Mike Long

BSA166 in North Florida this "fast track" mentality is the norm. I DESPISE IT. I have scouts that joined in late February and finally earned Tenderfoot by summer camp. At summer camp they attended a "Buckskin" program designed to sign off all the requierments up to First Class. Then they come home and expect(as do their parents) to have the board of reviews for Second Class and First Class on the same night. I was taught that First Class meant that one was an accomplished scout. He knew the skills not only be book learning but by experience using them in the field and in everyday life. Not only that he has started to assume leadership in the troop. I do not see how this ideal is served by cramming boys through a one week class and dumping them back to their home troops with a tenuous grasp of the skills. One of the requirements of our high adventure program is First Class rank. Do you honesty believe that a First class scout who has only been a scout for six months is truly ready for high adventure? At most that scout has a summer camp and six weekend trips under his belt. In my experience that is not enough experience to attend any of our high adventure trips. Yet the scout will expect to go because he earned First Class. I do not believe any of us should add requirements or attempt to make the present requirements harder. They are sufficient as they are. I do think that we as Scouters need to be sure that if a requirement is signed off then it has been properly learned. How exactly to do this would be to structure your program in such a way that these skills are in constant use. (At least that is ideal way) The other way I use is good ole' Be Prepared. Our Scouts are all told that on a board of review the board can ask a scout to demonstrate any or all (or none) of the requirements for that rank or any previous ranks that they have earned. So it is the Scouts responsability to be sure that he is prepared in case the board does decide to ask about all of them. Of course that never happens but the desired result getting the boys to KNOW the skills is being achieved. The boys also take pride in being well versed in Scoutcraft. Fast track is not about making the program better it is about numbers and increasing the BSA's market share. Everyone I talk to that quit scout quit because thier troop was "boring". Never have I spoken to anyone who quit because they didn't advance to first class. I do not see the retention problem as being one of getting scouts to earn ranks (although it helps.) I see the real underlying problem being that troop leaders need more help in structuring a program that their boys don't want to leave. Build better troops and the boys will stay.

I would like to make one addendum to my post. I do feel that it is completely inappropiate for a Scouter to color a Scout's preceptions negativly of another Scouter. "A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout." -BP. We may not agree with our brothers actions, views or lifestyle but we love them just the same. If the issue is truly a major concern then it should be addressed between adults and never with children, but I think we are all aware of that point.

If the rules and policies of the BSA does not address a particular moral issue I deferr to the rules and policies of the Chartering Organization. When I was a Scout my troop was chartered to a U.S. Navy Base. If BSA didn't have a policy we defaulted to the code of military conduct (which covered both active duty personell and their dependents) Now the troop I am now involved with is chartered to a Methodist Church and the same things applies. If the BSA doesn't have a policy then we default to Church doctrine. (although I put more weight on the Church's wishes than the BSA's.) For those of you who don't have a chartering organization that has clearly defined what is considered right and wrong you need to get with your Charter Rep. and discuss the issues that concern both of you. If necessary then write up a set of bylaws that you can both agree to and abide by. As for the initial question I guess I'll be the fist to go in harms way with a solid answer. In my opinion. (for what it is worth.) No it is not OK. Every single thing we do and say (and especially when the two don't jive.) teaches these kids a lesson about how we should act. The person you mentioned is teaching through his example that is is OK to shack up, sex outside of marrage is acceptable and the marrage itself is not necessary for a positive and healthy relationship between a man and a woman. Really folks, kids today have fighteningly mature preceptions. Do you honestly think they will believe that that couple are just roommates, is rent really high in your area? Last I heard morality is not a creature of convience but our society is. Yet this is a free country and it is not illegal to live with your boyfriend or girlfriend. My opinion only matters in my home and when I go to vote so I will have to say that my answer to that Scout would be exactly the same as jmcquillan's last sentance, discuss it with Mom, Dad and (hopefully) your priest.

Glad to help. Y'all might want to check out www.thebackpacker.com There are a large amount of folks there that have online trip reports that can be of HUGE help to any troop interested in good locations for high adventure trips. Go to the "trail talk" section many folks post trip reports as they happen. If you don't see much then click on the "trail talk today" link. When you get that page down on the lower left hand side is a link to "Phil's photo page of trail talk regulars" on that page there are links to many of the users personal sites and most of them contain great info. I know it sound convoluted but it's worth an afternoon or two if for nothing else than looking for cool outdoors photos. I personally love to read well done trip reports. Kinda makes me feel like I'm there.

