they want. It's easy for us sometimes to say "Come up with something you want to do". It's another to have an adult leader who makes the effort to get himself trained so that they can do it properly and safely. Way to go! I'm predicting that if you continue to post, many here will find it beneficial. Welcome! Mark

Man, I feel like President Carter, with Begign (sp?) on one arm and Sadat on the other! Mark

OGE, Did I miss something in Barry's (Eagledad's) posts? I'm guessing that the boys in Barry's Troop do advance in roughly the right time frame. I just think they don't emphasize this. To put it another way, I think they work hard at keeping advancement a Method, not an Aim. Look, I am really happy serving the Troop I do. But from what I know, I would be happy in your program, in Barry's program, in Bob's program, and in the program of a few other people here (please don't mistake my style for meaning ownership or development of the program). Because it seems to me that regardless of what it is named, it works. Barry, I think I aught to leave defending you to you. Sorry if I've misrepresented you in any way. You haven't said that, but I know I've been acting as if I understand your position. Hope I wasn't too far off. Mark

Acco40, I respectfully disagree. I see your position as making morality a moving target. I don't believe that is the case. What is moral is right. What is immoral is wrong. What was wrong for years and years doesn't become right because society tolerates it more now than before. I agree that society's views on such issues shift with cycles. Your example about birth control is true. But even when society viewed out of wedlock sex as acceptable, it wasn't. Maybe it can now be talked about in polite circles, but I assure you it was wrong then and still is. Mark

OGE, It never fails. I put down on paper what I think is an excellent post, and somehow one loose remark misses my eye as I reread, and is fodder for rebuttal. But you are right to have picked it out. When I say artificial mechanism, what I meant was this. Our Troop uses all of the program you describe, although we do cheat on the NSP if the numbers are small, like they are this year. This year, two new boys were put into an existing Patrol, but we still kind of see and treat them as a "Sub- PAtrol", if that makes sense. But we do everything else: Troop Guide(s), dedicated ASM(s), program developed to appeal to the three general age levels of Scouts. The program plan the boys develop is geared toward providing an oppurtunity for boys to make 1st class in about 16 months (Crossing in April until just after their second summer camp in early August). We just don't call this First Class First Year. We call it our program. We've not had any philosophical discussions in our Troop (among adults or with boys) as to why we don't call it FCFY. We just didn't see the need to call something that we've always done (for the last 10 years) by a new name, and give all involved the impression that something new was going on. I think I can put a face to the worry by saying that at least I worry that declaring our program FCFY places too high a level of importance on advancement. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Eagledad seems to have at least unofficial imperical evidence that is does. But we firmly believe what we do works, and we know that 95% (or more) of what we do is in line with BSA. We just avoid using one if it's terms. What's somewhat interesting, I think, is that our SM actually came up with the basic framework of what we do himself. He took over a horrible program, one that was losing boys by the handful, and decided something needed done. He did a number of things that were radically different than the Troop was doing before, including implementing the basics of our program. Then he went to SM Fundamentals training, and found out that with few minor exceptions, Our program is the BSA program. He still struggles sometimes with the concept, best descrbed by Eagledad a while back, of never doing anything that the Scouts could do themselves. But basically, the sucess of our Troop has a lot to do with a smart man implementing a good idea. Fortunately, it was in line with real Scouting. At any rate, sorry for the phrasing when I said artificial mechanism. I did not mean such a negetive connotation. Mark

Acco40, WHAT? Golf isn't a sport? Now I am completely devoid of athletic activity. Thanks! (tongue planted mostly in cheek) Mark

I thought I was clear, but perhaps not. It was the father, a Unitarian Universalist, who thought his son might not have been permitted to join Scouting, and particularly our Troop (Sponsored by a Roman Catholic Church) except that he appeared to be Catholic, because he went to Catholic School. Our Troop, in the almost 8 years I have known it, has never, and would never exclude a boy based on what faith he is. That was the dad's perception. As to the gay arguement (AGAIN!), NJCubScouter's position concerning Trustworthy does more to support the BSA's position than argue against it. Trustworthy means the same today as it did 40 years ago, and it will mean the same 40 years from now. This is despite the fact that society has come to accept less trustworthy behavior. 40 years ago, morally straight included an assumption that NO immoral sexual activlty, homosexual OR heterosexual was acceptable. Society has changed to begin to accept immoral behavior, both homosexual and heterosexual. That does not mean the BSA should accept it. Man, why do I let myself get drawn into these discussions? Mark

