Mike F

Twocubdad,

I didn't see your note before dropping mine.

Come to think of it, when we started with written job descriptions about 10 years ago, we had the guys help develop the job descriptions like you suggested. This helped a lot with the initial understanding and buy-in. Since then, the following leaders have seen it modeled, so it wasn't such a strange concept and we've just been tweaking them since.

rdcrisco,

It is indeed challenging to get the guys thinking in terms of responsibility and accountability when they have never seen these things in action by boys.

You have received lots of good advice.

Another thing to consider is to use the BSA resources and come up with a more concise job description for each position. Put it in writing. As part of the training, work with the boys to make sure they understand exactly what is expected in order to be successful in each position. Have their youth "boss" be part of the discussion to make sure they understand the chain of command (ie., who they are working for and reporting to - PLs report to SPL, etc.). This document spells out the details of each position's responsibilities. After initial training is complete, have the boy holding the position sign this document as a contract for his performance. His immediate "boss" and you (SM) also sign it.

After clearly establishing the responsibilities comes the accountability part.

In the troop I serve, if a leader does not fulfill the responsibilities he agreed to perform, he does not get advancement credit for the term of duty. Let the parents all know this is the plan for teaching them responsibility and accountability (critical life skills) so they aren't too shocked when Johnny doesn't get the advancement credit he was hoping to get for Star/Life/Eagle. (If you get the parents on board, they will help give Johnny a nudge from the home side.)

But don't just leave the guys floundering.

The next step involves care Monitoring by all of the relative bosses in the chain of command and you (with assistance from one or more Asst SMs). SPL should be keeping close tabs on the PLs to make sure they are having patrol meetings and getting their patrols ready for activities. Scribe should be keeping attendance and preparing minutes from PLCs. Instructors should be preparing and leading skill events. Etc.

Lots of Coaching & Mentoring is what makes this successful.

If a boy is not fulfilling his end of the contract, he should get all of the help he needs to be successful, but in the end, it's up to him to show the initiative and get things done.

New leaders often have trouble knowing how to get started. During our training, we work with each one to come up with 2-3 immediate action steps for him to get started. Once they get some inertia (and confidence), things start rolling. The process reminds me of teaching a kid how to ride a bike. At the very beginning, they have no idea how to make it move forward or point it in the right direction and it's very frustrating. We start with simple instruction and keep a firm hand on the bike as they start to learn. With our assistance and encouragement, we're able to avoid really nasty falls. As their skill starts to improve, we relax our grip a little and keep cheering. Before you know it, we let go and they're off on their own.

Send me a Private Message if you'd like a copy of the position contracts we've developed and used successfully for many years.

Hang in there - the program does work!

PLs and Instructors do most of the signing for our guys working up to 1st Class. All of the older guys are expected to help train as part of life in the patrol. If the scout is attending "Trail to First Class" classes at camp, we insist the camp instructor NOT sign the books because we've had too much trouble with mass classes where the scouts didn't really get to individually "demonstrate..., etc." When they get back to camp after class, we can quickly tell what is ready for signoff and what needs more work.

Before conducting a SM Conf, I have a quick chat with the scout's PL and his "boss" if he has a position of responsibility to make sure he's ready to move up. I've been surprised several times. The guys see things we never know about.

SCR,

You're getting it!

If you don't have a culture of good leadership development, it takes time - perhaps years - until it really sinks in. Do what you have to do, but always thinking about how you can pull adults more into the background. For the older boys to effectively teach, they need to have the leadership experience under their belts. And more important, they need to have the respect of the younger guys who want to grow to be leaders like them.

I've found that by the time they are juniors or seniors in high school, the guys want to help teach leadership training because they want to make sure the troop continues to be the troop they knew and loved. It's really powerful when some of the guys in college make the effort to come back and continue to teach.

Of course, you will get some new dynamics with every leadership election/selection. There's always a few stumbles before the next team is as effective as the last and some struggle the whole time, so us adults always need to be adjusting our approach, too. It's kinda like taking them on a trek at Philmont. Our place is at the end of the line - keeping an eye on things and letting them lead. Then about a mile down the wrong trail, quietly suggesting to the crew leader that a map review might be in order.

Sorry, sherm

Didn't mean to step in the fire and flip a burning coal in your lap!

