Mike F

Island Boy,

Have you considered maybe handing over the Pack CC job and volunteering for SM? You probably have more experienced pack committee members that understand the program and could be convinced to take over, with you helping as an advisor for a while during transition.

-mike

For a Venture Crew, I highly recommend getting a copy of "NOLS Cookery", edited by Claudia Pearson.

They don't use pre-packaged meals at all. Crews carry bulk food, like noodles, dried beans, tomato powder, butter, cheese, flour, etc. I went on NOLS trip in 2004 and it's amazing all the great food you can whip up with minimal equipment, some imagination, and maybe their cookbook to get you started.

The first chapter of the book is on rations planning. Everything is based on dry food pounds per person per day (ppppd). Quick summary follows:

1.5 ppppd for warm conditions, base camping, short trips (2500-3000 calories/day)

1.75-2 ppppd if cool nights or hiking with full packs. For longer trips when appetites really kick in, edge it toward the high end. (3000-3500 cal/day)

2-2.25 ppppd for hiking/skiing with full packs, cool days, cold nights. (3500-4500 cal/day)

2.5 ppppd for cold days and very cold nights, skiing with full packs or sleds in mountains. Used for extremely strenuous days. (4500-5000 cal/day)

Having said all that, I wouldn't sweat it too much when getting started with crew. Just get them out in the woods and make sure they have a bit more food than they think they'll need to get started. As they gain experience on the weekend trips, they'll get a feel for it. Then plan to add more as weather gets colder and they get more ambitious. Heck, if this crowd doesn't know how much food they eat, maybe you can have some fun by having them cook a spaghetti dinner for your next meeting!

Cheers!

-mike

Scout's dad

Welcome to the campfire! We've been saving a place for you!!

You're smart to ask questions - most or all of us have been through this. I've seen exactly the same situation - right down to WB instructor SM. It's tough and will likely be a slow process.

Good advise in posts above.

Another approach to keep in bag of tricks: Get active in the game - support meetings, campouts, etc. You'll have to grit your teeth sometimes, but hang in there. You'll get more first-hand insights into inner workings. And adults/boys will begin to accept you as part of the team. (It's much harder to have an influence when you're seen as someone on the outside making comments.) As problems arise - and they will - be ready to thoughtfully, respectfully make recommendations or ask leading questions to guide discussion in the proper direction. Easy does it. It will, at best, be an evolutionary process as long as current SM is in place. I found late night adult discussions around the glowing embers of a campfire to be the place they were most receptive.

My story: Our WB instructor SM held onto the existing ways with great tenacity. Some of the other adults began to see the points I was making, but we were only allowed to tweak the existing system in small ways. After a few (frustrating) years, the WB SM handed over the reigns to new SM. New SM immediately came to me, said he was really impressed by the thought I had put into revamping our program, and asked for a complete plan to bring it on track. It was a tumultuous year, but its up and running. Some families liked the previous Eagle Mill environment more, so our registration numbers dropped by about 20%. But our campout attendance went up about 400% and our active involvement of high school aged scouts increased by much more.

Hardest single task: Training junior leaders to really do their jobs. This took continuous coaching and mentoring.

Biggest single mistake: Not having a parents meeting to introduce them to all of the changes in a controlled environment where we could answer questions and concerns.

Post note: Were now in our 3rd year. Leader training is not as difficult because the up-and-coming leaders have seen program being modeled by the older guys. Overall registration numbers are climbing. Not all is perfect, but weve come a long ways. And it was definitely worth it!

Good luck!

-mike

(This message has been edited by Mike F)

jdm,

Congratulations on getting them to come back! Welcome them back like long lost best friends!! Sure, they've missed out on the opportunity to work with the rest of the Den on the activity pins they've missed, but that shouldn't be a surprise. Nor should they be made to feel bad because they aren't wearing as many. Their reasons for going inactive aren't as important as getting them plugged back in and having fun. If they're motivated, I'm sure you can come up with some extra help to get them the opportunity to earn the Webelos badge and you probably aren't too far ahead with Arrow of Light to catch up.

