mk9750

Hey Scouting! Great question, I think. Here's my take. You don't hear the President of the United States begin cutting back on his programs or plans just because he's a lame duck. He pushes forward with his vision, and the plans necesary to make it happen. He does this knowing that another leader is going to be sitting in his chair in a few months. It might be someone who has similiar visions, in which case it's a good thing he started the ball rolling when he did. All that would be required is for the new guy to make minor adjustments to meet his own expectations. Or, the new guy might have a completely differnet philosphy, and might even want to scrap the whole idea. This is one of the leassons in leadership guys get in Scouting - Transfer of "power". Maintaining continuity between different leaders is a valuable skill to learn. In your case, it's likely that 14 year old Scouts have the same interests as the 17 year olds that begin the process. In addition, it is likely that the PLC planning this trip. If so, is it possible that there are no middle age Scouts on the PLC? I know every Troop is different, but our PLC has more guys under 15 than over 15. To answer the question specifically, in our Troop, when the PLC decides what they want to do high venture - wise, they appoint a boy to lead the trip. We call him the SPL for the trip, which I've never liked, but it's been that way forever, and even when we've agreed to stop this, everyone just kind of reverts back to it. Anyhow, the person (or pair, sometimes) is responsible for investigating possible sites and reporting back to the PLC so they can make the final decision. He works with an adult to secure the site. He develops a list of resources required, and if we don't have what we need, he presents the PLC with options for obtaining them. For instance, when one group wanted to start kayaking, the boy in charge evaluated whether to raise money to hire a guide and rent equipment, or raise money to buy equipment and get people in the Troop trained to lead the event. Our Troop chose to do it ourself, and then started flipping pancakes and cleaning up yards for more than a year to purchase 4 kayaks. Once the PLC has decided how to obtain the resources, this boy oversees any training that is necesary, schedules any pre event activities like shake down hikes, and coordinates stuff like meals and a duty roster. Last spring, the PLC wanted to "kick it up a notch" with the kayaking program. They wanted to do real whitewater, which was more intense than we had done in the past. The "SPL" (I still hate that!) for this effort was 16. This year, as they start going to the next step, the "SPL" will be my son, who is 14. And I am confident he can do this. The only factor I have seen that has stood in the way of any of our guys being successful as a leader is not age, but commitment. If the guy is interested in the trip - if it's important to him - We've never had a boy let us down. Our only disapointments have come when boys who really aren't interested in the trip are appointed "SPL". Well, after a string of relatively short posts, I see I'm back to my old habits. Better stop here. Your guys can do this. Give them the chance. There's no better feeling in the world as an adult than watching a trip come off with few problems after a boy you put your trust in makes it happen. Mark

Oge, I'm sorry, I had forgotten the health issues you face. I hope things begin to go your way. It's sad that it has reduced your activity here, but I understand completely. The First Family was right on the mark ,and I have a bid for a copy on E Bay right now. I'll let you know what I think once I get a chance to hear it. It suprises me little that you would want to assume a fictional identity. With some of the things that have been written by and about you, you sound like you'd be a blast at a campout. Adding appropriate clothing to enhance the scene seems just like you. I like my Troop (yeah I said my), but I sure wish I could experience yours. It sounds like a blast. Good luck with your health. I can only imagine how tough life would be with the added difficulties of diabetes, etc. I'll be saying a prayer or four for you. Mark

I'll check that one out, but knowing you, I'm sure you're right. And if so, wasn't I right? I knew you'd have that one at your fingertips! How've you been? Haven't heard or seen a whole lot from you here. Everything OK? Thanks for the help. I'm going to go on a search for the album now. Mark