That eisely, he's quick! Good one.

I personally have not hiked Isle Royale but I plan to in the next year or so. I did find a site of a fellow who has hiked it a few times and offers to answer questions others might have. His online trip report journal can be found at: http://showcase.netins.net/web/ladagephoto/scrapindex.html Hope this helps.

JM you kill me! (err.....make that laugh real hard.) We wouldn't be able to use the name PETA though, copyright violation. PETA just got finished sueing PETA.com out of existence (A parody site for People Eating Tasty Animals pretty funny) OldGreyEagle I was hoping to be there but instead I'll be at work rolling out a major revision to a web site. If not for that I'd hop in the car and blaze up there. (Of course I'd be doing the speed limit...) Hey, maybe something will change. (This message has been edited by Mike Long)

Rooster, what you describe is actually a brainwashing technique used by cults and other lunatic fringe groups to gain and retain members. The term used by law enforcement (FBI) and physcologist to describe that technique is "Love Bombing." Hey I love the idea of a fish fry! I wonder how feasable it would be to hold a Scouter.com forum user fish fry? Travel would be a beast though.

You guys need to understand that we are not dealing with reasonable people here that are trying to understand us and work with us to come to an equitable solution to a percieved problem. We are dealing with narrow minded, narrow viewed people who spew dogma to "prove" their point. They pick an aspect of the program and harp on it without even bothering to look at the totality of our program. These people aren't even aware of the huge amount of public service we perform or the scope of the education we provide to our boys. The facts do not matter to these people and any facts that they use to "prove" their point are almost ALWAYS taken completely out of context. Let me prove my point. They don't like fishing and feel that it is cruel. OK, fine. Yes it is true that in order to earn fishing merit badge you must kill one fish. They then declare that Fish and Wildlife Management is also a cruel award. This begs the question of did they even read the requirements? If if they read them did they understand them? There is only one requirement for F&WM where you would need to kill anything (7c Examine the stomach contents of three species of fish and record the findings.) and it is an optional requirement. They go on (further exposing their ignorance, arrogance, lack of attention to facts: pick your favorite description) by suggesting that we create "new" badges for hiking, nature study, birdwatching ect. Oh yes, we should also do community service in the form of environmental work. A Scout as we all know (because we spent a few hours reading the advancement requirements) can achieve his Eagle without harming a single living thing if he so chooses and is required to perform more community service than any other youth organization that I am aware of. OldGreyEagle you are exactly right, National should do a series of commercials documenting all of the hard work and strong character of our boys. We can not ignore the lunatic fringe. We must know the facts and be prepared to present them in a peaceful, positive and respectful manner. As long as we can prove our point (and you all know we can) we will expose the lunatics as just that, people with no understanding of reality. Just expect them to get very nasty because when they can not prove their point they ALWAYS resort to slander.

Wait up! I'll bring the worms.

OK Paul, I did some digging and here is what I found. These guys have a very professional site and have an inventory of used and new vans including full size models. They also have an excellent delivery system. Either they will send a technician to DRIVE the van to you or they will pay to get you to Minnesota to drive the van home yourself. http://www.rollxvans.com/ These appears to be more of a community than just a commercial site. They do have classified ads of vans for sale and nice selection of links that might be of help to you. They also list locations of dealerships looks like the closest to you is in Sheridan, CO. http://www.accessiblevans.com/ These guys have a listing for a used 4X4 van. http://www.tristatemobility.com/Products/Vehicle_Listings/vehicle_listings.html This looks like a good resource site with lots of links. It is a Canada based site but it does contain information that would be helpful to those of us "South of the Border." http://www.enablelink.org/ All I did was go to allthesites.com and searched for wheelchar accessible vans. There were a lot more sites listed but these looked to be the most helpful. Oh yeah, always dream big! Good luck.

Their server is probably down for maintenance. Very few noncommercial websites pay for guaranteed 24-7 access for thier users. If they did, they would not be able to operate for very long. Usually when you see a "Cannot find server or DNS Error" message it just means that the server is down for whatever reason. Don't worry about it, servers are down more often that you would think. Just try back later.

Mark Morford must live in a very sad, ugly and bitter little world. His glass isn't just half empty, it's shattered beyond recognition. Over here, the sun is out, the birds are singing, my family and friends are healthy and my wife loves me. I feel bad for him.

