Mike F

We were about #1000 on the waiting list for this summer. I got a letter today saying they have had an unprecidented number of drops and have worked their way through the entire waiting list. They are giving waiting list folks one more opportunity before opening up the opportunity for new crews.

We're heading to Sea Base and can't swing two HA trips in one summer. For some very lucky folks, it's time to jump-start your training and fitness program for the adventure of a lifetime!

bnelon44,

You bring up another important point which impacts "chaos theory." In the troop I serve, we always encourage the boys to elect/select the best available leaders for each position. As a result, it's not uncommon for PLs to serve 2 or more terms, although not necessarily consecutively. Most SPLs only serve one term, but we've had several who served for a full year. Same is true for other PORs. The more seasoned leaders are more comfortable and effective. They have all commented on how much more they enjoyed the second term because they were finally getting the hang of this leadership stuff.

In other troops I have served where rapid advancement was the priority, the adults managed all of the leadership opportunities so scouts could meet POR requirements on schedule. As a result, youth leadership was weak and the adults had to burn a ton of energy yelling for quiet. No thanks.

I'll have to say I don't think "total chaos" is necessarily a positive measure of merit.

In the troop I serve, the older boys demand discipline. Within a few weeks of crossover, we have a silent, still formation with each scout in line looking toward the front. If someone starts to twitch, he'll have several surrounding boys give him the eye of disapproval. It's amazing how quickly they catch on.

When it's time to play, they are loud and boisterous. When it's time to work, they're pretty much down to business.

This isn't 100%, but very close. It didn't come easy, either. Older boys complained at a Troop JLT a few years ago that discipline was slipping. I challenged them to fix it and we brainstormed an initial course of action. When problems arise, PL and older boys in patrol handle it. If need help, SPL rolls in. They've never had to bring me in to fix a problem.

Kudu - I just noticed - welcome back. Coffee is a little thick. Let's finish it and start a new pot. We've missed your voice.

CPA Mom,

If as you describe, Troop A is on life support and Troop B is probably in trouble because Boy Scouts is not supposed to be just more school. From the boy's point of view, it's about fun, friends, and adventure.

Ask more questions about Troop B's retention and level of activity. With every similar troop I've known, over half of their new scouts drop in the first 2 years and virtually all have become inactive (not camping, not running the troop, etc) by the time they are in High School.

The guys have been in school all day. They don't really want to come to scouts just to sit in more classes. They want to have an exciting campout to look forward to and use the meeting time to get prepared. Advancement is a little slower, but guys enjoy it much more and are better able to get maximum life value out of the program.

I reckon we all struggle in this area and most have a few scars if we try and maintain integrity in the system.

Specific things like participation percentages can be expectations, but it gets messy when someone tries to make them requirements. If a scout is falling short of the expectations, its time to take a closer look to make sure theyre still meeting the requirements of the job.

We use a written contract tailored to each POR. They are discussed as part of Troop JLT. It is signed by the leader, his immediate boss, and SPL. We make them available for interested parents. At the end of the term, the leader documents a summary of his actions during the term and submits a form to apply for leadership credit. They know what's expected so they can work to meet it.

The job descriptions are written to show increased levels of responsibility and leadership for higher ranks. (Example: A 1st Class Den Chief is expected to help the Den Leader. A Life Scout fulfilling his POR for Eagle is required to show significant initiative and independently plan and run Den meetings.)

When things are working right, we train, monitor, coach, guide, mentor and advise each leader during his tour of duty. If hes consistently falling short, we make sure he knows hes not meeting expectations and we make sure he knows what he needs to do to get where he needs to be. Its up to him to step up. We also let his parents know that hes struggling.

Its fairly common for scouts to reach the end of their term without growing sufficiently and demonstrating they are ready for the next level (rank). Its not a surprise to the scout or his parents, nor do we make it a big deal. Hes growing and were helping him in the process.

We played this out last week with a 15-yr old scout working toward Life. His first POR as Den Chief was weak he missed most of the meetings and didnt meet the expectations of Den Leader. No punishment or yelling just some counseling on how he needs to improve his game in order to meet expectations for Life. Next he served in a different position within the troop, showed a very slight improvement, but still missed, forgot, and didnt follow through on way too much. Feedback along the way was clear, so no surprises at the end. We had a SM Conf to discuss his progress and a few specifics on where he needs to demonstrate more responsibility. The lights are starting to come on hes getting it. Since the meeting, both of his parents have contacted me and thanked me for making the effort to get him to wake up. They see the same problems at home and school.