Hal,

The bridge collapse story becomes political when news goes directly into the "failed national bridge inspection program which was underfunded by the xyz administration for the past abc years." Listen to the same story on Fox and MSNBC - it's pretty common to see the spin.

We're becoing a nation of whining scouts always running directly to the SM to fix all of our problems. It would be refreshing to hear the President say, "I don't know - go ask your Governor (Patrol Leader)." As we try to teach the boys in scouts, problems are best worked at the lowest possible level.

desertrat,

Sure - they don't need them for one meeting a week. But I've given up trying to make them do so.

Seems every kid in this area has a cell phone by the time he's in 7th or 8th grade. Kids and parents get used to the electronic leash. Good luck fighting that one.

I've noticed another thing - it seems to be cool not to own a watch, so they're always using the clock on cell phone.

I've had a change of heart in this area over the last few years. After a couple of incidents where patrols were working separate from the troop leadership and they needed help, I now actually encourage PLs to bring their cell phones.

Let me explain the way we handle electronics.

First off, at meetings, we should never see a scout plugged into his iPod. As for cell phones, we teach respectful use. That means ringtone turned off and it stays in your pocket. If there's some reason you need to talk to mom/dad, fine. Girlfriend can wait. If a scout steps out to take a call, someone from leadership will usually step out with him. The scouts know the rules and we rarely have a problem.

On campouts, iPods and other handheld things like games are not encouraged, but may be used in cars on the drive. If they are seen in the campsite, they go home with me and the scout will be coming by my house later for a quick conference. This only happened once and they all got the word. (Frankly, my preference would be to not allow iPods and games even in the cars, but I have bigger things to work on first.)

As I said at the top, PLs and senior leadership are allowed to use cell phones on campouts for communication within the troop if a need arises. The SPL/PLs will often also use them as an alarm clock. If we see it being used for anything other than that, or checking the time, it's mine. I had to give one warning about two years ago and no problems since.

Rather than giving in to the social pressure to use electronics, I like to think of it as using our resources. It would be tragic if a PL needed assistance in a hurry and we had prohibited him from carrying a device he already owned which could make a difference. In a similar vein, we've at times been very happy we had a Blackberry to check weather radar or a portable Ham radio to get broadcast weather reports. I've also been known to carry local Ham repeater frequency information along with the radio in the outback so we have an emergency communication capability outside of cell phone coverage.

Some electronics can be very useful tools. Make the expectations clear and hold them to it.

spitfidgetx,

Welcome to our virtual campfire! I'm sure many more pulling their morning coffee up to the circle soon.

In Boy Scouting, were striving toward eventual independence of the boys. Its sometimes rough getting started. It sounds to me like you were dealing with an out of control discipline issue and meds are not an excuse.

As leaders with challenging conditions like what you just faced, we have to balance two needs: The need for an individual boy to have an opportunity to overcome his challenges and grow versus the need for the overall group to function without undue disruption.

All boys need to adhere to the discipline expectations of the group and parents must understand this is one of the requirements for being part of the group.

Its not fair to either the leaders or the other boys when some are unable to control themselves. The presence of underlying medical problems makes it imperative your SM team has a very frank discussion with the parents to understand exactly what youre dealing with. The parents may have some suggestions about how you can help the boys cope. The youth leadership also needs to understand the basics, because they are really the ones who should be doing the hands-on leadership.

Occasionally we reach the point where it becomes obvious a boy is not a good fit for an individual troop or for Boy Scouting, but its pretty rare that something cant be worked out. In the troop I serve, our patrols do a lot of activities on their own without adults - including camping remotely. Weve had a couple of boys who couldnt handle that, transferred to other troops, and are doing fine.

It sounds like perhaps your troop needs to refresh their internal training to get everyone on board with the chain of command and discipline. Brief example: The Patrol Leader should be the one working the discipline challenges in his patrol. When he needs help, he gets the SPL. When they need more help, they get the SM. The second time the SM has to get involved with an individual scout concerning discipline, he notifies the Troop Committee they are working a challenge and has a talk with the parents. At this point, I would also say that the scout is on probation and any more significant problems within the next 6-months will result in parents getting a call to come and get their son without regard to time or distance.

Having a parent attend all activities and campouts is not a good answer and may be part of the problem if the parent is always working with their own son and he never gets used to working independently within his patrol.

Good luck!

Mafaking,

Here's an idea concerning those patrol meetings.

