Mike Long

Wow, that's a horrible situation for all involved. Personally, I would not allow the process to continue until the matter has been discussed with the committee, council and district. I do not think we should be soft on substance use and abuse and do believe that IF PROVEN GUILTY he should face the consequences of his actions. Really this is a subject that you truly need to take up with your district and council advancement chair before you or your troop take any action regarding his advancement. Handled poorly this can (and knowing today's society, most likely) have legal repercussions that will affect all involved. You need to take this as a opprotunity to help this boy instead of running him out on a rail. This is after all a kid that is still in "learning mode" and he needs you now more than ever. The Scoutmaster and Committee Chair should call (better yet visit) this boy immediately and let him know that they want to help him in any way they can and if the charges are true there will be consequences BUT they want to help him work through it. Right now he can make a huge bad decision and still not ruin his entire future IF HE LEARNS FROM IT and moves forward in a positive manner. So in my heart and mind the best thing that the troop can do is help him through it. As far as IF he is convicted, once again, I don't think that it means he should be barred from making Eagle. Once (and if) his conviction is final, I think it would be appropriate to give him a plan to redeem himself and to prove that he has overcome his problems in order to achieve Eagle. If his project is not approved yet your committee might consider requiring him to do a project concerning Drug and alcohol abuse as a sort of educational experience/"Scared Straight" tactic. We are in the job of building positive character, nothing builds character like adversity and this fella just feel into a lake of it. But with him being 17, I'm not sure that ther is enough time to do that. Eagle is about being the best you can be, improving yourself and the world around you through your actions, words and example. Give him a chance to do that.(This message has been edited by Mike Long)

Cheap tent stakes? Try some thick welding rod, a vise and a weekend. Bend your own.

Screenprinting easy? That's a relative observation :-). It's as easy as you make it though. I was a commercial printer specializing in photographic reproducion on dark and textured fabrics. That ain't easy. But it IS easy to do DIY troop shirts. I printed some for my troop back in '87 on the kitchen table and they still look pretty good. If you want to take the DIY route most art supply stores, craft and graphics stores sell the necessary equipment. I used to make a sort of hobby of pushing the technology the "wrong" direction. I've even printed shirts with latex house paint. You might want to try DickBlick.com they have a good selection of supplies.

The only thing we require as uniforn in the woods are the t-shirts we had printed for our troop. In case anyone is interested, I was a screen printer for 10 years and have a huge knowledge of printing t-shirts and would be more than happy to answer any questions about the process, what to look out for ect.

Eisely I would agree that scouting as a whole is doing better than most aspects of society. Also, I would agree with the statement: "But on the whole, tacky behavior is less prevalent in scouting than what I have observed in schools and youth sports in particular." I guess that when we do see bad behaviour in Scouting it seems so much more obvious, outrageous and painful to witness. I know that I for one have become desensitized to bad behaviour in society outside of scouting and have almost come to expect it. My biggest personal struggle (as I am sure some of you have noticed) is to not respond in kind. I'm not sure who that reflects worse on, me or society in general. Uncle Bob and Stan, thanks for sharing your experiences of scouting in action, we need to hear more stories like that. It helps to know we are making a difference. (This message has been edited by Mike Long)

OK, LeRoy you have had your fun and it's time to move on. Some of us here actually use, write and impliment web technology everyday in our work. I am one of those people and I am very familiar with RiverportForums and web security in general. What you claim to have happened is not possible due to the structure of the code used in the forum application. Not only that, the app kicks back duplicate instances of the same email address or username. Very childish, very rude and very ignorant of the web.

Thank you for the information.(This message has been edited by Mike Long)

I think it's obvious that we all realize that there is a problem and I even agreed with you in that if chartering organizations can't or won't uphold BSA standards then they probably shouldn't have a charter. Rather than meet on common ground and attempt to move forward together you choose to attempt to browbeat those who respond. Now that its painfully obvious that you are not a regular here, Welcome to the boards. Let's have a polite dialogue. Lose the scarcasm and vitriol.

Camo is fine as long as it is not accepted as part of the uniform. Recently our PLC stated that they wanted to change our Troop t-shirts from red to Camo. I refused for a couple of reasons. First, the committe didn't want a para-military connotation. Second (and probably the only reason to ban camo at a camporee) was that we can see boys in bright red shirts a lot easier than ones in camo. I want to know where our boys are at any time. I think I have good boys but I worry about mischief when I can't see them easily. Troop campouts, no problem, wear it if you like.

With all the hubbub about units loosing sponsors and meeting space I am interested to know how it is affecting everyone. What I would like is for everyone to post here: 1-Your council name and area 2-If you know what kinds of organizations sponsor units in your area 3-How many or how big of a problem is this in your area. 4- feel free to list major issues in your area. I'll start. 1. North Florida Council (self-explanitory) 2. Almost all units are sponsored by churches and civic groups (i.e. Rotary Club) 3. I have not heard of anyone loosing a sponsor or meeting space. Not a problem here.