As the others have already said, Webelos II doesn't necessarily mean they've already been a Webelos for a year. It just means this is their last year in Webelos If these 2 guys brought in a buddy right now who had never before worn a Cub Scout uniform, he'd also be a Webelos II. (Only difference is he'd start by earning his Bobcat pin.)

In the grand scheme of things, missing a year isn't a big deal. They still have a year of Cubbing and at least 7 as a Boy Scout to look forward to. Or maybe lots more, as most of us can attest!

I can relate to these guys. I dropped out of Boy Scouts for 6-8 months many moons ago. When I was finally talked into coming back to give it a try, I was surprised at the positive response I got, soon loved it, eventually became a strong leader in the troop, and earned Eagle. My oldest son did the same thing with the same results. Maybe these guys just took their break a little early.

All the best,

-mike

RK's Reader's Digest version is essentially correct, but I would have included specific written requirement that JASM has shown outstanding leadership skills. (Ref SM HB, p 15, and SPL HB, p 110) I know - it doesn't make sense since it also says the JASM follows the guidance of the SM in providing support and supervision to other boy leaders in the troop. But that's the way it's very clearly written in at least two places.

Both of these handbooks mention that a troop may set its own age, rank, and other qualification standards for SPL and PL. Exactly what these are (if any) is up to the troop, which is clearly intended to mean the PLC, because they are charged with running the troop.

JASM, however, is different. Both handbooks say the JASM should be at least 16 yrs old and have shown outstanding leadership skills.

I can find no explicit reference to qualification standards for other positions, except the SPL is supposed to select the best available for the job, in consultation with SM.

So, going strictly from the books, the SPL is free to select anyone he wants as a JASM, as long as JASM is 16 or older, has shown outstanding leadership skills, and the SM has consented.

Since JASM is an optional position not really required for the operation of the troop, most SPLs with whom I have been affiliated and blessed to serve, usually decide to utilize the JASM position for former SPLs who are usually older and such strong natural leaders that it would be better for them to serve in a senior leadership role under SM rather than under new SPL. Not all former SPLs fit in the JASM role due to age or weak leadership skills, but I think you can see the value in using it at times.

When you look at it closely, the JASM is out of the troop's line leadership chain:

SPL - ASPL - other staff

- PLs - Patrol members

It's possible for an SPL to be confronted with a 16yr old strong leader who has never been SPL and who wants to be JASM, but I'd encourage SPL to find the potential JASM a different position where he could be more help in the mainstream. I faced this about a hundred years ago when I was elected SPL (for a year) and had to deal with a strong leader who had just missed out on his last opportunity to be SPL because he would turn 18 during the next term. There as a rough month or so until we reached an understanding, but we had a very successful year and both proudly served as JASMs the next year, until my buddy traded in his JASM patch for an ASM patch. (And we're best friends to this day - still both active in scouting. So it can have happy endings.)

In my mind, a better fit for JASM is that very strong leader who has served so successfully as SPL that the rest of the troop will have trouble not naturally continuing to turn to him (unofficially) for leadership. In this situation, there just isn't a good fit for him in the line leadership chain and he is likely to unintentionally be disruptive. It's better for him to be under the more seasoned care of a watchful SM who can mentor him and help him to continue to develop his leadership skills in ways that allow the new SPL to manage his team.

Must JASM be Eagle? No - answer is in rank POR requirements. Since that's written in the books, troop (i.e., PLC) does not have the option to alter it.

But - once again - there's no requirement that anyone be JASM. SPL should be encouraged to utilize the position only when it makes sense.

-mike

Yee-haw!

These lasts posts are some of the most valuable I've seen!!

Thanks, gang!!!

-mike

OneHour,

Here's the process we used to get our Hi-Adventure Program rolling after it died a few years ago. Your mileage may vary.