If you will permit me to ask an un - Scout related question - I was just talking to a friend who was telling me about a comedy album from mid 1963. He could not remember who did it, but it sounded like it might be a group similiar to the Congresional Steps. This album was a spoof of the Kennedys. It had a track of JFK having a summit with Castro, Kruschev, and other world leaders at which they called for take out lunch. It also had a spoof of Jackie doing a tour of the White house in which JFK fumbles himself into the scene. As I understand, it was pulled from the market right after his assaniation. I realize the sensitive nature of people concerning his death, and I'm not trying to be insesitive. But this sounds hilarious. Has anyone ever heard of this, and could you tell me the name of the album and the name of the group? I'm thinking someone like OGE, who has shown some remarkable abilities to come up with song lyrics, might have this one somewhere under the grey dome. I'd appreciate anything anyone can share. Thanks! Mark

Sorry I missed one point I wanted to make. As you "Lead", make sure you explain to all of the boys what you are doing and why you are doing it. It would be great if you could make your first few weeks / months stricly JLT, but that would be boring for the Scouts, I think. But anything you do that an SPL or a PL will eventually do can be used as training. That way, you can do the stuff that will be fun and exciting, and still train your future leaders. And BTW, welcome!!! Mark

SM41, Congratulations, and good luck! Were I in your shoes, I'm not sure if I would recognize the terrific oportunity you have to start from scratch. I think all I'd see are the hardships ahead. Sounds to me like you've got the basis for a great beginning! I agree with EaglelnKY. Under your circumstances, with no one for the new guys to model, and having had no real Junior Leader training, I think it might be rushing it to get leaders in place within your time frame. I'm very supportive of the theory that the Scouts learn as well or better from their failures as their successes, but putting them in a position that is likely to lead to more failures than successes might not be the way to go. I like the idea of you providing the model for a few weeks, maybe even a month or a little more, before you hand over the reigns to a boy. Just gives them a better chance for success, IMHO. I've got to tell, you, I kind of envy you, now that I think about it! Keep us posted please? Mark

Dave, Sorry to see you "retiring". Having you here has been very beneficial. I do understand what you're saying though: If I came home and spent siginificant amounts of time doing what I do at work, I'd be a little upset with myself, too. Hope you'll check in from time to time, though. Especially to let us know where you landed. Good luck my friend! Mark (I hope you read posts for a coupe of days before you're gone completely, or this will have been a waste of time!)

This thread has caused me to try to see how I adress the boys in our Troop. Last week, when the thread was new, I figured there would be no sense in monitoring what I called the boys in my Troop, as the discussion may have influenced it too much. This week, I didn't even think about it until I was driving home. I believe the pattern that I noticed is fairly typical of how I do things: When calling out to a Scout, I tend to call them Mr. (last name). When being adressed, my response is often "Sir!". When referring to one boy while speaking to another, I call the other boy by his first name ("Are you and John going to meet with the Merit Badge Counselor this week?"). When talking to a Scout, I refer to adults using Mr. or Mrs. When talking to an adult in front of a Scout, I use the adult's first name. And lastly, I heard a couple of Scouts talking about our SM, and the conversation went "(last name only) gave me a hard time". I was very quick to offer the correction that it should be Mr. (last name). What I do find somewhat odd about my position on this is that I would prefer that the Scouts who are on this forum call me Mark, even if they aren't Eagle Scouts. Can't rationalize that desire, but it's what I prefer. And of course, the most important requirment I have is to be called anything but late for dinner. Mark

Adrianvs: I'd rather call your perception "misguided" rather than "warped". I believe your position that using titles is not a matter of respect, or that using such titles should go both ways in order to be deemed respect, is a product of the standards being loosened in our society. Just as it used to be wrong to have intimate relations outside of marriage and now it is acceptable, just as it used to be wrong to swear but it is now commonplace, providing reasons for children to pretend as if they owe adults no level of respect during conversations has become commonplace. We all owe each other a level of respect. Adults show children respect by listening, by being interested in and empathetic with what the child has to say, by treating each child as though he or she was our own. Among the ways children have always shown respect for adults is the way in which they adressed us. Just because society has become too lazy to encourage this does not make it wrong. On the other hand, I agree with your point to FOG. As parents, we all should have the right to raise our children as we see best. In that regard, FOG is right. However, when a parent is faced with teaching their children to use a title to show respect, or to abide by the wishes of the person to be adressed, the better lesson, I think, is to instruct the child to do as the other adult wishes. Mark