Bob and Barry, I had a long post almost done last night and my computer froze up. Let me try again, but I'll cut it much shorter. It suprises me that neither of you guys see that you are saying the same basic thing. Apparently Barry doesn't like the style in which Bob writes, and there is a small but legitimate quibble over semantics. But you guys are saying the same thing. A quality program (Barry's phrasing) is one that folllows the Aims and Mehods of Scouting, and it will attract and retain boys. One of the Methods (and Barry seems to want to point out that it is only one of eight) is Advancement. Therefore, a quality program has a quality Advancement program. Barry wants to emphasis that Advancement isn't the goal, its the means to a greater end. But Advancement is important. A well developed program gives every boy the oppurtunity to advance, if he chooses, within a year or so. I think Barry would agree that making First Class in a year or so is a good thing, that it helps get to the real goal. I think he just feels that developing a special mechanism to make this happen artificially (FCFY)puts too much emphasis on advancement at the expense of the other methods, and possibly may even hurt a unit's attempt to meet the Aims. Barry, if you can look past the style, Bob isn't challenging you, I don't think. I think his misunderstanding of your position, coupled with the beginnig of your post that directly disagreed with Bob ("Not really Bob, not around here anyway") put him in a defensive posture. My point is that I have read both of your posts on this subject (in this thread and others) numerous times, and you guys are on the same page! Try to step back and see that. Because you two championing the same cause would be a force! And you guys are championing the same cause now, it's just that style blurs it. Reread each other's posts. Ignore what might seem like personal attacks. And I really think you'll both agree that there is more in common on this topic between you than is different. Thanks to both of you for your input. I learn a lot from you both. Mark

SagerScout, If this works, and it sounds like it should, THANK YOU! We are fortunate to have very few new boys who don't swim. But even some of the best swimmers struggle with floating, especially the very thin boys. This will come in very handy. Thanks! Mark

My hope was to keep the reasons for the question to myself until I heard a number of reasonable explainations. It may be that the topic is too inflamatory to deal with unemotionally, so I will cease trying to find answers for this here, and continue elsewhere. As such, I can explain why I was asked to do this. Although there is certainly no official pretext under which the SM can ask me to do this for him, I think you will see why he did. A few weeks ago, one of our older Scouts put together a patrol trip to Washington D.C. He asked the SM and the dad of one of the other guys to go. The SM, an attorney, led a discussion at the Supreme Court Building regarding court cases that might affect the Scouts. The cases that we have talked about in the forum were mentioned. According to my youngest son, it was very informative, and ended upon leaving the building. Over diner later that night, the SM and the other dad were sitting at their own table when the dad took exception with statements the SM had made to the boys when the SM said that BSA had the right to make their membership rules. The dad, a Unitarian Universalist, suggested that the BSA was one of the most discriminatory organizations in the country. The discussion apparently got rather heated, although out of earshop of the boys, as my son never knew it even took place. It included the dad telling the SM that the BSA excludes UUs, and that he believes the only way his son was permitted in Scouting, and Specifically our Troop, was because the boy goes to Catholic School. The SM is a very devote Catholic, and very supportive of the BSA stances regarding membership exclusions. His personal opinions come through very loud and clear when he discusses topics like this, and I am certain both these people had a difficult time trying to see the other's side of the issue. It seems as though the discussion got to the point that the dad hinted that he was going to pull his son from Scouting because it was obvious to him that "all of Scouting's beliefs are different from mine". The SM wishes he hadn't engaged in such a heated debate about a topic he didn't know enough about directly. He also believes that as far as this topic goes, he can't possibly research the realities of each organization's position with neutrality. He believes, and I hope you all feel the same way, that I am sufficiently fair enough to determine all the facts, organize them to make them understandable, and then to come to a fair conclusion. Thus, he asked me to do so, so that if he were wrong, I could point it out to him. But even more important is to be able to speak intellegently to this man in an effort to keep him from pulling his son out of Scouting. Thus, my motive for the research. For those of you who tried to help, thanks. Mark

