Mike F

Sounds very interesting! Any other users out there with comments?

Acco's point of "being registered" often being equated to "being active" has caused some scouts/parents to win in appeal, but I think you're on solid ground if indeed the scout has attended absolutely no troop meetings or other activities and in no other way contributed to the troop. I know they don't like troops to impose a participation percentage, but it's hard to claim you're active in your troop and patrol when your participation percentage is zero. (In my old troop we had a 17-yr old Eagle away at college maintaining the troop website and got EPalm credit. I have no problem with that.)

Stand your ground. You're not hurting the young man - you're doing him a favor by stopping this embarrassing charade which is quietly eating as his soul.

Scouter760 brings up an EXCELLENT point worth repeating: "...if they are on track for Arrow of Light, don't sacrifice fun to get more pins. They can wear Arrow of Light on their Boy Scout uniform, but not the super-achiever patch."

I've seen a lot of potential Boy Scouts (and their parents) pass up the opportunity to cross the bridge into Boy Scouts because they were burned out by the extra effort to earn that darned super-achiever patch. It's a fine thing to offer the super-motivated, but please keep it low pressure. It's not worth it if they're burned out and not hungry for more. The boys work plenty hard in school all day. From their point of view, they're interested in 3 things: Fun, Friends, & Adventure. Keep the focus on that and they'll have many more years to enjoy them all (and learn a few other things when they're not looking).

numbers123,

You're in great shape with a lot of great ideas! With most of the activity pin work behind you, the guys don't have that pressure which burns so many out and makes them dread the idea of moving into another 7 years of scouting. Trust me - the best is yet to come! I really liked the early emphasis in your letter about visiting and camping with some Boy Scout troops. Get your guys out there to participate with Boy Scouts having some excellent adventures and they'll all be excited to join as soon as they can.

Enjoy the ride!

Mike R,

A couple more thoughts:

- I agree with comment made by Mafaking. It is an awesome feeling to be pushing off on your own - just your guys and their skills - without a staff member. For one thing, the staff member takes up one of your 9 spots. And he/she changes the dynamics of your crew. If your crew is not up to the challenge, this is a necessary evil, but it sounds like you guys are ready. If you want to hike at Philmont, you must go through BSA. We launched our canoes about 50' from BSA property and were immediately in the exact same program area. (Don't tell my guys, but we won't really be without a safety net -- we rent satellite phones.) As for missing some of the sights without a guide, sure you'll miss some. Think of it as the difference between backpacking across Europe with a friend, versus one of those tour buses. Your outfitter can help plan your route and mark up your maps with sites to see.

- Patches and stuff. The afternoon we got of the water, we drove over and shopped at the BSA trading post. Guys bought their mini paddles and belts. We selected one of the patches for sale, bought a stack, and presented them later. As for the "Triple Crown" patch, many of my crew this summer would be eligible if we used BSA, but they are more interested in the memories which will last forever and satisfaction of knowing they were able to enjoy the best Scouting had to offer in their trekking days of youth. I know NCCO provides a crew photo to treasure and I'll bet they all do.

Mike R,

I took Eagle 90s recommendation on NCCO six years ago and had a great experience, too. I had been through BSA/NT and would have automatically gone through them again, but they were full when we wanted to go, so took the leap with outfitter. On my recommendation, several other troops have used NCCO with same results. My oldest son is going back with a bunch of his college buddies on a NCCO trek this summer as a graduation trip. A little later, I'll be taking two more Scout crews. Sorry I can't help rule one out for you. Others may swear by their favorites, but I'm sold on mine and will be going back as long as the Great Scoutmaster blesses me with the health to dip a paddle!

We do it like Baschram -- if 2 or more are there, they camp and participate as a patrol. If their numbers are really small (or inexperienced), other guys voluntarily lend a hand with some of the heavy lifting of camp setup. I have served in another troop which continuously combined members on campouts and it was the disaster Lisabob described. No patrol spirit or identity. Although not recommended by BSA, we also have 9-10 members in our patrols. It takes a little more coaching to help PLs cope with size, but even in the midst of sports/band/etc seasons, our patrols have sufficient numbers to function as patrols.

We also don't regulate how much they can spend on meals, although we suggest it should be around $10-15. Patrol food money is handled completely within the patrols and not touched by adults.

