Mike F

Our success rate is about 95%.

The only "failure" I recall in recent memory was about 2 years ago.

To paraphrase from the BOR guidelines, the purpose of the BOR is for members of the TC to ensure that all requirements have been met.

When questioning a scout about what he had accomplished as Troop Librarian, his reply was "nothing." More questions revealed the fact that he had never so much as opened up our library cabinet to take a look at it, much less take any action whatsoever. More questions revealed that he had never been trained or received guidance about what he was supposed to do. The scout admitted he hadn't made any effort and agreed shouldn't be advanced at the time.

This whole episode was a clear failure of the troop's leadership development program run by the SM.

The BOR chair had a long chat with SM to discuss the problem. Within a few weeks, adults and jr leaders all on track to make sure this didn't happen again. Scout in question has been very successful in multiple PORs since that time, has grown in confidence and skill, and is well on his way to finishing up all of his requirements for Eagle in the next few months.

-mike

Roger,

Are you still hoping for more books?

-mike

Hillis,

Get copy of the BSA Fieldbook and study Chapter 1. It's excellent!

Heed Trevorum's advice. I have led a lot of high adventure trips through the years and consider them to be about the best that Scouting has to offer. My observations have led me to believe that a successful crew is based about 30% on skill and 70% on effective teamwork. Teamwork is certainly built camping, but you can also have some fun and build friendships just doing things like all meeting for pizza together, going out to a movie, or having an X-Box marathon competition sleepover. (Never thought I would admit to the value of Nintardo and it's ilk. Don't tell my boys. Nevermind - they'd never believe I said it anyway.) But camping together on shakedown activities is the most important of all. Get them used to working together with you as the leader. And get your adult advisors used to hiking at the back and letting you lead!

To quote one of my favorite leaders, Gen Norman Schwarzkopf, commander of the US Central Command during Operation Desert Storm (1st Gulf War), "When put in charge -- Take Charge!"

You have a great attitude and you are all going to have a GREAT time!

Keep us informed on your progress and tell us about it when you get back!!

-mike

Dang - poor planning - I'll be at Enchanted Rock climbing that weekend. Our troop is locked into that date due to schedule with Venture Crew that specializes in climbing and could only support that weekend.

We've been up to that area twice in the last few months (Dec & Jan) at Bastrop State Park for orienteering. It's great!

Too bad about sched issue - I would really like to meet some of you guys (or is it gals?)!

I used a bag rated at 20-deg a couple of years ago and was so warm that I unzipped the foot vent every night on the trail. The coldest I got was at Base Camp! I know this doesn't make sense, because every night on the trail was at higher elevation, but it was true on first and last days. I slept in clothes reserved for sleeping only to eliminate potential for food smells. I also stashed a warm pair of synthetic socks in my bag for wear only at night. In case of cold, I had a poly-pro hood and silk liner in my stuff sack for tent use, but pulled them out. Since I tend to sleep cold, I'll carry them again next time - just in case.

-mike

When is it?

Semper,

Thanks! I needed that after a camping trip that missed the mark this weekend...

Make it a great week!!

-mike

It's been a few years since I researched this, but recall that simple foam pads were the lightest. But also bulky.

I went with new Therma-a-Rest ProLite 4 Regular and loved it. Packs into tiny package that fit inside my pack. I've used a 3/4 pad and didn't like it. Feet got cold. Never did manage to get the right stuff under my calves/feet to prevent it on that trip. Now it's always full-length.

(Note: For long-term storage of these self-inflating pads, open the valve, let them inflate, and slide under your bed. That keeps them used to being inflated and spread out. Internal foam will stay permanently crushed if you store it that way.)

Have fun!

EagleInKY,

Interesting point I hadn't considered.

Thanks!

-mike

Neither of the two troops I actively serve uses NSP.

One troop is very large - over 100. They used to use NSPs and found retention went up after immediately integrating them into existing patrols starting about 3 years ago.

The other smaller troop (~20) has never used NSPs and has what Beavah referred to as a great ethic of older boys lookin' out for and takin' care of the younger guys. Retention in that troop has been 100% for the last 3 year groups - simply amazing. I think it's because the older guys really do understand the future of the troop depends on those guys, so they take care of them like little brothers.