Eamonn, I also agree. You should do everything you can to aid the program. I applaud you for stepping in as a concerned dad. I have two additional sugesstions. 1) In your dual role as both a parent of a Scout, and as a District volunteer, I think you have a unique opportunity and perhaps a responsiblity to begin recruiting additional or new adult leadership for this crew. As much energy should go into that as the energy you put into covering for the leader that is not carrying his load. 2)If this leader were with another Crew (not associated with your son), and you came to know about the situation, would you not react as a district volunteer? I'm guessing you would. I have found that some of the toughest calls I must make in Scouting are the calls concerning my sons. I am always concerned that I tread carefully. But if you would act as a District Commisioner and do something for another Crew, I think you should be doing something officially about this Crew. Mark

Neil, Based on having been in a similiar circumstance with our Troop to what you say was Pack A's demise, I agree with you. As delicately as I can put this, over the period of two or three years our program went from being average or maybe a little below average to being the undisputed best in our area (sorry that sounds so conceited, but it really is true). Other Troops in the area that were used to drawing 3 - 10 boys a year started losing crossovers. One Troop in particular went from 10 to 4 to zero boys crossing to their Troop, and we know all the boys who normally would have crossed to their Troop crossed to ours. One Troop in particular decided that they needed to combat the loss of boys crossing, and with the help of a very unScoutlike new Committee Chair, proceeded to do a number of things to rip our Troop and make theirs look better. Not much in the way of a better program (then), but things like "it'll only take your son 4 months to make 1st class and 3 years to make Eagle", and other such comments. The CC specifically called our SM a child abuser. It was ugly. I want to be fair: Since that CC has left Scouting, their Troop has stopped using such tactics, and their program has improved greatly. But the two years during his "reign of terror" were hard on us, and it's been hard to recover. My point is, it's not jus the program that determines a unit's success or failure, as measured by enrollment. Many other things factor in, and not all of them are under the control of the unit. In Future's scenerio, making an agreement that was Scoutlike at the time backfired when someone exploited it. My hope is that those boys who have lost the opportunity to be involved with a quality program find a way to get into a better one, somehow. Mark

OT, Dave expressed a sentiment much better than I did. I am pleased and proud that you have mobilized your passion for the process. I'm pretty certain you're working from the other side of the aisle than would I, but your doing something. To use a phrase I have come to hate, "you go, girl!" As to whom I think has employed you, I'm guessing Kerry. Any of them but Sharpton and Kucininch would be fine with me, though (as if my approval should matter to you). Sharpton has shown himself to be a bigger racist than any white person I have ever encountered without a hood. And I know Kucinich personally. He's a perfect politician. Somehow, no matter what crusade he takes up, he comes up smelling like a rose. He almost always fights for the underdog. Nothing wrong in that, except it has always appeared to me like he picks his fights with an eye toward winning if he can, which he rarely does, or making sure he can claim the big opressive (fill in the blank - utility company, bank, hospital, railroad...) can just have its way with his poor little folk. He's often on the right side of the issues, but I just get this feeling it's never for the right reason. Look forward to hearing more from you! Mark

Adrianvs, Sorry if I've offended you. I hope that further explaination will put me in your good graces. In our Troop, all boys adress all adults "Mr. / Mrs. ...". It's been like this since far longer than I have been with the Troop, and although I agree with it, even if I didn't I would never act to change it. It's just not my place. Therefore, my hope is that Eagle Scouts see this as just one more perk (a small, admittedly) for achieving their goal. the reality is that I am not an Eagle Scout, so at least in terms of Scouting, Eagles deserve more resect than do I. I've never looked at this practice a "the man keepin' the little guy down". We use titles to help teach respect. I invite those who have earned my respect by earning Eagle Scout to address me by my first name. But I will admit, your interpretation of what I do has made me think it through a little more carefully than I might have before. And I'll stick with it, I think. Mark