In my opinion, this is how the system is really intended to work. I would much rather work with a boy as he struggles, than put him through the humiliation of removing him from the job. These are tough lessons for a boy, but better to learn fundamentals of responsibility and accountability as a 14-yr old, rather than at 34.

When parents dont trust us to be doing the right things for their son and start demanding promotion because scout served his 4-6 months to the day, it gets much more difficult. The written/signed contracts help, but some parents want to push anyway. After explaining that BSA gives me only one other option removing a scout from his position as soon as he shows a deficiency usually gets them to back off. When it doesnt, everybody loses. Ive only had it happen once with parents jumping over District (where I sent them) to complain at Council. This forced me to set up a formal review to document the details of the scouts subpar performance. Our decision was upheld due to written, signed agreements and clear documentation, but unnecessarily created hard feelings. The Scout seemed to understand and accept his progress in our troop, because he knew we were being fair and consistent. Parents forced him to transfer to another troop. Scout is now miserable and misses his buddies.

(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Exibar,

We just did something like this as part of an annual survival campout. It got some discussion here:

http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=265429

You can find a fairly comprehensive description of what we ended up doing on Page 4.

This was a new experience for almost all of our guys, but well received.

Go for it!!

Night is a great time for some skill action, too!

A couple of our favorites:

1. Night orienteering competition. We do this at least once a year as a troop. Last year we ran it as an official event at District Camporee.

2. Night compass course in canoes. Guys do 3-4 legs of a compass course on the lake and place a survey marker at their final location. We do this about every 5-6 years, so it's a totally unexpected skill competition when it happens. (We don't use distance - just follow bearing until hit shore, then head out on next bearing, so they are effectively bouncing around a medium-sized lake. This is a blast to watch from dark, silent canoe out there in the area.

On our first one, we threw down near cars with tents/sleeping bags on Fri night. After quick breakfast on Sat morning, the tents and bags were loaded into cars and we hiked into the forest to start the scenarios. The senior staff was wondering what we would be doing in the afternoon. They were shocked to find out how much work surviving required. (Low temps around 45F, no rain.)

Great stuff!

allangr,

Sounds like fun! Is this the troop's first survival campout? Please tell us how it goes.

Buff's old thread is full of excellent ideas!

This annual activity was initiated solely by our PLC about 4-5 years ago. It has become their favorite campout of the year. Since it's pretty hard-core, we always do it in Feb, just before the new cross-overs start joining. We always do it on a remote bit of National Forest and leave branches/poles/boughs in natural-looking brush piles for animal shelters.

Our staff and adults all do the same things - using only the materials the boys have, with the exception of a little bit of coffee.

Options:

- Allow them to have day packs with standard stuff for a 5-mile day hike, then get lost and need to spend the night. All you have is what you carried in the small pack. This is a VERY realistic scenario for scouts. Set up signal devices (fires/markers/etc), boil water for drinking, and lots of other ideas from Wilderness Survival MB handbook. Food - only their day-hike lunch. Use this entire drill to impress upon them the need to carry critical items on those day hikes (large trash bags, rain gear, snack, flashlight, etc.)!

- After doing the above once, pull it on them without notice. You're on a regular campout, have the guys take off on a 5-10 miler, then tell them they're lost - this is their campsite - they better get busy with what they have.

- We will sometimes change things up by taking away most of their stuff and giving them a few other materials. An example is tissue-thin painter's drop-cloth plastic. It's too thin to use by itself for shelter, so need to build sturdy support frame. We also bought an old round parachute and gave each patrol some of the material to use for shelter, bedding, etc. (By itself, almost no insulation, but can be used to make layered comforter with pine boughs and dry leaves which is quite warm.)

- A few times we have allowed them to bring their own home-made personal survival rations (beef jerky, dried fruits/veggies). Note: A little bit of this stuff will go a long ways! If they have their own food, they will not be as motivated to participate in the following two options.

- Often we will have the opportunity for them to find other survival rations (MREs) either by following a compass course or lighting a signal fire on command.

- If they set up snares, they will usually be rewarded with a chicken or two from the grocery store. (Option here to substitute live/freshly-killed chickens or rabbits. See other thread "Killing for food (not hunting)" for more info.)