Boys elect/select leaders, but PLC (with adult leader guidance) can establish some standards for successful completion for rank advancement credit. By the end of our 6-month Troop JLT, I have a signed contract with every leader concerning his responsibilities for his term in office. We expect more initiative and leadership as guys are climbing the ranks and it's all in writing. Guidance and mentoring along the way is crucial.

For Patrol Leaders, one of the requirements is that they conduct at least one patrol meeting every month which is separate from Troop meetings. This can be anything from meeting at a pizza place to an hour of hard-core skill instruction in someone's backyard. It took a while to catch on, but new PLs now know the expectation and it's been working great for the last few years. In the troop I serve, it's not uncommon for the guys to come up short at the end of the term - especially in their first position. That's OK - it's about helping them learn and grow. That's why we're here.

BadenP - I like your thinking! Since I know most leaders attending training won't read it, maybe we should start the training with a few minutes to introduce them to the high points as a way of setting the stage.

I was fortunate to spend some time with Keith Galloway, recently retired Chief of BSA High Adventure, a couple of years ago. He said something which really struck me. To paraphrase, he thought there was too much emphasis on BSA high adventure equating to Philmont, etc. He said the definition of high adventure depended on the boy. To a new Tiger Cub, sitting on a fire engine and blowing the horn is high adventure.

Find any challenging activity and get things started. It's ideal when the guys dig in to do the planning, but keep things moving forward even if they don't. As Buff Skipper is encountering right now, even if your turnout is low, press on. The ones who go will be excited and will help convince the others they don't want to miss the next opportunity. (Hopefully Buff is packing and not reading this!) As they get more mature and confident, you'll find they will start showing more interest in helping make things happen the way they want them to go. It's really cool years later when you hear about them planning and conducting their own personal "high adventure" trips with scout or college buddies.

SR,

I didn't intend to say ignore BSA's program and invent your own. What I meant was use your experience to expand on it and make it more relevant.

I am a unit leader and, like all of us, I have my own flavor which works for the unit I serve.

I am also involved with training at District level. The number one complaint we have from leaders after the training is that it was too high level, not relevant enough, and doesn't help them deal with the realities of the task they face. The training team members are all willing volunteers and work hard, but some of them have little or no experience in unit leadership, hence very little to offer beyond reading the BSA materials. As Kudu points out, these can be vague and confusing when a new SM wants some concrete advice on how to get a PLC to take charge of their program, etc. In our District, its been hit or miss at getting experienced leaders to commit to supporting full training weekends, so were working to develop some extra material with more ideas which leaders have said they need. (Were also working to get experienced leaders who can participate in substantive discussions to assist with just a few hours at a time and this is helping a lot.) This extra material idea is already in place in our Cub Leader training and has been very well received.

Kudu,

You're the PERFECT one to teach the course! Just get through the blather quickly and expand using your own real-life experiences about concepts and methods which can really help them.

Just about anyone could drone on using nothing but the canned materials (thereby sending the course into a coma and making them all vow never to return for more BSA training). You were selected because you have much more to offer.

Yes, it's a pain, but someone's life could very well depend on that Scout's ability to perform CPR or the other first aid hurry cases. Repetition is the key to remembering these critical skills in the heat of an emergency.

We treat the first aid skill requirements from T thru 1st Class as a build-up process. They do them one rank at a time. Nobody is stopping motivated scout from charging forward on his own, but we offer the opportunity to train and sign-off only on their next rank's requirements. I very rarely allow a scout under First Class to take the First Aid MB. I want him to have digested the smaller bites before he takes the final MB class which might provide him his only tools as he comes around a corner to the scene of an accident later.

As for the other MBs with CPR requirement, we'll only allow other CPR training to count if it was a fairly recent certified Red Cross course. We're fortunate that our District has a good number of willing trainers.

Gutterbird,

As part of my parent volunteer training, I make it crystal clear we don't have any parents on campouts - just scout leaders who are equally there for all the boys. To make sure they get the point, I tell them the objective is that a casual observer is unable to determine which boy goes with each adult. There may be a transition phase for some scouts with special needs, but the objective is as you state - to teach them independence. If there are special needs, simply educate the PL and other youth leaders so they are better able to do their job of helping each scout succeed. Ive found once the boys understand the special needs, they are very compassionate in working with him. But a parent who is always in their business drives them bananas.

Good discussion.

We would never allow a parent into a patrol's site to help with anything, other than correcting a time-critical safety problem.

