Mike Long

It might be un-Scout like but I would just love to bring down the ACLU. After all that they have done to so many innocent people how can America not see that they have become a tool of a malicious minority acting to further their own political interests at the expense of everyones freedom.

Bob, campfires, firebuilding and cooking over fires are all important parts of a well-rounded Scout program and should never be removed. We just need to teach the boys to understand when fires are and are not appropreate (sp?.) Campfire knowledge is very necessary if at least as a survival skill. I personally prefer to cook on campfire coals rather than my stove. (ash adds a certain zest to scrambled eggs in the morning.) LNT does not impose harsh rules of conduct it simply asks you to think about your impacts more than we normally do and restrict your wear and tear to areas and items that can handle the wear and tear a little better. Like Eisely we don't make a big dael out of LNT either, it's just the way we do things. Wilderness areas in the southeast don't have as strict of guidelines as areas out west, but just you wait, they are coming. Not to be nasty but get with the program folks or eventually you will be forced to.(This message has been edited by Mike Long)

You might also want to check out camps in Georgia. We are from north Florida and we have attended Camp Rainey Mountain in Dillard Ga. Located in the corner of Ga where SC and Tenn. come together. Our boys just loved the place. I particularly like this camp due to the fact that they gave the boys "camp work" to earn their merit badges. Our local camp has a reputation of being a "No-Work" camp. Rainey has a COPE course, mountain biking, hiking and whitewater rafting as do most of the camps in the region. Everyone does indeed stay busy. If you go here definately take the troop to eat at the Dillard House, that alone is worth the drive. (All you can eat famiy style, never ate better!) We also attended Camp Thunder just south and east of Macon Ga. That camp was also a big hit but I did not personally go and can't remember much about it. (great recommendation huh?) Something you need to understand is that many troops in Florida do this and as such theses northern camps fill up frighteningly fast. I hope you can get in this year because we make our reservations in August.

The Committee Chairman is not the "Boss" and it is not his troop. It is the Boys Troop and the Parents Troop. All you have to do is outvote him. If he refuses to follow the decision of the majority then he needs to step down. At this point someone needs to have a nice long talk and explain to him that there is a problem. Perhaps that might just do the trick, if not, well then it becomes sticky and you may need to have him removed from the position if progress can not be reached. Has he taken Scoutmaster fundamentals training? If not, the committee needs to ask him to do so. Training classes generally do a good job of affecting such narrow conceptions. As I understand it, the program is the domain of the Patrol Leaders Council and the Scoutmaster. The Committee only reviews, approves it and supplies background support (KEY WORD "BACKGROUND!) If your Committee Chairman is in control of the program something is very wrong.

Program, Program, Program. The only thing that keeps older kids interested is a challenging and exciting program. If your older kids just do the same thing that the younger kids do and the only difference is what you call it they will leave because the program stinks. We do not have a Venture Crew in our troop but we do have a high adventure program. Basically our program centers on two week long trips a year. The first is seven days and six nights backpacking in the mountains. (A big deal to kids from Florida.) The other is a week long canoe trip. We are looking at adding a third winter trip, but plans have not been finalized (don't know if we can get enough adults.) Your trips can not be easy, they need to be designed so that the trip itself tests all of the Scouts abilities. If the trip is something that any Scout can do it removes the "specialness" of it. These guys want to do what the little guys can't plain and simple. The big caution is that you don't plan an impossible trip and crush the kids and yourself. I have to say in our troop (19 kids) we really don't have a problem keeping the older kids interested and our ages range from 12 to 17 with the vast majority being 16 (5 of them) and 2-17 year olds. I do have to add that our older guys pick and choose what trips they do go on very carefully but none just blow off scouts. They understand that if they are not active in working with the younger Scouts and dislaying leadership and a good example they don't get to go on the high adventure trips.

You are correct a Scoutmaster is not part of the board of review and has no say in the actual decision making process. I do not attend boards except to introduce the candidate.

Here in northeast Florida our council has a great relationship with the United Way. When the funding issue reared its ugly head our United Way chapter flatly stated that they had no intentions of "removing" themselves from Scouting. So, lucky for us, we just go our merry way providing the time tested and proven program of Scouting. Scouters need to be aware that the decision to fund or not fund is decided by local chapters not some national United Way directive. Last I heard there was only 17 chapters that had distanced themselves from Scouting. So before you pull your donation, check it out. I personally never liked funneling my donations through a third party and quit doing it years ago but I don't have a problem giving to our local United Way.