- Maybe allow no compasses. Patrols must use sun or stars to establish cardinal directions, lay this out on the ground, then give them a basic navigation problem. Maybe tell them up front that "a search aircraft dropped food rations at a distance of 1/4 mile at a bearing of 123-deg." That's too much area to search without good vector, so need to work on getting good bearing before starting out. Other option uses the hands of a watch to estimate direction, but this is much less accurate.

- Combine first-aid case with survival situation. Give one of the scouts an envelope with symptoms.

There are tons of options. You can do this every year and have a different experience every time, so it doesn't get old for the senior guys.

Have fun!

Wow lots to comment on!

Engineer,

If you thought I was making an excuse, I wasnt clear. I am very proud of my guys for coming up with some exciting ideas and taking the initiative to figure out how to make them happen. Im not making an excuse Im sharing a victory. We have no vegetarians in the troop I serve, so everyone is involved in the death of living animals for food, even if they dont think about that part of the process.

Local public sentiment? Irrelevant as far as Im concerned. We dont take a community poll before doing what we believe is right within the boundaries established by the law and BSA regulations. Sentiment of the families within our troop is the only sentiment about which I am concerned. Our families know we sometimes do some things which are above and beyond the norm in Boy Scouting. Thats why most of them joined the troop I serve.

Local law? Researched and no issue.

Religious contradictions? None of which I am aware. Parents knew plans ahead of time and had opportunity to comment. As I said earlier, there were some questions and concerns which we resolved.

Inappropriate PLC desires? BSA doesnt say anything at all about it. Just to be sure, we checked with our DE. When the boys have brought up things like Paint Ball and Air Soft wars, we turn them off because BSA clearly prohibits these things. (Not to mention they clearly are not safe.) They havent thought of modifying semi-auto weapons into fully-auto, yet, but we do have certified BSA gun instructors in the troop.

Philosophy/Moral impact of killing? (See more below)

Scouting, moral man, outdoor activities, other way around? I have no idea what youre trying to say here.

Closely monitoring your boys troop and SMs? I must disagree. Dont just monitor. Get involved, trained, and in the game.

Fishing catch and release only? Why? No interest in earning Fishing MB, I guess. One of my earliest outdoor memories was going fishing with my father and the pride of knowing I helped put the food on the table that night. By the way, BSA sets you up with everything you need to clean and cook fish in the Boundary Waters. The last time I was there, the guys were desperate to catch more fish because it was an older crew and we didnt have as much food as they wanted.

Is the PRIMARY goal of Scouting to mold boys into men of good character? Yes - absolutely agree! I just happen to believe its MORE ethical for meat eaters to understand where their meat is really coming from. Also, since this was outside of our experience as a troop, the guys got to work through the process of coming up with a new idea, overcoming obstacles, and figuring out how to make it happen.

Zippyboro,

Agreed there is indeed so much more to scouting than reenacting a survivor episode. But guys love watching that show and whats the harm in figuring out how to let them experience a little bit of it for themselves? Its a good test of many scout skills. Forgetting the rabbit for a moment, there is a HUGE benefit in getting them to learn how to prepare shelters using limited materials, practice building signal fires which can be ignited with certainty with a moments notice, purifying water, finding directions without a compass, etc.

OK now heres a quick description of how we made this happen. Some of this is repeated, but it might help to put it all in one place. For those of you in hunting areas, you could probably skip some of these steps. We took it easy because we realized this was the first time most of the guys had ever seen anything like this.

#1. It was important to make it clear that life is precious. When you eat meat, an animal gave up its life and this is not to be taken lightly. We respect that life and we do our best to make its termination quick and as painless as possible. Wasting what we kill is immoral. We do not tolerate the indiscriminate killing of any creature. The troop rule is that if you kill anything bigger than a cockroach, you eat it. The guys know without a shadow of doubt that I am totally serious about this.

#2. We purchased rabbits which had been raised for the purpose of butchering. This required a lot more logistics, but it just seemed wrong to buy rabbits from a pet store.

#3. Only a few people saw the rabbits alive. This was to minimize the shock impact.

#4. The killing of the rabbits was not the frenzied bloodbath some seem to be imagining. It was conducted by the SPL and ASPLs with adult supervision. These guys are in high school and their parents were consulted. I wont go into precise details, but we used the technique recommended by the rabbit farmer. It was very quick and bloodless.