We don't use Troop Guides, since no NSP. Instead, we make more extensive use of Instructors. At last night's PLC, one major business matter was looking over the younger guy's advancement records (which each PL keeps in his notebook) to determine what we could help them accomplish on campout this weekend. PLs will be handling some within the patrols. Instructors will be setting up and conducting a couple of classes on Sat afternoon. We do have an ASM that monitors and coaches this process. Seems to be working well.

Cautionary note: When Troop 1 moved from single-age patrols to mixed-age patrols, it took a lot of effort to help shift the older boy's attitudes. In the meantime, ASMs stayed very involved to keep the guys moving forward. After a year or so, the guys were taking ownership and it took off. Now they're scheduling patrol meetings on their own to work on their guy's advancement for things they don't get done at meetings or campouts. It's really exciting to watch!

Since this is all contrary to BSA's recommendations, this may not work best for you and your mix of scouts and adults. In other words, your milage may vary. But it's working well for us and I'm glad.

Ronvo - you might have a meeting with your existing active scouts to talk about this. Discuss some of the pros/cons. Get their feelings about it all. Are they willing to take on some brand new green guys so their patrol would grow immediately or would they rather be left alone, letting a Troop Guide take care of them? After the group discussion, let the PLC decide. (Give them input and ownership.)

Good luck!

-mike

One exception to what I just posted about adults always cooking for themselves:

About once a year - usually during some really cold weather - we'll send the guys out with full gear after dinner on Saturday night with instructions on how to find their next campsite (compass course, GPS coordinates, etc.). The guys will do a little night navigation and set up a new camp on their own. (We check in on them - discretely.) When they come hiking back into base camp in the morning, we'll have our special Mountain Man breakfast waiting. Eggs, sausage, tater tots, & cheese all baked up in a Dutch oven. French toast, cocoa, etc. And a big pot of coffee of us, of course!

Our adults always cook for ourselves. As others have said, we usually try to eat really well as an example for the guys.

The SPL and ASPL also will start eating with the adults on the campout this weekend. In the past, we've always had them eat with their old patrol, but are now making the change for several reasons:

1. As SPL and ASPL, they are not members of a patrol.

2. We've noticed that Patrol Leaders have a hard time clearly remaining in charge of their patrol when SPL/ASPL step back into the mix for meals.

3. Meals with SPL/ASPL and SM, etc. will allow for more adult interaction with the boy leaders.

We'll see how it goes.

For the last few months, we've been awarding a Golden Spoon award that's displayed on patrol flag after every event where we cook. Patrols are working hard to earn that award and we haven't seen a hot dog since it started.

I serve two troops. Neither puts much effort into fund-raising and they both divy up differently.

Troop 1.

Scout keeps 40-50% in personal "Scout Bucks" account, which is tracked by troop treasurer. This can be used to pay dues, recharter, summer camp, high-adventure, etc. In theory, a scout can use to funds to be reimbursed for purchase of uniforms, camping equipment, etc., but I don't think it's ever been done. If a scout leaves scouting, the Scout Bucks account is erased and the funds stay in troop account. If he is transferring to another troop and they have a similar account, we'll cut the other troop a check for his outstanding Scout Bucks balance. (I don't think this has ever been done, either. Just not enough $ in accounts to worry about it.)

Troop 1 has also run some special fund-raising activities for boys in high-adventure program where they were allowed to keep all profits and apply to upcoming expenses. This was worked to support several hardship cases, was approved by Troop Committee, and clearly explained to all.

Troop 2.

Scout keeps 100% of profits in personal account - troop gets nothing. I don't know the details of their program, but it doesn't sound like anything is written down. I'm working with them to change this. It caused a bit of confusion recently when new scout jumped on popcorn sales with gusto. (Note: I don't think this is a reasonable way to run program, but that's their choice.)

Personal thoughts:

- There's a lot of leeway in how you divvy up. Allowing scout to keep control of some portion is good way to encourage participation.

- Purpose for calling the accounts "Scout Bucks" is to emphasize that the actual green dollars belong to the troop, but they will allow the scout to use the credit for scouting-related expenses. If you didnt make this stipulation, scout (or parents) could demand cash to buy X-Box games, etc.

- Essential to put everything in writing and make sure every scout/parent knows exactly how the system works. If you want to allow different rules (percentages) for special fundraisers for activities (like High Adventure), then get that in writing, too. There will always be someone who argues about the fairness of some detail. Dont worry about it too much. Just write it down, publicize it, and apply it uniformly and fairly.