Get ready for a debate on this one. First off "Adult supervision is recommended when using liquid fuel or propane stoves and lanterns" at no point does the guide to safe scouting state that boys can't use liquid fueled stoves and lanterns. You only need to have knowledgable adult supervision. I strongly suggest that you have a meeting with all of the adults active in you outdoor events and have a clinic on the care and feeding of all of your fueled camp gear (liquid and otherwise.) Please note these suggestions are from 16 years of long distance hiking experiences in low and high elevations. But are still opinions and should be treated as such. Here we go..... Propane- The single worst fuel for a backpacking stove due to weight, bulk and performance. However it is the cheapest and is easily available. Freezing is a issue in cold conditions. Canisters can be refilled but done improperly the results are often FATAL. NOT RECOMMENDED. The end result is that we create more garbage you have to carry out and the empties end up in the landfill. (Can you tell I hate propane for backpacking?) Butane & mixed gas canister- Less bulky than propane and gives superior performance (even over some liquid fuel designs.) Savy marketing has produced backpacking lanterns that can be used with canisters that are the same size as the stoves. Liquid fuels do not enjoy this versatility. Availability of fuel canisters is getting better but still not as good as propane and liquid fuel. The canisters are not refillable so once again you are producing more garbage to pack out. The upside to the garbage issue is that the canisters weigh a mere fraction of propane canisters. The strong suite of butane is that for the about the same price as a really nice liquid fuel stove (around $60-80) you can get a butane stove AND lantern that weigh very little. A side note: If you ever plan to hike in Europe you better get a canister stove because white gas is next to impossible to find and you need to use dry cleaning fluid in your liquid fuel stove (also hard to find.) Liquid Fuel-Stoves cost more than the other two options but there is a wider range of designs. Weight ranges from next to nothing to bulky. Performance is excellent throughout the range but freezing is not as big an issue as it is with canister fuel. All use refillable fuel botttles and white gas is cheap and easily available. However lanterns for liquid fuels are MUCH bigger than the ones available for canister fuel and are not suggested for backpacking. Safty is the biggest concern for these stoves and proper education is mandatory. A refillable fuel bottle is a big temptation for mischief in some scouts. Here is some personal experiences with specific models: MSR Whisperlite: Simple design, ultra lightweight, no-frills bombproof design (had mine since '86 and only now used the repair kit '00) but not the most stable on uneven ground. Also able to be repaired in the field. Note-this stove is a blowtorch best suited for boiling water. Simmering and tradition cooking will require paractice and a degree of skill. Those who overcome this swear by these stoves. MSR Dragonfly-Just used one for the first time this weekend. OH MY GOD THIS STOVE ROCKS!! Stable, sturdy, heats like a blowtorch and simmers like a professional range. The only problem is I don't want to spend $100. If I could start all over again I'd get one of these. Peak1 Apex II- Kind of bulky but sturdy and very stable with an adjustable burner for simmering. It too can be repaired easily in the field. Also a very affordable stove (around $49) Mine has seen a lot of abuse but still runs strong (had since '94) Peak1 Feather series-Bulky, heavy but stable. This basically a traditional Coleman camp stove cut in half. I have never seen one last more than 2 years, usually because of poor generator quality. Field repairs are sketchy at best. Costs about the same as the Apex II, I'd go with the Apex II. Optimus Power cook- Nice little stove, stable, light, good design but not as cheap as similar butane stoves with similar features. Hope this helps.

I think that you and I are on the same wavelength. I take Scouting very seriously. I too was shocked at what I was told by reps from our council and national. In my mind, if those are the policies and we are not allowed to attempt to steer boys towards living the Scout Oath and Law then why even bother with "Reviews?" In effect, I was told that if he simply completes the tangible requirements then give him the badge. That is not acceptable to me or the committee and parents in our troop. The subject has been discussed and consensus has been reached. We believe that national is wrong. As far as the statement made earlier of "Who are we to judge" Give me a break! WE are Scoutmasters, Committee Members, Eagle Scouts and concerned Parents and these are our children! We have every right to judge our children's behaviours and attempt to modify negative attributes. No we are not "better" than other people and no we don't have all the answers but it is our job to instill the highest values in our children the best way we know how. It's pretty obvious if a boy doesn't have Scout Spirit. Interesting? No, just sad.