#5. After the rabbits were killed, they were given to patrols. Patrol leaders had already been trained in cleaning rabbits. Adults oversaw, advised, and assisted. Some of the boys got their hands dirty. Some did not. No big deal either way.

For those of you wondering how we managed to do something like this, I offer this as a guideline for a program enhancer. For those who are convinced I am running a tribe of junior barbarians, Im probably never going to convince you otherwise.

This worked out so well for our group, I am quite certain we will be doing this every year or so as part of our annual survival campout experience. The word has certainly traveled through local scouting circles. We have signed up all of the new Webelos Crossovers we can handle and are now closed for recruiting.

I steadfastly believe that in order to mold them into men of good character, we have to keep them in the game long enough to mature. Sometimes being a little outrageous keeps it interesting. Others say being a little dangerous is what a young man needs to become truly alive. (Ref: Wild at Heart, by John Eldredge)

(This message has been edited by Mike F)

From the lack of information, it sounds to me like there's also at least a threat of legal action here. In my not-so-humble opinion, that rarely makes things better. Hope they can get it resolved so the young man and everyone can move on. It would also be valuable to find out what exactly did happen so we can all avoid it!

I know we had one scout family who decided not to attend because of the planned rabbit dinner, but 25 scouts had a great experience with some saying this was the best campout ever. Not just because of the rabbit, but more due to the survival scenario and challenges they faced.

The scout who skipped the campout has been active since and nobody buy me knows why he wasn't there. It's no big deal. We camp all year and he's free to skip one for whatever reason. Or he's free to transfer to another local troop if he doesn't like our program.

By the way, this wasn't just a Survival MB course -- this has become an annual event since the PLC insisted on doing it the first time 4-5 years ago. We cover MB basics and have expanded it to include many different kinds of shelters, signal options, etc. To keep it interesting, we set up scenarios which are played out over the entire weekend.

To repeat, the rabbits were an idea which came totally from the PLC. When they floated the idea, I challenged them to figure out how to make it work. They found the rabbit farm, found a willing adult leader/trainer, and took initiative to buy one for a practice session at a PLC meeting a few days later. The guys moved so quickly, it caught most of adults by surprise.

Other posters have posed questions about how to keep the guys involved as they get older. Our guys are active all the way through High School and some while they are in college. I believe the challenge of coming up with new ideas and the excitement/fulfillment of carrying them out is a big reason why.

Your mileage may vary.

asichacker,

Wow - according to your profile, your interests are "Youth baseball coach, no involvement in Scouting. Don''t see Scouting as beneficial."

I appreciate the work you do as a coach. My boys all played baseball and I'm glad guys like you had the skills and desire to share your passion for the game with them. I never slammed my kid's coaches because I knew they understood the details of the game and instruction better than me. And I have never been inclined to wander by the local ball fields to criticize coaches of random teams.

Why do you feel a need to wander by this forum to criticize me for doing my best to deliver a program in which you have no involvement?

Were both meeting the needs of boys as they grow into young men of character who are better prepared for life. Some are attracted and excel on your playing field and some do better on mine. A few benefit greatly from both. Our teams look different, but our goals are really very similar.

Update.

We had a very successful survival campout last weekend and enjoyed delicious fresh rabbit!

Found a place to buy live rabbits which had been raised for food and we brought them in on Saturday afternoon.

SPL and his Senior Staff killed the rabbits humanely and placed the rabbits in patrol snares.

Patrols brought their rabbits to central location for coaching and assistance in cleaning. Some of the boys were willing to get their hands dirty and some watched from the edge with apprehension.

Some patrols had a small container for boiling rabbit into soup. Others cooked theirs on rotisserie over fire (but lost valuable drippings!). We did provide a small amount of salt and seasonings. Since the boys had not had anything to eat since Fri night, they were all plenty hungry and most declared the rabbit to be the most delicious thing they had ever eaten.

I have a feeling we have a new tradition!

UPDATE:

PLC and Instructors have now been trained in dispatching and dressing a rabbit.

All parents were consulted, talked it over with sons, and gave consent.

Looks like we're on our way to a legendary survival campout!

We already have a troop rule: If you kill anything bigger than a cockroach, you eat it.

I know it's not in the Wilderness Survival MB any more, but we always have the patrols building snares and traps on these campouts. If they do a good job, they are rewarded a store-bought chicken or two. If they don't do a good job, they stay a little more hungry.