- As part of your start-up process, you might distribute draft plan to all families and give them a few weeks to provide comments. This might diffuse some of the potential for future disputes.

Good luck!

-mike

I agree with the others - let them know when you're coming the first time. yes - this means you'll probably spend more time getting their "sales pitch," than observing scouts in action, but that's OK. If they look interesting, ask if you can come back again to just observe or participate as events allow.

I didn't do this with my first son and wish I had. The sales pitch was slick - we didn't visit again - joined - and within months, my son wanted to drop out. Fortunately I was able to convince my son to go check out some other troops and we found a good fit for him.

When I started visiting with my next son, we visited a troop that didn't have a sales pitch at all. They just placed him in a patrol for the evening and he did everything they did. They made him feel like part of the gang from Day 1 and he insisted on starting to attend all meetings before officially crossing over. The bad news was this was a different troop than #1 son, but the dual troop days are over after 4 years. (At least they met on different nights!)

By all means - check them out completely! Visit lots. Visit campouts - even if you only drive out for the day. Observe the boys and adults in action.

Another benefit to starting as WebI - it helps the boys see some of the stuff they have to look forward to before they get burned out of scouts. I can practically guarantee that early interaction will increase your cross-over rate into Boy Scouts.

Enjoy the ride!

-mike

Yes - get the boots!

Also consider replacing the generally inadequate insole with a tougher one - I'm a believer in one called "Superfeet." It adds more support and protection against the hard rocks that others have mentioned.

And wear them a LOT before hitting the trail. You're not just breaking in the boots - you're getting your feet used to wearing them. Even the best boots are likely to rub you somewhere. By wearing them a lot in the weeks and months before you go, you'll toughen up your feet.

I read a great story about an Appalachian Trail through-hiker who blew out his boots on the trail, limped into nearest town, and was astonished at these amazing new boots that didnt give him any blisters even when they were brand new. The season ended, he went back to school, and resumed the AT the following summer with his wonder boots. Which now gave him terrible blisters. The difference? Although the boots were well broken in by hiking a few hundred miles, his feet had gone soft in the down time.

You're going to have a great time!!!

-mike

We did something similar a couple of years ago.

Permanent Crew Leader and Asst Crew Leader. These guys functioned similar to Patrol Leader and Asst for all crew activities starting many months ahead during shakedown and all preparation activities. Crew Leader was crucial in pulling the team together before we hit the trail.

Crew Leader assigned permanent duties which were accomplished as soon as we arrived in the campsite every day.

Dining fly - 4 guys

Bear bags - 2 guys

Water boys - 3 guys (gather, fill, treat if required all empty water bottles and dromedary bags for dinner prep)

By sticking to the same jobs for these set-up tasks, everything was well organized and done in minutes.

We rotated Cook and Asst Cook every day. Note that tomorrow's cooks started their job the evening before when they would find and organize the next day's meals. (To minimize later time hunting through multiple bags for food, we used our own color-coded and labeled stuff sacks.) Cooks also did clean-up, but were free to enlist anyone standing around.

We also rotated Navi-guesser and Asst every day. Their job also started the evening before when they would study the maps with Crew Leader to get ready. Before we hit the trail every morning, they would give us a quick trail briefing. Something along the lines of "Today we're going to travel a total of 9.5 miles with about 3000 feet of vertical descent and 4000 feet of serious climbing. Hardest stretch will be between x and y later this morning. We plan to stop at Miranda for black powder shooting before pressing on to Baldy Town for the night. It looks like water will be scarce for the first few hours today, so everyone be sure to leave camp with full bottles."

We didn't have a separate Chaplain's Aide, because Crew Leader had prepared a Bible study which he led every evening.

The adults didn't learn about it until our first night on the trail, but the Crew Leader had also assigned a Pokermaster position. That scout's job was to carry a big bag of plastic chips/cards and to set up the nightly poker tournament. My first reaction was to make them trash the chips, but I resisted and was glad I did. Chips were just to establish winner's bragging rights and the games made our camp a gathering point for surrounding crews and leaders. We all made a lot of new friends on the trail.

It was amazing to watch the team working in action.

With or without the chips, you're going to have a great time!!

-mike

Barry,

You have an incredible gift!!

Your insights and clarity of thought are an inspiration.

3 Cheers!!!

-mike

First critical timing is SM Conference, which must be completed before 18th birthday. (My #1 son was very active all the way through, but intentionally slid in with 3 hours to spare.)