In order to be allowed to use fire a Scout must earn a Fireman Chit and have it on his person. The rules for fire use are printed on the back of the card and are also in the Scout Handbook. The Scout needs to clear a 10 foot circle around the fire. As far as how close a tent can be I'm not sure that there is a solid number one can give you. Sparks can fly a long way and I won't allow the fire ring to be near the tents. My best answer is as far as possible.

When I post on these boards I'm not sure that I come across as I intend to. Oh well, just trying to teach the Scout Oath and Law as best as I know how. Our Troop is sponsored by a United Methodist church so our boys hear about God in a Christian Medodist context. So I guess it could be said that as an outreach of the church we try to support the teachings of the United Methodist Church without condemning the beliefs of others. As to the statement "So, while the BSA is not excluding those who chose to worship other gods, it has not accepted them either. I feel it takes the same position on agnosticism and other religions/practices: it won't exclude them, but they won't fully accept them either." I don't see how one can draw that conclusion. Do you mean to say that the BSA only recognises Christianity, Islam, and Judeaism? If that is true, why does the BSA offer religious awards (or at least allow them to be worn on a BSA uniform) for Baha'i, Hindu, Meher Baba, Buddism, Zoroastrian, and Unitarian (which allows All beliefs in it's membership) It seems to me that recognising a religion with an award indicates acceptance. It is ridiculous to say to a Scout "We don't accept or recognise your non-Christian religion, but here's an award for it." Obviously, by strict definition, Agnosticism is not a religion or a faith and therefore you can't very well create a award for knowledge of and adhereance to Agnosticism. So that kind of puts it in a "special" situation. If that is not what you indended to say please clarify.

I had read on another site (can't remember where_ that National had made available a Eagle certificate without a presidential endorsement. It also stated that this was NOT a political decision by the National Council but a courtesy being provided to parents and Eagles with strong opinions regarding the character of our current President. I would think that if President Clinton was the honorary Chief Scout when the boy earned Eagle either it would be his name or none on the certificate. It seems silly (at best) to attempt to pick and choose who is named as Chief Scout on the certificate. After all it doesn't matter who you want to be named as Chief Scout on it, the reality is that President Clinton IS the Chief Scout until January '01. I think you would have to contact NESA or your local Council office to confirm this. Nesa would be the most direct route though.

Boy Scouts of America 1329 W. Walnut Hill Ln. P.O. Box 152079 Irving, TX. (972) 580-2000 Phone # As found on Yahoo.com yellow pages. Address as found in the publication disclaimer in Scouting Mag. All BSA publications also contain publication information (as required by law) that state the BSA is located in Irvine, Texas. A simple call to directory assistance could net the phone number. As far as who "They" are, one page iii (right before the table of contents) is a letter form the Chief Scout Executive Jere B. Ratcliffe. Let me know if you need any more help, I'm always happy to lend a hand.

I have personally been using LNT methods for many years and have been pushing the principles in our troop from the moment I became involved with it six years ago. Scouting has always taught boys to "Take only pictures leave only footprints" Really LNT is nothing new to Scouting it is just that only recently that the BSA has allied itself with the No Trace organization. http://www.lnt.org/ We just didn't call it Leave No Trace we called it being a good camper. The only big difference is that we now have a solid written set of guidelines. I have to say, ALL troops need to follow LNT ethics. It's just good Scouting to not trash our outdoor classroom and playground. How many of us have gone someplace to camp and when we got there the place was trashed? You know, garbage overflowing the firepit and scattered through the brush, the entire area stripped of deadwood, trees stripped of limbs to above arms length, most of the vegatation trampled, and everything that can't move has So-in-so loves what's-his-face carved in it. Everyone (unless your blessed) should have your hand up now. To top it off (being the fine Scouts you all are) how many of you spent a big chunk of the time allocated to your program with cleaning up the mess? Once again I hope everyone's hand is up. If more people practiced the simple coutrtesy of the LNT ethics, situations such as that will become rare. After several trips that became service projects, some of our boys have become militant in spreading the LNT message. All they want is a nice place to camp. One of our Troop mottos is "We didn't put the mess here, but we won't leave it here." I hope you all take LNT to heart and make it a fundamental principle in your unit.