Are adults really managing tent partners? The only thing we do is remind PLs to make sure the brand new guys have a slightly more experienced buddy for the first couple of campouts. Other than that, the patrols work it out. We don't have troop tents. Most of the guys have their own and they take better care of them. Some tent solo. (With patrol buddies in a tent 4 feet away, nobody loses any sleep over it.) Some pile 3 small guys into a 2-man tent. Many times they'll have a tent or two up, but decide to sleep under the stars. One patrol has started bringing a large family tent for the entire patrol. I've seen meltdowns in this situation before and the PL knows the first outburst of rowdy behavior or extended talking after lights out will be the end of the big tent option. So far, so good. In short, managing tentage for his patrol is part of the PLs job and I recommend letting him do it.

Great ideas!

Instead of cotton balls and vaseline, we partially dip the cotton balls in melted wax. These keep better and aren't as messy as wads of greasy stuff. Also found a saturated cotton ball could be hard to light.

With wax, we keep part of the cotton ball unwaxed. This catches easily with a spark and serves as wick for the mini candle. While we're dipping cotton into wax, we waterproof a few matches and the guys refill their personal fire starter kits.

There's no set size. I'd recommend smaller than the troop flag so it can easily be carried by patrol, transported on campouts, etc.

Staples won't hold up. You can get a grommet tool at hardware shop or have ties sewn into flag. Consider installing eye-bolts on staff which are big enough to attach patrol award ribbons or other cool stuff.

Consider getting some pictures of some real "old school" patrol flags so guys can be inspired. So many patrol flags we see at camporees (district competitions) are nothing more than pillow cases with stuff scrawled on with markers and I believe they accurately reflect the patrol's pride.

Our patrol flags were all made by the guys (maybe with some sewing help) and they're all different. One resourceful patrol welded a staff with cross piece so their flag hangs down. One has signatures of all past and present members on the back.

Get the guys to include their patrol flags in troop formations at beginning and end of troop meetings. Create a "golden spatula/spoon award" for the winner of a cooking competition to hang on their flag until the next competition. Hand out your own ribbons for winning other skill competitions. Before you know it, they'll be hauling them on campouts to designate their patrol camping area.

Beavah,

The troop I serve does a variation of indep patrol camping which some might find appealing.

First off, we have mixed age patrols and we always keep patrols together, so doing one thing with younger guys while older are out of their own for the night is not an option. After crossover every year, we keep campouts fairly simple for a few months to allow plenty of learning time in the patrols. After the guys get the hang of it, we'll throw some zingers at them.

Example: Troop base camp on Fri night. Patrols spread out as local conditions allow. Program during the day. Mid-afternoon the PLs are given instructions to relocate their patrols to new locations. Sometimes this is using map&compass, sometimes they're just given GPS coordinates. They pack up and head out to set up their solo patrol campsite for the evening. The guys love it. After dark, adults and/or SPL usually sneak around to check on things. If conditions are really rough (severe cold, rain, etc.), we might openly visit a campsite for a few minutes. For a different twist, we'll hit them with a surprise relocation after dark. This adds extra adventure and avoids the hassle of hauling food and cooking stuff.

When prospective members and parents visit, we tell them upfront that we train our guys to go out for the night as patrols without adults. If they ask, well explain the build-up process. Occasionally a parent will object to this kind of unsupervised activity. We explain it is being supervised by the Patrol Leader and thats what we train him to do. If they dont like that, we gently suggest this probably isnt the best local troop for their son. (Fortunately there are options and one size does not fit all.)

We just started doing this about 4-5 years ago. The results have been great.

Ed,

It didn't take somebody long to delete your PETA Killer Sea Kitten!

Drop a line to Cooper Wright at CoopWright@aol.com.

His Venture Crew has been updating a thorough Philmont Advisors Guide for years. It will cost you a few dollars, but the advice is excellent!

Other than that, I would recommend spending an extra day or so at altitude before you hit the trail. There is a Boy Scout camping area at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. Take a good day hike in the surrounding mountains. You'll be going downhill to Philmont Base Camp. It makes a difference.

Troop555EagleScout,

Welcome to the virtual campfire!