2002 - I started talking up trip to our older guys about high adventure activities. There was mass confusion and much apathy. In spite of this, we persisted, managed to get 3 Philmont slots for 2004 and got started talking about Boundary Waters for 2003. BSA/Sommers was full during times we could make 2003, so we went with North Country Canoe Outfitters (http://www.boundarywaters.com). After making presentations to troop, we had enough interest for 2 crews.

2003 - We met every few weeks during the hour before troop meetings for preparation. Scheduled training/shakedown activities to deconflict with troop activities. Mostly day outtings, but we did weekend on Village Creek, north of Houston. (SHAC considers it to be "flat water" so your flatwater certification will suffice.) After Crew Leaders were selected by each crew, we included them in the mostly adult-led planning. Yes - scouts could have/should have done more of the heavy lifting, but we were just trying to get the ball rolling. Had an outstanding trip to Minn/Canada and the guys were fired up to do more.

2004 - Lots of activities getting 3 crews ready for Philmont. Adults still did a lot of the planning, but Crew Leaders and other interested scouts were more involved than before. Adults were lined up on a waiting list for this one. We made it clear we wanted a committment for participants to be willing to support future troop high-adventure activities. Had a great time and even more guys were fired up to do more.

2005 - The scouts were getting the hang of it. We led some brainstorming sessions to toss around ideas and they decided they wanted to tackle some of Colorado's high country - the Weinemuche Wilderness SE of Silverton. The scouts (finally!) did a lot of the planning and pulled off an excellent backpacking trip.

2006 - Some of the older scouts who have, or will be graduated from High School by next summer, are talking about doing their own trip back to Colorado without us older adults. This is what I consider to be the ultimate success.

My short recommendation:

Find some adults with an interest (canoeing, backpacking, caving, etc.) and get the ball rolling. Follow the BSA guidelines. Build interest in your older guys and get them as involved as possible, but press forward in any way necessary. After each activity, with renewed interest and confidence, challenge the guys to set their sites on the next goal.

One more repeat recommendation:

Keep your eyes open for a younger adult who is interested in returning to help out with scouts. We recruited a young man (with sons age 2 & 4) who is an Eagle and member of our Charter Org church. He can't make enough time for weekly meetings and monthly campouts, but has been a huge help with high-adventure activities. He loves it and the guys really enjoy working with him.

(BTW - I'll be at Fall OA Pow Wow - Hope to see you there!)

-mike

Seattle,

I know that's frustrating!

Some ideas:

1. Keep focusing on those former Webelos.

Maybe they're a bit burned out from the Cub/Webelos experience and don't understand the difference between what they've seen in the past and what they can expect in Boy Scouts. Emphasize fun and adventure. Put together a slide show or picture board of your troop in action. Is their former Webelos leader any help? He/she might be willing to call a meeting of all former members. Make it fun - meet at a pizza place. Have the troop pick up the tab for all former Webelos.

2. Parents are sometimes burned out, too. Many packs/dens today seem to "require," or at least expect, a parent of each member to be present at every activity. Probe a bit to see if this was the case in Webelos den. Let parents know that help is needed, but voluntary and not as much work as Cubs/Webelos.

3. Press. Use your local newspaper to get the word out about activities your troop is involved in. Submit a few pictures showing guys in action and a paragraph or two. This isn't just for Eagle Court of Honor - show anything! Many local papers are looking for some filler articles for the weekend edition. It can be fun activities, or show the troop involved in some service project. Anything to show scouts in a good light. Include your name and number at the end for anyone interested in visiting.

4. Recruiter patch. Most join scouting because they were invited by a friend. Encourage your existing members to bring in a friend and award them the Recruiter patch when the friend joins. Age of prospective incoming scout is sometimes a concern, but it shouldn't be. About 6 years ago, we had a guy join at age 14 and he jumped into the program, enjoyed National Jambo, loved high-adventure trips, and made Eagle with no problem.