Hold on folks! All I said is I believe that we should "at least introduce Scouts without faith to the possibilities of faith." at no point did I say that we should introduce scouts to a particular belief system. That is the responsability of the parents. (and I DO believe that it is a obligation of the parents, but my wife and I make the rules in our house not other peoples houses. Still a free country ya know.) All I meant by that was that we pose questions as to what a scout believes in and why. Encourage them to explore why they hold those beliefs and what forms their world view. If they ask me about a certain faith that I have experience with, I tell them what I know and where they can get the rest of the story. I am not a Priest, a Rabbi, or an officer of any faith and don't attempt to be one. However, I have studied most of the major religions of the world and know quite a bit about a few of them. I know enough to give a courious scout a fairly accurate synopisis of what and how they believe, but do not give an endorsement of said faith. All that being said, the original topic of this forum was "Does the BSA exclude Agnostics?" As I understand it Agnostics are not excluded from the BSA and I have never heard of a National policy that requires us to exclude Athiests either. I have heard of several cases where Adult Scouters tried to kick out Athiest Scouts and National defended the Scouters decision in court. To me that indicates that National agrees that Athiests should not be in Scouting or at least that Atheist view are incompatible with Scouting, but I have never seen that in print or come out of a BSA employees mouth officially.

While sitting on my first Eagle Board of Review, the District Advancement Chairman indicated that Atheism was not to be accepted in an Eagle and the candidate would be turned down. I was also told that to be reverent a Scout must, as OldGreyEagle says, believe in the existance of a higher power. Basically to understand that he is part of something greater than what can be seen and measured. It is not necessary to be a "church-goer" or part of an organized religion for a Scout to be reverent. Those who put Athiests and Agnostics in the same catagory don't know what an Agnostic is. The best description of Agnostism is one told to me by a Scouter when I was a boy. "Agnostics believe in God but they don't belive in religion." In my experience, Scouts who claim to be Athiests find out that they are actually Agnostics when they discuss the issue with a Scouter who has knowledge of other faiths. Unless raised in a family that practices a faith, Scouts have no idea what it means to be reverent. The description in the book is a good start but all they get at home are glittering generalities about religions that are almost always false.(IMHO) I believe that it is part of our job as Scouters to at least introduce Scouts without faith to the possibilities of faith. Expelling Athiests from Scouting is not a good way to do this and frankly, is the cowards way out. After all, these are children who only need to be introduced to God. God will take care of the rest.

Our Troop hosts 2 event each year with our Cub Pack. The first is a overnighter with the whole Pack and the Boy Scouts spend the morning teaching Scout Skills to the Cubs. The afternoon is filled with games to test the Scout skills they learned in the morning. The second is designed like a typical Scout Camporee for the Webelos. We divide the Webelos into patrols and have competition games for them. The Cubs actually compete against the Boy Scouts. The games are designed with the Cubs knowledge in mind (ie no advanced pioneering ect.) The Cubs cook their own food (with a Boy Scout Buddy helping) That night we have a campfire and award ceremony where we all do skits and songs. Only the cubs get awards from the competition. The Boy Scouts get recognised as the staff. Our basic theme is a typical Boy Scout Camporee. One thing you should do is get your OA Chapter and all Den Chiefs to staff the event. We did that when I was a boy and it worked out great. Your Cub parents can spend their time coaching and managing their boys and the OA can run the show. The best part of that arrangement is that you don't have parents tring to pull double duty. If you have Troops that are associated with Cub Packs get a Boy Scout Staff member to work closely with the packs as a sort of Troop Guide. The main reason for doing this is that the Cubs get to know a Boy Scout in the Troop that they might crossover to. We have found that if a Cub knows about a Troop and knows Scout in that Troop the less likely that he will drop out after Cubs.

Eisely is absolutely right, you need to inform everyone of your intentions and keep a FIRM date as to your departure from the pack. Our brother Cub Pack is going through this right now. The Cubmaster has two boys, one who has been in our troop for a while and his youngest who will cross over this February. He has been asking for a year for someone to step forward and take the position. No one would do so (out of 74 families!) So he told them that he will step down formally at the Blue and Gold Banquet in February when his youngest crossed over. At every meeting he let them know that they still needed a Cubmaster. As of right now three people said they would share the position (I guess that's better than no one) The only thing that I can add is that our Cubmaster will become the Assistant Scoutmaster in charge of working with new Scouts, and will be our liasion between our Troop and Pack. At least that way he can be available to answer questions and to help out the new Cubmaster with the transition (at least until they get a handle on their new job) The added bonus is that the new Scouts have an Adult that they feel comfortable with. Perhaps you could fill a similar function in your son's Troop. The hardest part of Scouting is moving on, go enjoy your boys time as Boy Scouts; their time will not come again, don't get cheated out of it.