The answer to your question depends. The Director of BSA High Adventure once told me that to a new Tiger Cub, sitting on a fire truck at the local fire station was high adventure. He meant we should think of high adventure not as something only done by 14-yr old scouts a few times in their youth career and should be emphasising adventure at all levels in scouting.

Tell us more about the intent of your question. Are you looking for participation guidance for a planned trip? Medical questions? Preparation requirements?

You'll get plenty of opinions. That's the joy of this place!

-mike

Whenever local conditions allow, we spread the patrols out to a football field (sometimes further) distance. If they have any "issues", they are reeled in closer on the following campout. I find that's sufficient motivation to keep things under control - the guys love the freedom. BW's right - adults seldom wander over, but the SPL gets in a workout wandering around to keep a loose eye on things.

Note: Patrols need to stay isolated from each other. The only major issue we ever had was when a couple of patrols decided to camp close to each other far away from adults and things escalated in a way they shouldn't have. Now I understand the rationale behind saying a patrol can camp alone. One clear leader and one group of guys under his control.

Buff Skipper,

This is an excellent idea - maybe even better than headaches of Webelos Invite campout!

My first concern would be size. 60-80 Webelos with 15 Boy Scouts running events is going to stretch you guys pretty thin. You'll probably have to call in adults to help keep crowd moving, but that's OK. You might consider opening this up to other troops, too. Then each troop can run a couple events at once and you can rotate them through.

As for the recruiting aspect - of course it's recruiting! With 10 committed incoming before a cool event like this, I'll bet you reach your goal of 15 with no problem, so you don't need to push the hard sell. In fact, there's no way you take in all 30-40 (est.) of the Webelos 2's anyway, so just be really vocal about not just recruiting for your troop - you're recruiting for Boy Scouting. In other words, you want all of those Webelos (and parents) to look forward to crossing over into any of your local troops. In addition to your troop flyer, you should hand out a list of contact information for all the local troops.

You could do individual signups and make follow-up calls, but I dont think youll have to. Include troop meeting information on your flyer and tell all interested to drop by some time to see your troop in action and to discuss possible membership.

This last bit of advice is very important. Although others will disagree, I think you need to decide right now how many new scouts you can effectively handle. Doubling your size in one year with a bunch of inexperienced, excited 11-yr olds is going to be a challenge. If you get more new guys than you can assimilate, your older scouts and the new guys will suffer. I recommend discussing this with your adult leaders and PLC so you get buy-in from everyone. Decide on a limit and let everyone know about it. Consider setting it a tad lower than you think is your real max to allow room for one or two more when they come to you with a "best buddy who just has to be in scouts with me."

Have fun and let us know how it goes!

Eagledad/Barry,

Once again you have nailed it spot on! Have you considered publishing a series of essays?

First of all, I agree with others no scout needs a POR. The troop needs scouts functioning in PORs in order to function. A scout (or his parents) may want a POR so he can complete an advancement requirement, but they have to earn the opportunity.

Our focus is on electing (SPL and PLs) and selecting (all other PORs) the best scouts available for each position. SM consults with the SPL, but the SPL picks his staff. All of our older scouts are expected to hold jobs and most have served in 5-10 positions by the time they turn 18.

Our PLC decided years ago that we dont need Librarian, Historian, Bugler, etc., so we dont have a problem with guys trying to find the easy way out. Only once have I assigned a SM-assigned leadership project, because there are plenty of other real opportunities to lead and grow. In my observation, if a scout isnt getting elected/selected for a POR, its because he hasnt demonstrated to the other guys hes ready for it by being a good Asst PL, Patrol QM, etc., which dont count for advancement, but are excellent growth opportunities. On rare occasion, Ill give the SPL a nudge about considering a scout who is a little shy, but has a good attitude. If after training, monitoring, and coaching a scout doesnt step up to the plate and deliver, its pretty likely hell be passed over when the next term starts. Eventually they all mature and are ready to grow.