5. Make it fun and meaningful. This is really #1 on priority list. If the existing guys in troop are having fun and think scouts is worthwhile, they (and their parents) can't help but spread the word. We had 2 brothers visit last night who are on the verge of dropping out of another troop. Instead of wasting precious minutes talking to them about our troop, the SPL assigned them to a patrol for the evening and they were treated like members for all activities. On the way home, they told their dad, "Wow - that was different! We want to come back next week."

Good luck!

-mike

I liked the idea of a ceremonialists-only cabin! If only we were all so lucky to have cabins to tempt them with.

In the smaller lodge of my youth, we spread the belief that being on the ceremony teams was cool. Members would typically wear a bit of costume most of the time. Something like a choker or other beaded piece. This made them stand out just a little bit in the crowd. We didn't have a special cabin, but did all camp together and had a lot of fun, making the other guys want to be part of the gang. Some of those ceremony team buddies are still my best friends 30+ years later.

We also recruited heavily within our own troops. When a new guy from our troop went through his Ordeal, we immediately started working on him to get him to come join us. Friends inviting friends is always best.

I'm in a monster lodge now and have found it's harder to recruit. (Or maybe it's just harder to recruit anywhere due to changing times, increasing conflicts, etc.) Today we find the only method that works is 1 on 1 contact - usually in person. We've sent out the email and letter requests/invitations, but don't think we've ever had somebody pop up out of the blue and volunteer. Chapter Advisors can work over the SMs at Roundtable. SMs, Troop OA Advisors, and Troop OA reps can work on their guys. Existing team members can drag buddies into it.

Start them off by offering an easy part. Every ceremony can be enhanced by one or two extra torch bearers, etc. Once they see how much fun it is to turn some ratty costumes and barely-memorized lines into an almost magical event by firelight, they'll be hooked.

Team costumes available to borrow are also very important. If you don't have those, at least have some extra leggings, shirts with ribbons, etc., that someone can jump into with short notice.

And treat the guys special. Have a cooler with sodas, snacks, etc., available for all members after the ceremony. Take team pictures so they'll have something to remember. Recognize their efforts at Chapter and Lodge functions. Heck, at troop functions, too! (Like introduce and praise all ceremony team members, chapter/lodge officers at troop courts of honor, newsletters, scrapbooks, etc.)

Good luck!

-mike (Meechgalanee Sakima)

BW - right on!

CASCOUTER - please let us know how things develop. It's going to be hard, but in the scout's best interest. He needs to learn accountability.

-mike

(The lantirn glows a little brighter. Or, I think I'm starting to see the light.)

To re-frame the issue, why would we even consider slowing a scout's advancement? Usually because we don't think he has the maturity (or skills, spirit, participation, or whatever) to move up to the next level.

The easy way to address the shortcoming is to set an arbitrary age, but there are a bunch of problems with this:

1. No one can add a requirement.

2. Age doesn't equate to maturity.

3. It's just outright not fair to those fast-burners who DO have the ability, desire, and opportunity to move forward at a faster than average pace.

4. I'm sure I'm missing more....

Bob White hit the solution directly on the head. "The scout has either completed the requirement or he hasn't." If there's concern about a scout's readiness to advance, age doesn't provide a solution. Take a close look at some other parts of your program - you may find areas where we've wandered off the trail or at least missed some trail markers.

1. Positions of Responsibility: Maybe it's time to take a look at our standards for the successful completion of a tour of duty in a POR. Do the scouts know what's expected? Do they have clear instructions of what they need to do in order to be considered successful in the position? Are they trained? Does someone check in on their progress frequently and provide feedback? Is it clear to them that if they do not meet expectations in spite of the training and assistance, they will not be allowed to continue to hold the position and will not get advancement credit for it?

-- If scouts are given advancement credit for wearing a position patch for 6 months and making no effort to do anything at all, we could easily find ourselves promoting scouts who aren't ready for it. The problem is not the age, it's job performance. If we've done our part right, it will be clear he didn't meet the requirement.