Scouts have ALWAYS been present at political rallies. Do a little research and you will find it is true. This is not new to this election folks. Most time Scouts appear it is because the candidate or its party asked the local council to provide scouts for the occasion for window dressing, just like kissing babies, shaking hands and improperly displaying the US Flag (thay all do that one) This has more to do with the candidates support of Scouting than Scoutings support of the candidate. I agree that Scouting needs to be politically neutral and to the point, I will not discuss politics with the boys. I tell them to read what each candidate has to say and read the opinions of those who don't like either one and honestly evaluate what each has to say. Then ask themselves who most closely supports your beliefs. I do believe that it is important that Scout leaders make it obvious that they do vote and that the boys know that we participate in our nations government activly. As far as I am aware, National stays politically neutral by allowing Scouts to attend any "legitimate" (ie. those that their beliefs do not conflict with the Scout Oath and Law)political rally in uniform and because I see Scouts everywhere at rallies I don't have a problem with it. What our presence really shows is that we are training young men to care about their country enough to get involved with the selection of its officers no matter what party they sympathise with. Isn't citizenship and patriotism a fundamental part of our federal charter? It is.

No kidding! Our uniforms need to be Practical for the outdoor program. I would love to have uniforms that we could wear while backpacking, canoeing, ect. As it stands, our boys don't wear the uniform in the field because they all saved their money and bought "real" technical clothing. We even had cool-max t-shirts printed as a class "B" uniform. Why don't we start a petition and ask national to revise the uniforms AND look into the cost issue?

Oh I definately agree, just letting you guys know of another alternative. BTW- Some folks get blisters from sweaty feet. Another solution is to spray your feet with anti-persperant. It does help, I have tried it. (well it helped me anyway) Vaseline works better (for me) to ease chafing. Never used it for blister prevention.

Most scouts don't know what a blister feels like when it is forming. So a lot of us ended up with blisters before we knew what happened. Moleskin and molefoam work reasonably well to treat blisters as long as they are used as intended. But most scouts simply cover the blister with moleskin, rendering moleskin useless and the blister gets worse. What I use and swear by is called Second Skin. Second Skin blister and burn dressing can be used directly over the blister. What it is is a jelly like substance that is very soft and slippery. This stuff works wonders! The big thing to remember is that you MUST tape it on all sides to get it to stay in place. If you don't it will literally squirt out of place. Versions are made by Johnson and Johnson, and Spenco. I have found it at Wal-Mart and Walgreens.

Many companies sell pack covers because backpacks are not waterproof. My experience is that I have owned several and none has kept my gear dry. My solution? Wrap everything in plastic. I put a trash compactor bag (MUCH stronger than garbage bags) inside the main compartment of my pack as a liner. Everthing than goes in the main compartment is also wrapped individually in plastic or water proof/resistant stuff sacks. I then tie the compactor bag shut with a twist tie and tuck the excess plastic away so that the opening is pointed down. I also line the stuff sack of my sleeping bag with a compactor bag. Stuff in the sleeping bag, tie the compactor bag and cinch everything shut. When I'm not hiking I use a garbage bag as a pack cover. I tell my scouts that they should be able to drop their packs in a river and nothing important get wet. Last March in the Smokies we had that happen during a stream crossing. Using these methods the scout had nothing get wet except himself (and that was easily taken care of.) Alway bring an assortment of extra bags(ziplock, garbage, and compactor) Be Prepared, ya know.

Are you using the pulldown menu at the top and right of the green bar? You need to use it to display the topics. That one got me at first too.

You mean like an intarsa pattern? Check this out. http://www.sawbird.com/eagle.htm Or do you mean traditional woodcarving http://www.carvingpatterns.com/ Something my troop did when I was a Scout is that we got an opaque projector (similar to an overhead projector) and transfered the BSA logo onto a piece of plywood, traced it, cut it to shape and painted it. It looked pretty cool at Courts of Honor. Hope this helps.