We also use a written contract for each POR and these are tailored to require increasing levels of responsibility and leadership as the scouts advance. For instance, a 1st Class Den Chief is responsible for helping out at Den Meetings, planning a few simple activities, and demonstrating some scout skills. To get advancement credit, a Life Scout Den Chief is responsible for planning and running meetings with less assistance from the adult Den Leader. If he doesnt want to work that hard, hes still encouraged to stay with his Den until they cross over into Boy Scouts, but hell need to serve the troop in another way to earn Eagle. Similarly for Instructor, a 1st Class Instructor teaches the things hes told to teach by SPL/ASPL, but a Life Instructor is expected to develop program, find his own resources, and otherwise show significant skill and initiative. On one occasion, the SPL attempted to recruit a scout (who desired a POR for advancement) for one of the more challenging jobs and the scout refused, saying he wanted to do something easier. SPL insisted he needed scout for that particular job and there wasnt an easier one available for him. The scout decided to sit out that term. (Parents wanted me to overrule the SPL and give scout another job. No way.) After cooling his heels in his position as patrol member for 6 months, this scout is back in a leadership position.

In summary, our total focus in area of PORs is in running the troop, not on rank advancement. A majority of the scouts step up and meet our agreed-upon requirements to satisfy rank advancement, too, but the real focus is on running the troop. If a scout doesnt meet the requirements for rank advancement in the first term, we work with him to continue to grow. It takes a lot more work from SM Staff and other senior leaders and some trust from parents that we really do have their sons best interests at heart but the results have been remarkable.

Ed,

It would have been fraud if he falsified dates on his Eagle application so his POR incorrectly appeared to have been completed after he had been awarded Life and the reality (and fraud) came out in discussion during the EBOR. Scout did not do this. The original dates from when he was a 1st Class scout working on Star on the Eagle App are what started the discussion. Rather than assuming fraud on the part of the scout, I'm willing to accept he didn't understand what I agree is very clear wording and/or his adults told him not to worry about it.

Mike

I'm not sure about intentional shifts in age thing, but am happy to say the troop I serve keeps the guys active all the way through high school and has some college age guys joining us on campouts and summer high-adventure. Our incoming SPL is a senior who doesn't need the position for Eagle - he just wants to stay in the game and was elected. On average, the guys older than 15 miss a few more activities due to conflicts than the younger, but they are definitely engaged. They take pride in running the troop. It drives me nuts when I hear SMs comment on their missing high-schoolers that they have done their time, now they're pretty much just working on Eagle.

It is a challenge to keep them engaged, but I think we're doing a few things right.

1. Expectation - we expect them to keep serving.

2. Fun - they like running things and enjoy doing so with their buddies

3. High Adventure - definitely something to look forward to and you must be active to participate

4. Challenges - we're always looking for ways to throw new challenges to the guys that are outside of normal program guides. An example is night orienteering.

5. No First Year Program - new guys are a member of regular mixed-age patrols where they gradually learn most of the skills through use and get signed off as they show their mastery. We do use Instructors to set up special classes, but about half the time that's a review for entire troop before a patrol competition. We try to minimize the "boring" classes.

6. Merit Badge Classes - We have never done MB classes at troop meetings, but the PLC recently decided every boy needs to know about Auto Mechanics, so we had a skilled dad come in for a couple of meetings and teach the class to the older boys while those not yet 1st Class worked in another area to wrap up a few things.

7. Meetings - in general, meetings are mostly about getting ready for the next campout, so we brush up on map/compass before the orienteering campout, canoe terms and safety before canoeing, survival skills before the survival campout, etc.

wb,

I feel your pain - been there.

In my opinion, no matter how much you disagree, it's best not to attempt to undo previous SM's agreements. If scout met the expectations in place at the time, it's going to be a very steep uphill battle to disapprove the work and get him to step up to new standard. And probably not worth the energy and good will you'd expend in the process, but you'll have to judge that for yourself in your situation.

In similar situation, I clenched my teeth, smiled and signed. Then vowed to make sure I never let it happen on my watch.

These kinds of things are part of any transition. Some you can clear up quickly after moving in, but some take longer to come to light. The older scouts and parents will offer the most resistance because you're violating their definition of scouting, but they'll move on and things get easier.

Do what you can to keep the scout engaged in the program so he can continue to grow.

It sounds like you're on the right track and I know how hard it can be. Keep up the great work!

Ed,

I must not have been clear. I don't think he put false info on form and scout didn't attempt to deceive. He listed the position and dates served when he was a First Class scout and didn't understand this only gave him credit for Star advancement. When questioned, the scout confirmed he had served in the position as a First Class scout and had used the same period of service for credit for Life and now Eagle.