The truth is, the energy required to build the snares and traps is very unlikely to be offset with captured prey and is unnecessary in most situations, but it's a cool skill that boys want to know.(This message has been edited by Mike F)

We have found sources for both live rabbits and chickens raised to sell for food - no problem there.

We did a chicken on a survival campout a few years ago - the guys are still talking about it - and now the current PLC wants to go one better with live rabbits. (I agree - cleaning rabbits is much easier - but more emotional because they're cute and they are sometimes pets. Important tip: Do not give your dinner a name!)

We're negotiating with concerned parents now. Will probably spare the guys the up-close-and-disturbing part by giving patrols rabbits which are freshly killed and boys have never seen alive. It's one thing to go find the wild rabbit you just shot (or snared) and another to pet him until you whack his head.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Our guys are working on survival skills leading up to next campout.

PLC wants to demonstrate how to kill, clean, and cook a domestic animal like a rabbit or chicken. We have adults who are ready, willing, and able to teach this skill to a few senior boys so they can do demonstrations at the patrol level.

I really like it when the guys lean forward to try something new, but one parent objects to the guys killing living animals when it's not really a survival situation.

We certainly won't force this activity on any boy or family who objects, but I also want to know if BSA says anything about it. G2SS only talks about hunting.

Is there another prohibition out there?

Thanks!

asichacker,

I may have gotten a little carried away in my last post.

From your son's point of view right now, it's all about Fun, Friends, and Adventure.

These are the things which should be making him want to be in Boy Scouts.

In a few years, he'll start to feel the need to start controlling some portion of his world. At that time, Scouting leadership opportunities will help him grow a lot.

No sweat if you're not interested in the camping. Volunteer to assist on the Troop Committee, drive and drop-off on campouts, etc, and you'll be welcome in any troop!

I know Jeff - he's a great guy. His son was in our troop, so I knew him from the dad's point-of-view.

Aloha Council was his first SE job. Previously he had worked mostly on the money side of things. It's sad, but that tends to be the biggest part of SE job, too.

If you've only visited them once, you might go back with or without your son to get to know them better. Don't be pulled aside to get more sales pitch. Spend the time observing closely for any signs of negative attitude and to see what makes them tick. Spend some time chatting with one or two experienced adults to understand their philosophy of delivering the program. Every boy has a personality and every troop has a personality. It's important to find a good match. In fact, I think this is much more important than Web buddies all going to the same troop, unless they all had very similar personalities. If there's a good match, your boys will make new best friends for life in the first few months.

Other questions I would add to the list above include:

- How many of last year's new recruits are still active?

- How many from the year before?

In my study of troops in our area, I've found the larger troops almost always have a higher attrition rate and lose half of their new guys in the first 2 years. My theory is this is related directly to difficulty of feeling like they belong and getting lost in the chaos.

Lots of good ideas and comments!

If attendance is low because someone is scared off, be sure to take lots of pictures, then show a slide show at troop meeting and/or Court of Honor and tell some "war stories" so guys will be determined not to miss the next big event.

Along with a host of other skills, a Super Cub/Web Leader is one who has great organizational skills and a passion for making sure everything is properly prepared, communicated, and executed according to his/her excellent plan.

They go into shock when they move into most boy-run troops where we allow the boys to make mistakes and learn from them. What they see at the meetings and campouts is older boys being inefficient at running things and adults (SM and Staff) who obviously don't care or they would be jumping in to take over. They don't see the behind the scenes PLCs, Troop JLTs, and weekly leadership communication. For some, it takes a long time until they understand it's our goal to grow the boys, not just run efficient activities.

Former Cub leaders have demonstrated their willingness to serve. This alone is a great asset. They have great potential to be excellent Boy Scout leaders, too, but need an intentional transition to move from Cub Methods to Boy Scout Methods. There is still a place for great organizational skills, etc., but it's more behind the scenes supporting summer camp registration, fund-raising, record-keeping, logistics planning, etc. In other words, on the Troop Committee.

Our new adults always start off in the Troop Committee where we get to know each other during their adjustment period. They are encouraged to camp with us, if desired, but we make it clear it's the job of SM and AsstSM's work directly with the boys. In other words, they are not supposed to hang around patrol campsites and should not be telling boy leaders how to do their jobs. Frankly, it's much more difficult to train the parents than the new 11-yr old.