NJCubScouter, I was actaully on that site when I saw your post. It does have a significant amount of information regarding the confilct between the two organizations. There is no question as to its bias, although they do seem to try to be fair. This assignment is difficult for me. I have based an opinion on the topic from threads that have discussed this already. I intend, as best I can, to put my opinion aside and gather facts, not opinion. My first review of the UUA website makes me believe that the facts are there, with biased opinions surrounding the facts. I'm pretty sure I can seperate the two. I'd like to hope that I didn't start another platform for debate. That wasn't my intention, and if it happens here, this thread won't accomplish what I need it to accomplish. Thanks! Mark

I have been asked by our SM to research the BSA's relationship with the Unitarian Church, particularly Unitarian Universalists. I have seen a few threads discuss this in the past, but they revolved around other central issues, and I'm not certain how much of the information was factual and how much was conjecture. Although I will also be trying to find information from other sources, anything you kind folks can give me will be appreciated. Thanks in advance! Mark

wingnut, During most every thread, someone writes something that makes me slap my head and think to myself, "I wish I had said that!" Well, I wish I had said that. All of that. Excellent post. Yes Laura, for those who may not have said it, Thank You! Mark

Wingnut, Welcome! Enjoy your stay at our little forum, and please contribute all that you like. Don't worry about being unpopular. Say what you think is right. If it's done without malice, you will be respected, even if we disagree. There is nothing "wrong" with being sticklers for the rules, especially when it comes to protecting youth. I do however, think it's never wrong to leave some wiggle room to cover those things for which youth protection is meant to, but for which there are no exceptions. Eamonn's situation is one of these. I agree he broke a rule. But I think the spirit of the rule would have been broken more if he had not acted like he did. If the boy were my son, I'd have hoped Eamonn would have done exactly what he did, rules be damned. Additionally, Eamonn did this with full knowledge of what the rule is. He knew he was breaking a rule, and he knew the potential consequences (both in and out of Scouting) for doing so, if someone wanted to make an issue of it. He showed TREMENDOUS courage. I applaud him. Contrast this to an adult who might have done the same thing only becuase he was ignorant of the rules. Shame on that person! He might get lucky and be able to defend himself based on ignorance, but in my mind, then he would be wrong. Know the facts, know the rules, and apply the rules to the facts. Anything less is negligent, in my view. Again, welcome! Mark