WHAT?? GIRLSCOUT-ISH!!!!! Our Troop always ends each meeting by "circling up" We all (scouts, parents and visitors) stand in a circle and hold hands with out arms crossed (right over left.) When in the circle it is as if the Scout sign is up and only the Scoutmaster is permitted to speak. At that point I deliver my Scoutmaster's minute for the week. When I am done I recognise all visitors and any Scout who has earned an award that week. The Chaplain's aide then performs a short prayer and we close out the meeting by repeating the Scout benediction together. "And now, may the great Scoutmaster of all good Scouts, be with us and guide us until we meet again. Good night Scouts!" (Announcements are delivered before we circle up.) I have never seen a scout meeting where a troop did not circle up at closing, but that might be a regional thing. As far as I am aware (once again I could be wrong) the circle is a tradition that dates back to the first Scout camp at Gilwell. I have never had any complaints from any of the boys. When I was a scout we would refuse to close the meeting if the circle was not closed. I would be shocked if such a vote came up at my own PLC because to me, the circle is a fundamental part of a scout meeting. Not circling up is like baseball without a bat to me! On to the main questions at hand. 1) I would agree to this statement completely. 2) In this example I would agree that this is the worst sort of micro-managing but the PLC should have a certain degree to oversight of how certain tasks are carried out. To cite your examples: the dues collection issue I would leave between the Troop Treasurer and the Scribe. The photos I leave to the historian the format of the newsletter I also leave to him, the CONTENT should reflect the needs of the troop so the PLC comes back into the picture. There are areas that the PLC should be able to question and discuss but yes, the position holder should be free to do his job. I strongly agree that a competent leader who is merely unpopular should be able to continue doing his job until election time and the new SPL appoints a new person to fill that position. (if you check out the Junior Leader Handbook, secondary positions are appointed by the SPL) I would advise against highly detailed (confining) job descriptions for youth positions, they will get enough of that garbage when they get a paying job.

As to finding meaningful roles for Eagles there are plenty. How about Instructor? Junior Assistant Scoutmaster is another good role but I only utilize it with very mature Scouts. If you have a very young Eagle why not use him as a Den Chief? I use my older scouts to carry out the program, the PLC plans it and the older boys under the direction of the SPL make it happen. (at least it happens in theory) Look folks, at this point Eagles are supposed to still be displaying leadership. Just because he made Eagle does not mean that he is "done." Any Eagle that truly understands what it is to be Eagle will tell you that Eagle is a lifelong obligation to live your life by the Scout Oath and Law. Part of that oath is "..to help other people at all times.." to me this also means the Eagle giving to younger scouts all the time, teaching and mentoring that was given to him. YOU ARE NEVER DONE. This needs to be explained to all Eagle candidates before the accept the Eagle. I do.

I debated making that statement but decided to say it anyway. Yes, I do believe that walkie-talkies and cell phones provide a very unwelcome(In my opinion)distraction when on the trail. We usually have at least one adult who packs in his cell phone, but it never leaves the pack and boys are prohibited from bringing them. Walkie-talkies have always degenerated into noisey toys that serve no real purpose other than to annoy. I have tried using them on several trips and that has always been the end result wether they were used by scouts, select scouts or adults. Those of you who made it work, more power to you. My biggest objection to electronic communication and location devices is that they all provide a false sense of security. Some of you might remember from some of my earlier posts that I do a huge amount of backpacking. In my travels I can't begin to tell you how many times I have had to help (drag, carry, triage ect.) people back to the trailhead and then the hospital who foolishly relied on these things to provide "security." I find that it is better to teach the boys to truly look out for one another and to realize the gravity of the situation that they are in. Things can go bad very quickly in the woods. I have a few sayings. On the weather: Listen to the weatherman and expect to complete opposite to happen. On GPS units: The batteries will never fail in your compass and a topo map is lightweight. On Cellphones: Your Mom knows you love her and transmission towers are outlawed in wilderness areas. Leave it at home and study first aid. On Walkie-talkies: If you have to use one to ask your buddy where he is then you DON'T KNOW WHERE HE IS and you are not using the buddy system. This works very well for us but might not work for others, use your discretion.