Our guys don't tolerate things like a member frequently departing early or otherwise shirking his share of responsibility. At first, the feedback is clear and direct. When a scout continues to defy the norms of the group, the other members naturally begin to pull away from him. When I get the inevitable phone call from upset parent that "the guys aren't being nice to Hubert" or "why didn't Hubert get selected for a POR which he needs for his next rank" or "elected into the OA," I explain that the guys tend to befriend or elect/select the scouts who they know they can count on to be there helping get things done.

Good luck!

We let the guys decide. Younger ones almost always decide to tent with buddy. Many older ones bring their own. Patrols all set up in tight groups. If backpacking, they automatically economize and group up more.

We actually have the opposite extreme, too. One patrol has been using a huge family tent for whole patrol and they love it. They know they will lose the privilege if it ever gets out of control or becomes a problem.

Its pretty common for them to sleep under the stars when bugs/weather permits, but they have learned to have some sort of shelter readily available.

The rationale we were given at Philmont for not sleeping under the stars or in bivey sacks was that those looked too much like a log which bear could be inclined to roll over in search of bugs.

If our guys ever wake up a buddy to take a walk to latrine (or bush/tree/rock) at the edge of the campsite outside of bear/cougar country, Ive never heard about it.

I just got back and again strongly recommend military style jungle boots. Saw several people on the trail with wet suit boots and even sandals - they were hurting.

A few years ago, some of my guys used Brazos Brand jungle boots from local discount sports store, Academy. They were terrible and started coming apart within days. By the end of the trip, almost all were held together with duct tape. Early this summer, I spoke to the department manager and he assured me their product had been improved to really withstand the constantly-wet, rugged conditions you would expect a jungle boot to withstand. 15 of our 17 trekkers used the Brazos boots and we had absolutely no problems on a 10-day trek. You can't beat them for just $20.

http://www.academy.com/index.php?page=content&target=products/footwear/mens/service&start=8&selectedSKU=0548-02157-6030(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Irsap,

Eagle 90 has a very valid point, so consider local demographics carefully. Starting a new troop is a tremendous (and rewarding) challenge. I believe you need to get a minimum of 5 scouts in order to charter the new troop. Don't just look to your Den. I'll bet all of those boys have buddies in school, sports, and neighborhood who would be interested in some camping and adventure.

You're fortunate you have some time to get prepared. Jumping into the training is a very good thing, but will leave you a little short on real understanding. (No offense to the training teams out there - I am one.)

In addition to the training, get copies of the Boy Scout, SPL, PL, SM, and Troop Committee handbooks and start studying them. I recommend talking to your DE and see if he can find a local SM to shadow for a while. The more you can observe in action, the more prepared you'll be. Do everything they'll let you do. Sit in the back and observe meetings, attend Patrol Leaders Council and troop junior leader training, visit a campout (I wouldn't push it by camping with them), visit Troop Committee meetings, attend the Boy Scout side of monthly Roundtables, etc. If there are any District Boy Scouting events (camporees, Klondike derbys, etc.), by all means, go check them out. Maybe even volunteer to help out on the staff - they're always looking for help. Be careful not to step on toes - you're there to listen and learn.

Hopefully some of the other parents in your group (or new Charter Org) share your interest in starting up the new troop, because you're going to need help. Get them involved early.

Good luck! Let us know how things go!

Common concern.

We're not supposed to re-test within SM Conf or BoR, but nothing prevents you from spot-checking to make sure your junior leaders are doing their job. Let the older scouts know you will be checking to make sure the guys they sign off know their stuff and you will hold them (the older scouts) responsible if they don't. Then look out that they don't go overboard and make it nearly impossible for the younger guys to advance.

Skill refreshers benefit everyone. Work within PLC to come up with lists of skills everyone needs to own, then figure out how to accomplish.

For this one, have Instructors give quick demo on whipping at a meeting and let all the guys tackle a frayed rope. Let them know there will be a whipping relay at the next troop meeting, then have a reward for the winners. After that, make sure there are a couple of packages of waxed dental tape (thick floss) in the rope bucket and pull it out immediately when a rope needs attention.

Use campouts to put the skills to work in activities and projects. Having trouble cutting that firewood? Here's a file and some gloves. Let me show you how much easier this can be with a few minutes of sharpening. Etc.

You can create a culture where they take pride in knowing the skills and are ready to demontrate them.