OGE, Obviously she's working for a "D". Not only because she's a genuine, committed college student (they're always "D"s until the realize the realities of the world!), but it's Iowa. No need for an "R" to be there. Now if on of the "D"s is more appealing to someone in OTs class than another, I can't discern it. I have noticed you've been a little quietter on the board than in the past. I've actually attributted it to one of your star protegeges being away. Mark

I believe that one can never go wrong taking the more formal route and waiting to be invited to change. In other words, I teach my sons, and the Scouts in our troop that Mr. or Mrs. is appropriate until invited by that person to call him something different. I have metioned this before, but I have a tradition where I invite any boy who completes his Eagle BOR to call me Mark. Makes no difference what the age, they've earned enough respect from me to call me by my first name. It's a big kick for these guys to do so, and they make a big deal out of doing it in front of their non Eagle buddies. Mark

Outdoor, It has been kind of quiet without you. Any chance you want to let us know for whom you are working? Are you learning much? I'd be very curious to hear your impressions of the process now that you've been exposed to it so intensely. Can't wait to hear more from you. Mark

While watching the Today Show yesterday (did that make sense?), a professor from Johns Hopkins University was trying to make the point that it is far more likely to die from choking than Mad Cow disease, even if the desease became widespread. When pressed for what precautions should be taken, after trying to say none are needed, he finally said that if you feel the need to take any precautions, you should cut back somewhat on hot dog and suasage consumption. Knowing that many of these products are somewhat indiscrimanate as to what they toss in the recipe, I can understand that. But this guy was SO, SO adamant that the danger is practically nothing, I believe him. The problem you have, Achilleez, I think, is that the potential harm to the US economy if a panic breaks out would be devastating. I'm sure that there will be some folks that suffer the consequences of descisions designed to keep panic from developing, and I'm sorry for you and others in your situation. Mark

Dave, Although I am not an Eagle Scout, you expressed my sentiments exactly. FS sounds a lot like the young men with whom I have been fortunate enough to be associated that have made Eagle. FloridaScout! Congratulations on your achievement! you have my very sincere respect and admiration. It sounds like many of us use the phrase in Eagle CoHs that point out a new Eagle is a "marked man". I've heard this nine times now, and every time a chill goes through me when I think about the accuracy of that line. Those of us who know what being an Eagle means will always hold you to a higher standard. And even those who don't know the significance of the award should always be able to tell there is something special about you. I'm betting you live up to these expectations well. Good luck in all you do, though I don't think you'll need much luck. Mark

Is everyone forgetting the most important reason to become a registered committee member? Boards of Review? OK, maybe this is only important to the guy who has to find committee members to serve when the need arises, but it is important! Much the same as I believe in both Creation and Evolution at the same time (would take too long to explain), I believe just about everyone is right here. for the most part, it isn't necesary to have a specific adult register. But it sure would be valuable, for a number of reasons. And from the perspective of an Advancement Chair, not the least of which are BORs. Mark

I hesitated telling this story in my first post, because it sends the opposite message. But it was very funny, and I can't resist sharing it here. As I said, we don't have much of a problem with bad language in our Troop. We're not perfect, but it is unusual to hear one of the boys let one slip. Our Venture Patrol was at Tinnerman Canoe Base in Canada a few years ago. Their program has each of the crew rotating responsiblities among the boys. One day, a VERY quiet boy in our Troop was the Crew Leader. Now this guy is painfully quiet. Some of the most excrutiating Merit Badge sessions I have ever had were with this kid. He just doesn't like to talk. After their day on the river, the bunch of them sat around talking and stuff. It came time to start diner, but the cook didn't seem to get the hint from the rest of the guys that he should get up and start rattling pans. Very casually, each of the boys tried to remind him it was getting time for dinner, and he better start cooking. the guy just didn't move. The day's Crew Leader did practically nothing, in that he just doesn't like to talk. After about an hour, I gues the Crew Leader lost it. He got up off his rock, walked over to the cook, and yelled, almost loud enough to be heard in Ohio, "Get the f$ off you a&& and cook something, damn it!" As I understand it, everyone almost fell over in shock, then laughter. But it had the desired effect. Dinner was ready in 25 minutes. And no one seems to question this kid anymore. I wasn't there, but my older son was. This story gets told around campfires more than any other story in the Troop. Mark