Legal or Honest? Interesting question. Legal, most likely not depending on the laws of your community. There are still communities that have laws outlawing homosexuality and many more that do not have non-discrimination laws or policies. Please note, a policy is not a law. Policies are guidelines for operation. Disobey a policy and you get fired of repremanded. Disobey a law and you go to jail. Policy = We prefer. Law = We must. Honest, well that's a completely different issue. The BSA does not hide its code of ethics or its standards for membership. As a matter of fact the BSA has shouted both from the mountaintops for 90 years. So how could the BSA be depicted as dishonest? We are very honest in displaying our standards. If there is dishonesty anywhere it would be in a Sponsor obtaining a charter with another organization with long standing policies and laws(the BSA) that the sponsor (Public Schools) either can not legally enforce, or willfully refuses to enforce. It makes one ask did these school boards bother to learn the rules and policies of the BSA? If they were aware of those rules and policies why didn't they then release their charters? I think its honest to assume that by accepting a charter the sponsor agrees to the situlations of the charter. It's just like getting a loan, you want the money?(Troop) Then agree to the terms of the loan.(Charter) Most of these non-discrimination policies were written and adopted well after their charters were secured and it is the responsability of the sponsor to be sure that its policies are compatible AND REMAIN COMPATIBLE with the BSA. The logical extension of this is that it is also the responsablity of the sponsor to sever or adjust it's ties to the BSA (or anyone else) if their policies are at odds. I do have to say that it is unscoutlike to ask anyone to disobey the law. Accept and obey the law or obey and work to change the law. If a BSA charter is in violation of the law then it needs to be removed until the law changes. I don't like it but I don't have to like it. What we have to do is obey the law.

How about making your point without being insulting or derogatory! If you can't make you point AND keep to the conduct required a scout don't post here.

Uncle Bob, I'm with you brother! I have seen what you describe in my area too. The lack of Scout Spirit does exist and is probably the biggest threat to the Scouting movement. Luckily there are still those in our number that understand what Scout Spirit is and do their best to instill it in our Scouts. Keep on keeping on.

I know that now and completely agree with you. Definately a learning experience for me. I no longer assume that all of us can speak quietly in a corner like good Scouts.

Somehow I missed your post. Sorry. http://www.globalserve.net/~codyak/CUBCodyAK.htm If your Troop or Pack doesn't have uniform exchange how about helping this guy?

Eisely, I assume you are referring to my last paragraph. I tried a polite Scoutmaster to Scoutmaster conversation when that situation arose but it deginerated into me being verbally abused in public. The guy didn't want to discuss the situation like two adult Scouters he wanted to act like a bully at the elementray school bike rack after school. Pretty bad situation seeing that he was twice my age at the time. I would have preferred to come to an understanding but at least the situation vividly demonstrated the differences between us. If the situation comes up again I will still try a polite conversation if the situation presents itself. But I preferr to concentrate on a strong program for the boys and let our detractors wither on the vine. P_Swigs, the ones I ran into personally only want their boys to be Eagles no matter what the cost. To them it's just a plus on the boy's future resume.

Interesting. We are exactly the opposite with only one exception.

We ran into a similar situation a few yers back the only difference was that the other troop was pulling kids from our brother pack (we share the same sponsor) Basically if boiled down to the fact that our then Scoutmaster and the Packs then Cubmaster didn't like each other and it became an issue of how much the Cubmaster could hurt our Scoutmaster and hurting our Troop was a by product. What we did was simple we improved our program and made it known to everyone that had hear to hear with and eyes to see it. My PLC was upset that they never had any new Webelos come up for two years and wanted to know why. I told them that they (the Cubs) thought the other troop had more to offer them and if we thought that we were such a good troop we need to prove it. First we assigned two Den Chiefs. I can not stress how important Den Chiefs are. Den Chiefs establish a comfort level with the Cubs. They make friends and become mentors, boys want to be with friends. Den Chiefs also tell the Cubs what their troop is like and what you do in your program. We also set aside two campouts a year that we invite the cubs. The first is in spring where we invite the entire Pack and teach skills in the morning and play fun games in the afternoon. We finish with a campfire ceremony. The second is in the fall and only the Webelos (1 & 2) are invited to that one. In that trip we form the Webelos into patrols and run a true Camporee targeted at their skill level. Please note that by this time your Den Chiefs have been involved for close to a year and have helped develop the skills of these Webelos. Time to let the Webelos strut their stuff. We also worked very hard at improving our own boys leadership skills and developing a tighter boy-lead program. At our Pack/Troop trips the Scouts run EVERYTHING. The Scouters just talk to parents, observe and only jump in to help when the boys ask. Nothing sells the Boy-Lead program like a good example of the Boy-Lead program. If you work hard the Webelos parents will see two such examples. Our program is now published through flyers, the church bulliten board and on our website six months out. We do everything we can to get in the local paper too. I would never confront your detractors just prove you are better Scouts and a better Troop, make your qualities very visible and your fortunes will turn....I promise. We have had between 12 and 18 boys in our troop for 5 years; our efforts are paying off tonight, our PLC is welcoming 17 new Scouts into our Troop of 18. 10 Webelos from our Pack, 4 From THEIR Pack, and three Scouts from THEIR Troop. One last thing, I was present when someone from the other Troop was slandering us. I put up my Scout sign and recited the Oath and Law so all could hear while staring him in the eye. I then said so all could hear "Everything that comes out of my mouth and is displayed by my actions is according to those words." Didn't need to say anything else.