Another idea is to have Scribe be responsible for taking notes throughout entire troop meeting concerning things which need to be remembered. For instance, final popcorn orders due in to Mrs. B next week, remember to bring your compass and a flashlight next week, campout is coming up in two weekends and patrols need to work on menus, etc. Just before closing and SM Minute, have the scribe give a very quick summary of all the meeting's announcements. This gives him some exposure speaking to the troop and ensures he has a good start on the email he sends out with all the announcements within a few days.

stevo,

You're doing fine and have a lot on the ball for a 15yo SPL.

One of the things I've heard for many years when the guys get to be about your age is a remorse that the troop has changed because we don't have the cool older guys around any more. I tell them to take a good look at those goofy junior guys. A few years ago you were one of them. Now go look in the mirror. To those guys, YOU are one of the cool older guys they'll be talking about for the rest of their lives.

Have fun - be outrageous - keep things stirred up a bit.

Try something different with PLC. Instead of holding meetings in a boring room, consider meeting at a pizza place. Maybe a PLC campout would help get them and the rest of your staff working together better.

Discipline. The best way to approach this is within the PLC. If you can get them to agree troop discipline isnt where it needs to be, you can work together to fix it. It doesnt do any good for you (or your SM) to stand up front and talk if your entire leadership team isnt engaged. One idea for troop formations is for each PL to have his biggest, most senior guy, standing at the other end of the patrol from you. If anyone acts up, his job is to fix it.

Talk to your SM about your concerns. Go easy on criticizing new adults directly, but talk about how to step up the expectations for the troop and reducing adult interference. Also talk to him about your concerns and ideas for improving discipline before you engage the PLC. If necessary, have him standing nearby when you begin to take steps to improve so theres no question you have his full support. As things take hold, he can move to the back of the room or all the way out of the room.

Left to their own whims, activities with boys of scouting age tend to decay to chaos. Your challenge as a leader is to get them to see a different vision where - through discipline - you get the work done, then have time for some real scouting fun.

Keep up the great work!

Golden Spoon - awarded to patrol which demonstrates the best cooking skills on each campout. The winner gets to hang the spoon on their patrol flag until it changes hands at end of the next campout.

For special achievements, like winning big patrol competitions, they receive a permenent totem (right now, a feather) for their patrol flag.

I've found our most effective adult training takes place on Saturday night of a campout over a last cup (or 2) of coffee after the guys have gone to sleep in their remote campsites. When things have finally calmed down, there's time to discuss everything that has transpired over the weekend in terms of leadership development, objectives, philosophies, etc. I lead structured discussions like this on almost every campout. The older, active leaders participate energetically and the newly crossed-over parents mostly listen, but get a new appreciation for what it's all about.

BA,

I've helped guide the process of standing up new patrols several times over the years.

As kenk recommended, I'd start with selection of SPL and ASPL. At that point, you have 9 experienced scouts still in patrols. Hold off on PL elections unless they've just been elected/selected for SPL/ASPL.

Then it's time to have a chat with your PLC about your path forward.

Since your 2 patrols (at least prior to crossover) will be pretty light with only 4-5 members, I don't think I'd use NSP and would plan to start new guys into existing patrols at crossover.

Talk to the guys about options to stand up new patrol. My preference would be to transfer existing members into new patrol so you have 3 experienced guys in each with the significant challenge of getting ready to break in the new guys ASAP. I don't have my SM Handbook with me, but I know it has (or had in recent version) some words about making sure each new patrol has some obvious leadership material. (The patrol will still elect their leader, but SM has responsibility to make sure the patrol is set up to succeed.)

After patrols of existing members are established, I'd have PL elections immediately -- before crossover. At this point, the new guys will know the structure of the group they're joining and they'll have some time to become acclimated to Boy Scouts before participating in their first election later.

Your transition over the next few months will be critical. The new leaders and young patrols will need more coaching and monitoring.

Consider talking to your existing older guys about inviting other buddies to join your troop, too. I'll bet they know guys who are in the process of dropping out of another troop and would flourish in your environment. Or maybe they have a friend who has never been in scouts, but is interested in joining the fun he's hearing about from your scout. Put out the word through parents, too. We were in a slump a few years ago due to poor recruiting and were about your size, although we had a full spread of ages. As we recruited new crossovers, we also transferred in (and recruited) a number of older guys to fill out the ranks.

Good luck!