2. Selecting leaders: Do we follow the instructions in the handbooks? (There's more details, but in general, troop elects SPL and patrols elect PLs. Practically all other leaders that count for rank advancement are selected by the SPL.) SPL is told in his handbook to select the best guys available for the job that are willing to do it. It doesn't say anything about only selecting someone who "needs" a position for his next rank. It doesnt say anything not selecting someone for the same position two (or more) terms in a row if they are the best for the job and willing. Or selecting someone for another different position after theyve finished up a term doing something else. We can provide guidance for the SPL to select leaders with a consideration to growing the next crop helping them to mature in the process but thats about it.

-- If leaders are selected when they're ready for a position, they stand a good chance of being ready for the responsibility and all it entails (including maybe the next rank). When adults foul with the program and assign PORs for a variety of reasons, the system doesn't have a chance to work. This one thing will do a lot to keep guys on the advancement pace that is right for them.

-- Note: This doesnt mean the SPL should only select strong proven leaders for all of his positions. Most will have to grow into the position and many will need some care&feeding along the way. The issue of only selecting strong, proven leaders is also one thats almost never a problem. Most scouts will want a down-time after expending a lot of effort in a position. Some will have been motivated to take on the job only for rank advancement and it will be difficult to convince them to step back up to the plate so soon. But some will find they enjoy being a leader and wont be happy reverting back to Patrol Member status with minimized input into the troops operations. These guys will be hungry to lead and to grow and will form the nucleus of really strong leadership that it takes to run an active troop.

3. Scout spirit: Do scouts have a clear understanding about what it takes to successfully get this one signed off? We need to make our expectations clear. When maturity or behavior problems are the underlying issue/concern, this one can be the key to holding a scout accountable and helping him grow in a positive direction. The requirement says Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. This shouldnt be an automatic signoff and it isnt just about being able to recite a few positive examples. When the SM knows about instances where the scouts actions were decidedly Un-Scout like, these are most certainly fair game. Actions inside scouting and outside (i.e., school, home, and community) are all to be considered it says in your everyday life. If they are Scouts, their actions at all times reflect on us all. This requirement directly addresses one of our three Aims of Scouting: Character Development.

-- In short, if a scout has issues with his scout spirit, we are NOT slowing down his advancement. Keep the rationale clear he simply hasnt met the requirement.

YIS,

-mike

(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Eamonn,

I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone said anything about a scout not doing his best. That's not the issue.

I love ya man, but sometimes it says "demonstrate how to tie the knot," not "do your best to tie the knot."

There are some requirements that must be met -- not just best effort.

-mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Bob White,

I thought the SM had to sign a blue card authorizing a scout to begin working on a MB. (But something at the edge of my recollection is whispering that there may have been a fairly recent change in how the blue cards were handled.)

If SM has to sign the card before work can begin, can't he work to help the scout find another MB counselor that isn't his parent?

As a personal matter, I've never signed my own kids off on any of the merit badges or other skills I teach. I have helped them learn the subject matter, but made them go through the learning process of setting up a meeting with another counselor or a Troop Instructor, because I feel they learn more in the process.

As for the general question about "slowing" a scout's advancement, this does open a can of worms. As previously stated, requiring a certain age for rank is not allowed, although the troop may address this indirectly by requiring a certain age to hold each position of responsibility. But what's the real issue here? The underlying issue/concern is about making sure the scout has the maturity, etc., for each rung of the ladder. We can't hold him back at the SM Conference because we don't think he's mature enough, etc. If maturity (or playing well with others, etc.) is a concern, this should be picked up along the way under the requirements for positions of responsibility and scout spirit. It takes a lot more work to clearly spell out expectations and to coach/counsel/mentor along the way, but this is exactly what the scout needs to help him mature and grow. I'd personally rather work it this way than by inserting POR age requirements.