I would like to point out that the boys set the budget for our tents not the adults. As long as the tent works well for your boys the price is right. The boys wanted 12 new tents and asked how much they could spend on them. The committe was about to debate price, I cut the the committe off at the pass and told the Scouts we can spend as much as they can earn. If they choose expensive tents, then they need to work harder and earn more. They then backed off of getting the North Face Roadrunners they wanted at $250 a pop. I do have one other suggestion for getting the money for tents. We had a garage sale at our church. We canvassed the congregation to donate anything they wanted to get rid of, nothing will be refused. The boys asked thier nieghbors and family to donate also. We also called Goodwill to pick up anything not sold on that Satuday at 1pm. We earned $1500 for tents and helped out the needy with everthing we didn't sell.

Please note the line "on the way out.." kinda makes one think of Fashion doesn't it? No matter what anyone says wool works and it works well even wet. PolyPro and all the fancy new synthetics work great too (a little better than wool when wet), it simply comes down to comfort and price. Oh yeah, If you wear wool pants and get to close to a campfire the wool singes instead of melting to your skin like synthetics do. I use both but being a long-distance backpacker I tend to use the synthetics.

Hey, Come On folks! It's a step in the right direction, let's at least give them that. Everyone screws up now and again. It's time to make it right, learn, improve and move forward.

Actually there has been a lot of talk regarding Gays in the Issues & Politics area. How about we keep the discussion in that area and leave this one to program?

I agree. Well Greg, my best suggestion to you is that you do what the folks in the other forum did. Call the BBB and file an internet fraud report. I hate the fact that I am even suggesting that a Scout file fraud charges against another Scout. I need a shower.

In my first post I said the issue rarely comes up-to clarify: it came up once with one Scout and twice with two different parents outside of Scouting. Your replies are pretty much what I have been hearing from everyone I ask. I have only had one Scout bring up the issue and his statement we simply to the effect that he thought that it was horribly unfair that thousands of Scouts are being hurt because of a handful of people disagree. I have to agree with him and personally I don't even see why this is an issue. Please don't misunderstand the statement I just made. I personally disagree with homosexuality and the legitimization of it yet I do have openly homosexual friends. My point is that nowhere at no time has the issue of homosexuality or even the topic of sexuality been a part of the program or discussions at any troop's meetings that I can find. In every single case I find, everyone states that the issue is best left between the Scout, his parents and his religious leader OUTSIDE of Scouting. It just seems ridiculous that we are taking so much heat as an organization for an issue that, in a troop by troop basis, not a single one of us will even address. Anyone else see this? (This message has been edited by Mike Long)

We hear so much about the battle going back and forth with this issue and how much it is hurting people on both sides. Some folks would have the world believe that we actively hunt down homosexuals and that we preach "Nazi-esque" hate propaganda against homosexuals. I have talked to many scouters in my area, all of them at various points of the spectrum on this issue. I can't find one who will admit to even discussing the issue with their Scouts, now or even before this whole issue reared up. How is it that two court cases have divided our great movement so badly? (I can only think of two cases that apply.) All of this over two people? I know what some of you will say and it will be similar to this quote. I'm not sure who said it but goes like this "No American is free unless every last one of us is free." The rest of you will say freedom to associate includes the freedom to not associate. but that is not the question here so please try not to re-argue those points. My question to all of you is this: Do you discuss homosexuality with your boys? How about sexuality in general? If you do discuss it at all what to you say and how do you say it. In my troop the issue rarely comes up but I do make it a point to tell our boys that Scouts don't hate anyone and that we are not better than anyone else. We do however attempt to live our lives by a code that not everyone else agrees with. Rude and disrespectful speech is quickly addressed and corrected (ie. boys calling each other "Gay, Pollack, Flip, ect.) The question of what is right or wrong when it comes to sexuality is something that they need to discuss with their parents and priest. I do have my personal opinion on the matter but I tell Scouts that they should consult their parents and priest first. As to the Gay Scout issue, I tell the Scouts as it is. "The BSA does not believe that openly homosexual people should be scout leaders and some people don't think that the BSA has the right to say that. Because the courts think that we have the right to set membership standards, the people that disagree have decided to do their best to hurt the BSA until the BSA changes it's mind." Accurate discription? Feedback is greatly welcomed.