I don't know the troop. EBOR Chair was very frustrated that adults in charge had such a poor understanding of the program that they would let this happen, but he didn't want to punish the scout because of the adults. I'm glad I wasn't at the board. Come to think of it, I haven't been asked to serve on any more EBORs since the time I questioned a candidate about why all of his Tenderfoot through First Class requirements had been signed off on the same day by the same person. I was expecting to hear a story about losing his book and getting past things documented - then was shocked to hear a story about how his troop did a First Class Saturday when he was a new scout and they completed everything at once. I knew the scout to be very solid, so didn't make a big deal about it with him, but had a discussion with his SM later about their FCE program which has since been revised.

OneHour,

You'll have to make the decision, but I think you listed the deciding factors at the bottom of your Yes list:

"Preparing the troop for my 3rd son" and "Love the time spent with my sons".

Since we're all volunteers, there's a time to leave and a time to stay and fight it out. If your sons had all moved on and the environment had turned toxic, it might be time to volunteer on the District Committee. Since you have another soon-to-be Boy Scout son and you're concerned about his future Scouting experience, that changes the equation. If things in troop #1 are really ugly and your other sons are already moved up & out (or are about to), another consideration is finding another troop to start over.

You have positive support from 16 adults in the unit. Cultivate them as your core of support and they can help control the others. Since you want to make some changes, consider holding another meeting to discuss the new direction you would like to lead the troop and rationale behind it. Gently let them know you need their support in helping move things in the direction you all agree to before you will accept. If they agree, you have a green light to press ahead. Where you can, go easy. Change is tough.

Work closely with your CC and get his help dealing with unreasonable parents.

As for your ASM staff, recommend a separate meeting (with CC in attendance) to talk about your plans and expectations for their support and positions as role models. If any don't want to continue serving as ASMs, they can transfer to troop committee (if CC agrees) or take a break.

Some aren't going to like the changes and will leave the troop. No problem - you're better off without them if they aren't happy. Just continue to be kind and considerate as you help them find a new troop and handle the transfer. Your smaller troop will be stronger without the unhappy people aggitating in the background and you'll attract more members who want to be part of your unit.

Good luck, my friend! Let me know how it goes!!

-mike

Hal asked what the candidate put on the application for leadership position.

First of all, I wasn't there and haven't seen the app. From my short conversation with the EBOR Chair, I conclude he put the position and original dates. Since these dates were earlier than the dates he inserted for Life BOR (directly above), the EBOR started asking questions.

The Chair didn't convey the feeling that the candidate was lying or covering anything up. Just that he was confused since he had served in the position that one time and thought it counted for everything.

It was immediately noted that there is a training problem in the unit. This specific issue was immediately addressed with SM and UC staff is discussing how to help get unit on track in general.

In a recent discussion with Eagle BOR Chair, I learned they passed an almost-18 yr old candidate although it came out in discussion that he had only served in one position of responsibility for one 6-month term while a First Class Scout and was given advancement credit for Star, Life, and Eagle.

The Board said the troop adult leadership were the ones who made a mistake and they couldnt penalize the Scout. I questioned the purpose of the Board of Review if they werent going to ensure the requirements had been met and act accordingly, but they vaguely suggested this direction came from Council.

Your thoughts?

In the long-lost days of my youth, I joined a troop which was in-between scoutmasters and under control of the bully crowd. I quit after a few months until a new SM took control and showed the bullies the door. The troop prospered and I benefited.

In the troop I now serve, we have a crystal-clear policy of zero-tolerance for bullying behavior. First indiscretion gets a SM Conf to make sure they understand. Any further issues get a direct ticket home no matter how far or how late. (Weve only had that happen once.) Well tolerate good-spirited horseplay, but if it turns mean, they will immediately experience the full wrath. With clear expectations and consistent application, the guys respond.

Results: Awesome troop spirit and the best retention around.

You can get control of the bullies, but its going to take a firm commitment from the top. You might lose a few who think bullying is fun or just boys being boys. Good riddance. Youll soon find others knocking on your door who want to be part of this positive troop.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Hang in there its worth it!

Mike