Of course, there's also the point (which I don't think has been mentioned) about how scouts get their POR in the first place. If you're following the book, most PORs are either elected (SPL and PLs) or appointed by the SPL. The SM also has some leeway by choosing to assign a leadership project or selecting a scout to serve as a Den Chief. Holding up a scout with maturity or other issues shouldn't be a problem. What SPL wants to invite this kind of problem onto his leadership staff? (Let me answer that question: The SPL who's being forced to by his SM or other adults - usually parents. Rarely the SPL may also select an unsuitable buddy for a position, but SM has the expressed responsibility of looking out for this one.)

We just ran into this Eagle-age issue in one of the troops I serve. We have an immature scout who has significant difficulties working with other scouts, but has an incredible drive to advance. (Two issues are directly related to his overwhelming "Me first" attitude.) There was considerable documented evidence to support not signing off on his recent POR tour and scout spirit. Over the objections of scouter staff, the SM signed him off on everything (including his Eagle Project), then refused to give the scout his SM Conference for Eagle because he was only 14. Incredible. The scout and his parents were understandably upset and this was overruled when they appealed to counsel.

Kudu,

Excellent!

I like the way you think!!

Thx!!!

-mike

Ronvo asked about the ribbons on the Troop 17 uniforms.

Check out the description under "Recognition Plan" on their home page.

I've never seen anything like it.

Centreville Scout,

We never heard back from JAM, but I suspect you're right that they were unable to get permission to void and start over with elections. The books all say the election as conducted should stand. That's not to say it's impossible to get a variance, but I've been through painful experiences like this and had to chalk it up to lessons-learned for next year.

As far as the SM having the authority to strike a name from the ballot, I refer you to pg 52 of the official OA Guide to Inductions which I linked above.

"4. The unit leader provides a list of registered active members of the unit who meet all eligibility requirements, including attitude and participation."

Looks to me that the SM can exclude potential candidates based on bad attitude or lack of participation. I've seen it happen - and turn out well when the scouts were counseled about the problems and changed their ways to be elected the next year.

-mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

I always take a chair and most of our guys do, too.

Comfortable folding chair for the short hauls and a Crazy Creek for the long ones. Crazy Creek worked great at Philmont last summer. Place in back of the pack (up against your back) to pad the bulky items during the day, provide some lower back support in campsite, then lay flat under torso part of Therm-a-rest to pad rocks/roots at night. I trimmed all the excess weight I could, but this 1-2 pounds was well worth it.

Ditto for PVC frame.

Can glue some of the corner pieces to make it easier to assemble at camp.

I've always draped mosquito net over the frame and long enough to prevent gaps at bottom.

#2 son ran into unusual problem a couple of summers ago. Skeeters didn't get in, but spiders seemed to love crawling under bottom and setting up inside. He solved problem by tieing the net inside the PVC frame and tucking edges of net under his sleeping bag.

Good discussion.

After other efforts to instruct, train, encourage, discuss, etc., all fail to correct the problem, it's time to demonstrate to the scout (and maybe the parents) that there is a consequence for their actions. I've found this often comes as a shock - it seems scouting is the first place where they are held accountable in this way. It's a valuable life-lesson to learn at an early age. Some will see the light, adapt, and flourish. Some will leave for good. We agonize over those, but have to remember our first priority is making sure the troop is a safe place for all scouts.

This isnt a new phenomenon. Many moons ago I was temporarily driven out of my troop by a band of out-of-control bullies. When troop leaders finally decided to handle the problem, the bullies all left and I came back to enjoy scouting for over 30 years. It brought no joy to see each of the bullies in the news as the criminal justice system finally showed them they are accountable for their actions.

-mike

A rare bird, indeed, is an Eagle at 12.

My sons have heard me say a hundred times, "I'd rather see a boy finish up his Eagle on the cusp of his 18th birthday, rather than get it at 15 and drop out."

My oldest scheduled his Eagle SM Conference for the evening before his 18th birthday a couple of months ago. When I asked him about his timing, he just grinned and said, "Dad, I've heard you say it one too many times!" I knew what he was talking about and we had a good laugh.