Laura, First, this is an answer from me, so it is long, as usual. Sorry to hear about your week. What should be a great time obviously turned quite sour. At least in our Troop, we have one guy every year who is like your young man who was hazed. The intensity varies from year to year, but every year it seems there is one boy who just can't help but be the kind of kid all the boys want to treat poorly. They usually bring it on themselves, as an attention getting mechanism, I think. But we have use these situations to our advantage. Whenever new boys join the Troop, the timing is such that we have just recently elected new leaders. Each new leader, as soon as he is confronted with the new boy's behavior, and the reaction of other Scouts (the beginning of hazing), is counseled very specifically about how to handle this. Our method for handling these situations is to have the SPL and the Troop Guide act has this new boy's best friends. They end up defending him, but even more so, they become his assisant in a tit - for - tat prank battle. We've been fortunate that the two older Scouts who help the new guy know how to keep from crossing the line. But as time goes on, this method has caused a boy who was destined to be outcast get accepted. At summercamp a few years ago, the boy who just couldn't keep from doing things that got him mocked had his skivies run up the flag pole. The boy, the SPL and the Troop guide had ALL of the older guys underwear up the flag pole the next morning. The older guys got back with a bucket of cold water during the new guy's shower one day. The next morning, all of the older guys found themselves on cots, on tent platforms, with no tent around them. the young guy and his two new friends unstaked the tents and just lifted them up off off them! It was the most hilarious thing any of us had ever seen. No one viewed any of these pranks as harmful, and they are still talked about around campfires years later. I think because we channel the SPL and the Troop Guide into helping the young guy, he gets a sense that he kind of belongs. We teach the SPL to make sure the new guy knows that as long as the older guys are having fun with him, instead of at his expense, he can feel secure knowing that he is being accepted. And this tends to reduce the amount of inappropriate behavior the new guys exhibits. I hope you will have noticed that there has been little intervention by adults in this method. And I think it's important that it look that way to everyone. But we are fortunate enough to have guys who follow a tradition in our Troop that goes back way before I got there: EVERY prank that is to be pulled is OKed by the SM or acting SM before it is done. Unlike many adults, we tend to let harmeless pranks go. When they might be dangerous, we tone them down are nix them. But because these are done with knowledge and consent, we've never had anyone hurt physically or emotionally. But our approval is very "behind the scenes", so that it is the boys (specifically the SPL and Troop Guide) who seem to be running the show. That way, the adults don't have to reach the frustration level you got to. I'm sure everything will work out for you and your Troop. It's very important for all involved, boys and adults, to realize that you guys learn every day, too. I tell most everyone I know that the first day I'm perfect, all the rest of you people who can't be perfect are in big trouble. No one seems too worried. We all muff it once in a while. Learn, make sure the boys learn, and make sure the boys see that you learned. All will be better for this. Good luck!!! Mark

Hunt, I think I've picked up on a subtle idea throughout most of the answers so far, and it is one that I think is important. It is also one that when said directly, could have the effect of offending many parents, but that is not the intent. I see one of the biggest values of Scouting as developing boys into Men. I capitalized Men because I see a difference in a male who has matured physically, one who can do adult like things, and a male who stands for something, who others look to as the example of character. In my expereience in this wonderful program, the Men our Troop has helped develop all had a number of common traits. One that is appropriate to mention here is that each of these boy's parents had very little influence on their Scout lifes. During Eagle Courts of Honor, when parents speak about their sons, it is obvious that there was always a keen interest interest in what their sons learned, how they did, etc. But never once did I see any of these parents pack their packs, make their son do a MB, get a rank that the Scout didn't want, or so many other things that could be interpretted as meddling. On the other hand, in EVERY case I have seen where parents did stuff for their son, or ask him to meet their expectations, the son ended up dropping out of the program eventually. If your son's Troop is generally doing it's job, your son will not need mom and dad interjecting themselves in his work. He will certainly do a badge or two that won't meet your standards, and, I'll bet that because you are good parents, he'll know they didn't meet his standards either. But these guys are amazing. So many times in 8 years I have seen examples where a boy has not been satisfied with his effort, and done something to fix it. Once, it was restarting Environmental Science because he knew he didn't complete all of the requirements, even though the blue card was signed. One boy felt bad with how little effort Basketry required at summer camp, and vowed (and lived up to) not doing any more "wimpy" MBs. One boy, considered legally blind, would not accept the break the Canoeing MB counselor offered, and insisted on completing the solo course he had to do, even though it was practically impossible for him. One of the biggest cases of shivers I ever got was when he finally did finish, almost past dark, and he knew he had done it, yelled "Whose you're daddy now!!!" It echoed across the lake for five minutes, it seemed. His sense of accomplishment was awe inspiring. These guys may have accomplished all of these things if mom or dad had monitored their effort, but what would it accomplish? Mom and dad won't be able to do this for ever, and I worry that when I get too involved in directing my son's efforts, that I am teaching him that he doesn't have to count on himself, that dad will be there to tell him when his effort was or wasn't good enough. And I don't think that is a lesson I want to teach. The word "meddling" has a nasty conotation, and I fear using it here. But Scouting is an opurtunity for a boy to become a Man away from his family, using the character his family provided him. If you are confident in the job you've done as parents (and it sounds to me like you should feel that way), than give him the chance to use Scouting to guide his path without much of your influence. He will not fail, and I'll bet he exceeds even your expectations. Good luck to him and to you! Mark