I truly get the most enjoyment from being with either or both of my two sons. Being with my wife is almost as good. If spending time with my boys were rated 1,000, spending time with my wife would be 998. Playing golf would rate 991. If I could choose a hobby, it would be woodworking. However, it is unbelievable how little talent one can have for something they would love to do. I've tried simple projects, and have never been pleased with the results. I guess I'll have to leave that one to you guys who do have that kind of talent. I'll go play golf. Mark

DS, I've never read this category until a comment elsewhere had me searching for this to find out what was up. I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear it, both for you personally, and for what I think it means for and about Scouting. I wish you and your wife well. Have you called G.E. in GWRC? When I mentioned to him back in the fall that I speak with you online, he seemed to hold you in high regard (that sounds like a theme). I don't know that there are any positions open, but I'd bet if he knows of one coming up in our Council, he'd jump on the oppurtunity to work with you again (that's my editorial comment, not something I heard directly from him). Good luck. I do agree with FOG. You might want to consider a civilian job and do your Scouting from our side of the counter. It is entirely possible you might be able to be more effective that way than as a professional. Good luck! Mark

Hunt, "That Sucks!" has been creeping into the language of boys in our Troop, and into my home, for a few months now. It used to be I heard it a few times a month, and usually gave the offender a look, but didn't do anything more. Recently, I have been on a mission to eliminate it. I have asked anyone who uses the the phrase to substitute "That vaccuums!". seems when they try to do that, it doesn't seem as sexy to them and eventually they stop using the phrase. It's been a slow process, but progress is being made. My next target is "Yo! Dude!" As to misspellings and typos, I want to agree with FOG, but I think reality often finds people typing something very quickly, like kids do when they IM, and hitting "post" without proofreading. I wish people took more care, but I think in this setting, it is unlikely. I attempt to proofread my posts before hitting submit. I catch a lot of errors. But I generally don't make the effort to look up a word if I am unsure of the spelling. I make plenty of errors myself, so being hyper - critical of others' mistakes is something I don't think I can be. Mark

Our unit has shown decline in numbers in the last two years. One jolt had to do with adults not playing together nicely, but we've had a general decline in addition to that. I'd like to hear how FOG handled the situation with the Scout who quit for the Drama Club. I'd also like to hear from others. We have always made anyone who was quitting in order to participate in something else know that WE didn't view their situation as all or nothing. In other words, we are very open to allowing boys to be almost completely inactive during their sport's in season, and then get more active when they are done. They know it will likely have an effect on their advancement, especially if they don't work on anything while they are inactive. But we always try to make them feel as though they don't have to quit. Is that how anyone else handles things? FOG, where are you from? You are the first person who mentioned LaCrosse as a sport that competes with Scouting. There aren't too many areas of the country where it is a significant sport. It's just becoming popular in Ohio. both my sons play. Great game. Mark

I watched the first time they tried to load the 'burban with his pack. They were leaving for the A.T. They had shakedown hikes before, but he always seemed to ride with another adult, so the pack had never seen The SM's vehicle before it was packed the night before they left. It was too tall. I said that was silly, a Suburban has almost as much headroom as the cathedral ceiling in my house. I took the pack, tried to put it in my Suburban (I've down sized to a Tahoe now, but regret it every day). Damn if it wasn't too tall. We tried every way all of us could think of to fit it in: Slightly slanted, laying all of them stacked on their backs, side by side in two layers, nothing worked. They ended up laying it across the boys laps when they left, but by the first stop, the guys had already determined that it was time to either ger my son to practice his lashing, or pick up his pack at the gas station they were at on the ride back home. Now the Troop "recomended Christmas gifts" lists requests that no one buy this model. As we are preparing for our company Christmas party, I'd like to make sure I say Merry Christmas to everyone on this forum. And I also hope that all who celebrate Hanukah enjoy their Holiday as well. Mark