He wasn't one of those that disappeared in his late teens, showing up at the 11th hour to finish a project. He was actively engaged in various leadership positions for the last 4.5 years - finally serving as SPL during his senior year in HS. The growth he has gone through in the process is nothing short of amazing and it is already opening doors. The next adventure begins in a few weeks when he departs to start Basic Cadet Training at the Air Force Academy.

He certainly could have pinned on Eagle years ago, but would have run the risk of deciding he'd reached his goal and quitting. His more recent experiences leading high adventure crews and revamping the troop's leadership program are what really contributed to his growth and eventually made his application essays sizzle. Every scout is different, but for my son the long and challenging trail has prepared him for the challenges ahead.

Sorry - please forgive me - I just had to take this opportunity to brag a bit.

Proud dad

(-mike)

Good points and references above in what to look for.

I'd like to add some thoughts on HOW to conduct the search.

As a scouter parent, I would visit a lot of troops that sounded like they had potential. This will hopefully mean visiting a few. When making these initial visits, I wouldn't take my son. Some might argue that he needs to make the choice and should be fully involved in the process, but it can be confusing and tiring to visit a number of troops.

Things to do when visiting:

1. Observe. Are they following the program? Who is running the show? What are their meetings like? Their camping program? You can gain a lot of insight from a troop calendar.

2. Listen. Stand off to the side and listen to the chatter between boys while doing activities. Do you hear helpful support (good spirit) or nasty little comments and ridicule (poor spirit). All troops have unique personalities - does this one sound like it will be compatible with your son? Do the same thing with adult leaders. They'll often try to pull you aside to give you the sales pitch, but that gets in the way of first-hand observations - you want to see what they're really doing, not just talking about. If you can't avoid the sales pitch and the troop seems interesting, go back next week and insist you just want to hang out and observe.

3. Ask questions. Lots of questions. But remember - you're not there to debate the methods of scouting, just seeking insight on how they use them (or not). If there's not enough time to get all your questions answered during the meeting, ask the SM if he or someone else would be available some time to chat some more.

After your fact-finding visits, compile your information and try to highlight what you see as the Pros and Cons of each troop. Then it's time to sit down and discuss it all with your son to come up with a list of troops he wants to visit. Then go and have some fun.

If the troop insists on boring your son by pulling him aside for a sales pitch during the first visit, go back again and just ask to be included in the normal activities.

I used this process when seeking troop for #2 son (who wasn't going to be joining #1 son's troop - long story). Although I personally had a favorite, I wouldn't tell him and we visited several. The first two or three were a bust. "Boring, dad." When we visited the next (my favorite, but his 3rd or 4th choice), they were clearly glad to see him, put him in a patrol for the meeting, and they were off and running - literally. As we got in the car, he says, "Dad - I am definitely joining this troop." We haven't looked back and are both having a ball. (Fortunately his troop meets on a different night than #1 son's.... Yes - I'm a little crazy. And tired. But it's worth every bit of the hassle.)

I wish I had used this approach with #1 son. I just let him transition from Webelos with all his buddies into a troop that I quickly learned had a host of problems. Within a year, almost all of his buddies had dropped out and my #1 son was soon to follow. We did some searching, found a good fit for him, and I convinced him to give it another try. There have been bumps along the way, but he's been active almost all the way, developed into a very respected leader, and finished up his Eagle (with 3 hrs to spare before turning 18).

One more thought - don't assume you can roll in to help them fix any problems you see so it will all eventually be better. They already have a program and processes in place and it's working to some extent or they wouldn't be there for you to visit. I've never known a troop (or any other organization) to really welcome someone coming in with lots of ideas about how they should be doing things better. It takes a lot of patience, time, and tact to bring about change. You just have to roll up your sleeves and get to work. If leadership training is an issue, you can volunteer to put together the next Troop JLT. If camping program is weak, you can volunteer to research some new places to go camping. Etc. In short, get involved and help make positive things happen. After you build up some respect with your own sweat in the game, they'll be more responsive to your other ideas.