First off the buddy system is always in use. Two hikers are paired and two canoes are paired when in the water. We keep one adult with the Scouts on point and one with the scouts in the rear as a sweeper We require all Scouts to stop at all trail intersections and water crossings. When canoeing we stop at all intersections and every hour. When we meet back up the last scout to catch up to the group tells the group when they can move on. Heckling, intimidating or otherwise giving the sweeper a hard time about being slow instantly disqualifies the heckler from all high adventure trips for the year and he also becomes the hiking buddy of the sweeper adult. Everyone knows this and there is never a problem. I will NOT use walkie talkies, or cell phones on the trail. I strongly agree with OldGreyEagle's last comment.

The bill is not dead, in fact a version of it just passed the House of Representatives. The article can be found at FoxNews.com. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,25615,00.html

Kdhoogland, ALL situations can be turned around wether for good or evil. All it takes is for concerned, thoughtful people to take ownership of the issue and good things start happening. As to why a trained Scoutmaster doesn't follow the program. In my experience most of the time it is from not understanding the program (usually from a lack of training as an adult or experience with a well run program as a boy) or just old fashioned burn-out. Sometimes good people just get tired and need help getting motivated again. Most of us struggle with burnout at one time or another. Like I said, ALL situations can be turned around.

kdhoogland, in one word, RIGHT! If your boys are not running the program, quite simply, your troop is broken and needs to be fixed. From the confused stares you got I would assume that your adult leadership is unaware of fact the properly running troops are boy run. Sounds like the entire leadership needs to attend a Junior Leader Training session for the boys and Scoutmaster fundamentals for your adults. Check to see if your district or council has one coming up so you can all get trained by people that know and understand how the program should work. I went through what you are trying to do when I got active again a few years back. The adults ran the show and the boys didn't have a clue about leadership (I might add the adults really didn't either) But once everyone got trained and warmed up to the way it should be, things started happening. Just don't expect anything to run smoothly, the boys are SUPPOSED to mess up. That is part of the learning process. When things fall down don't let the adults take over again, work through it with the boys. I have to say, it's exciting to see boys begin to take over their own troop from the adults and run with it. Good Luck.

How have they discouraged patrol competition? Is this just a word of mouth thing or is this being taught to leaders at training events or even worse, in a BSA publication? I really don't want to believe that this is true on a national level, I just thought that my district was full of "Buffet Boys" and lamers. The last few camporees I went to seemed to NOT encourage the patrol method and any activities that should have had a recognized winner did not. For those reasons my Troop is organizing our own Camporee and inviting all like minded troops to attend. Wow, the BSA discouraging the most basic of American virtues, competition. Please tell me that I misunderstood what you posted. Oh Yeah, I completely agree with rlb's description of what a camporee should be. Special themes are nice and all but totally unnecessary. As Scouters we try to put on a good program for our boys and get wrapped up in stuff like themes when what really matters is a well run camporee. The theme is always Scouting and the motto is Be Prepared that should be enough.

Who was that masked Scouter?

Trewm, could you please give us an update on the Scout's progress? It would be a great help to your fellow Scouters if any of us ran into this situation (God Forbid.) Thanks.

Many moons ago our troop had that problem and I wrote up a set of troop bylaws. In effect it said that the Scout Oath and Law was indeed the ruling force in the troop and in the conduct expected of scouts. It also stated that highly disruptive scouts would be sent home IMMEDIATELY from ANY scout event if the behaviour was so bad that the Adult leaders felt that it was necessary. Parents were expected to come and get their boy immediately regardless of where we were or the time of day(or night). However, I would like to go on the record as saying that I hate troop bylaws. Frequently bylaws lock your leadership into rigid modes of operation that I don't think will benefit the boys as well as a flexible approach. Flexability has worked a lot better for me than the rigid approach, but never forget that WRONG IS WRONG and that there ALWAYS needs to be consequences for doing wrong. In my mind we all have a set of bylaws; The Scout Oath and Law says it all. All we need to do is to enforce them. I would also like to take Tiny's suggestion of taking the issue up with the PLC further. The PLC is the FIRST place this should come up. BP didn't call Patrol Leader the "Most difficult job in Scouting" for nothing. Dealing with disruptive Scouts is a part of the job of the PLC. Only when the situation gets away from their abilities should the adults step in. Discuss the Oath and Law and what needs to be done to encourage the boys to live it. Good luck Rob, please keep us posted as to your solution.

Ummmm...yes. Eisely have you met my wife? It sounds like you know her already.