Good luck!

-mike

Hunt,

I agree with you -- wish more kids would just enjoy the time outside doing things they don't often get to do.

And agree with ACCO40 about there being more to camp than just collecting merit badges.

One of the things we discussed last year was prohibiting the guys from taking the Cits, Communications, and a few others. Loudest outcry was from parents who wanted their kids to have opportunity to rack up those Eagle-reqd MBs. We gave up on preventing scouts from taking them and settled on ensuring they're done right.

We have also wrestled with how to make camp more of an experience than just going to MB classes. The adult and youth leaders put some effort into planning and executing daily troop activities during last year's camp. Some skills, some learning, and all fun. The guys really bonded and boy leadership grew substantially. Our goal is to get older guys into the habit of going to camp for the experience after they've earned all of the merit badges. Wish I had more answers on this one -- I need to get up and take a long walk away from the campfire every time I hear a scout (or parent) say they're not going to summer camp because they already have all the MBs they need that are offered. When one of my sons pulled that a few years ago, I didn't argue with him - but I woke him up on Monday morning of camp and showed him the dump truck delivering a huge load of mulch, then thanked him for deciding to stay home to help out. He hasn't missed camp since.

Good luck!

-mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

KS,

Your post was a direct shack.

(Fighter pilot talk for a bomb dropped directly on intended target. I know you knew that - just translating for others who may not...)

-mike

Hunt,

We had an issue with Communications after last year's summer camp. Reqmt #5 "Attend a public meeting (city council, school board, debate) approved by your counselor where several points of view are given on a single issue. Practice active listening skills and take careful notes of each point of view. Present an objective report that includes all points of view that were expressed, and share this with your counselor."

The class met this requirement by attending the nightly SPL meeting. It was "legal" since it was approved by the counselor, but some in the troop really didn't think the SPL meeting was on the same level as a city council meeting and that the boys had missed out on a great opportunity to observe communications at a higher level. Although the MBs weren't withheld pending it, we set up an opportunity for the guys to visit a city council meeting so they could get full benefit. Most attended. All were awarded the badge.

This problem generated some serious discussion within SM Staff and Troop Committee and we discovered a number of requirements in different MBs that clearly were not met at camps, but were signed off by the camp counselors. (This doesn't apply to Comm MB because the requirement says it's the counselors choice, but does apply to Metalworking MB when they skipped hammered rivets, etc.)

Our efforts to get the problem addressed through council channels failed. (I guess there's a lot of pressure to get them done and not send scouts home with partials.) This bothered us because it's an integrity issue - the scouts don't really want to be given a badge they know they didn't completely earn. We solved the problem with an internal practice:

1. Review requirements of all MBs offered and identify up-front which ones will be hard or impossible to complete entirely at camp. Let scouts and parents know they can certainly take the MB, but may be bringing home a partial.

2. Work on a plan to complete the unmet requirements when we get home. (Or better yet, get a head start and take evidence of the completed hard-to-do-at-camp requirements to the camp counselor.)

3. When we get to camp, we discuss any concerns with the Program Director or individual counselors. If they have a plan to accomplish all of the requirements, all is good. For cases where they get uncomfortable and are clearly cutting corners, we quietly & politely ask them to please give our scouts partials - regardless of what they decide to do with the others. (I suppose we should really start beating our drums about their lack of integrity and make an issue of it so it will get fixed on a broad scale, but a guy only has so much energy. Our job is to help provide a quality program for the scouts. When we turn them over to camps and their programs, I believe we still have a responsibility to make sure the program measures up.)

We used this approach at Winter Camp with great success. While there was some disappointment, the guys held their heads high knowing they had taken the high road. And everybody finished up their MBs within a month or so of camp.

Hope this helps.

Cheers!

-mike