SM Conference cannot be accomplished until Project (Req #5) is completed - including the workbook with all required signatures. Workbook is part of the project.

(In theory, some might argue that nothing says the SM Conf must wait until all other requirements are complete. Instead of splitting hairs, just think of it as all "requirements", except the BoR, must be completed before the clock strikes midnight. Project, including approved workbook, is Req #5. SM Conf is Req #6.)

Second critical timing is Board of Review. BoR must be completed within 90 days (or maybe 60 - I don't have reference in front of me) of the SM Conf. This gives scout and system more than enough time to collect reference letters and schedule the board. This is the only requirement which does not have to be completed prior to 18th birthday and this is because the letters and BoR schedule are not all within direct control of the scout.

Two comments:

As I just said in another thread, there's no such thing as a scout "needing" a POR. He may want one for rank advancement, but that's not a fundamental need or right. He has to earn it. How? By being active in the game. By stepping up to serve whenever the need arises. By showing other scouts he is responsible and can be depended upon. This can't be placed all neat on a timeline - each scout will get the opportunity when he's ready.

As Kudu said, I think BSA's recommended 6-month term of office is primarily to keep churning leadership opportunities for advancement. One of the troops I serve is very large and SPL is an incredibly challenging position. A few years ago, they shifted election cycle to Winter/Summer. SM was considering moving it back to previous Spring/Fall timing. When SM broached the subject with current SPL as a possible discussion topic for PLC in December, the SPL exclaimed, "That would be great! I'd love to do this job for another few months - I'm just getting the hang of it."

-mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

CNY,

It sounds like you're right on target - the adult leadership has low expectations and the boys live up to them.

Kids today are busy and seem to have more opportunities & demands on their time. So they learn at a young age how to prioritize. About a month ago, the mother of two of our junior leaders (ASPL and PL) tried to explain to me that her boys wouldn't be able to attend our troop junior leader training weekend because their Jr ROTC commander had rescheduled a leadership class for the same Saturday. I volunteered to call their commander to explain we had set our date to avoid his original plans, the boys also had a leadership commitment with us, and would be missing out of critical training for their jobs and about 15 hours of intensive leadership training. The boys were there for T-JLT.

If you don't expect much effort, that's what you'll get. Your biggest challenge is getting the SM and other influential adults to understand this simple fact.

How about starting off with something simple, like letting the scouts take care of their own food? They might need some help in planning a menu and figuring out what they need, but it will only take a time or two before you don't have to do this again.

Do you have some other troops in the area who seem to have a better grasp of this "boy-led" stuff? You might find it very instructive to go visit a few troop meetings and talk to the leaders - scout and adult. I suggest this because it can be hard to convince your gang that these "radical" ideas they've never tried before really work. If you can find a local example, your gang can see with their own eyes that boys right there in your area really can do much more. Once you open some doors, I'll bet you could convince the other troop's SM, SPL, and some other leaders to support a training workshop with your leaders. This local example and cross-flow of ideas could help jump-start your rebuilding process.

One other thought I used at the beginning of our recent T-JLT:

At the beginning on Fri evening, I asked all the guys to think about what they wanted to accomplish in their lives over the next 40 years. Some offered to share them.

Then I asked what scouting could do to help prepare them for this future. The list they generated was impressive, with leadership, skills, confidence, and communication ability near the top. I kept this list posted on the wall for the rest of the Fri/Sat workshop. As we moved through generating list of goals for the troop and started outlining plans to make these things happen, I kept pointing back at the "preparing for my future" list to show them how their work TODAY and for the next 6 months of their term was really preparing them for their future. The concept seemed to really click for about 2/3 of them and they are showing some impressive initiative.

Good luck!

-mike

Wow - this thread kinda blows my mind.

I was lost right from the beginning with the statement "...scouts that need a position of responsibility..." and downright disgusted later with description of signoffs for merely wearing a badge of office.

There's no such thing as scout who "needs" a POR. He needs water, food, love, and shelter. He (or his parents) might "desire" for him to have a POR to fulfill a requirement for rank advancement, but nobody should confuse that with a need. He'll earn it through election or appointment when he's ready. Adults never make it better when we mess with the program - no matter how good the intentions.

As for Eagles holding leadership positions - congratulations! That's a good sign of a very healthy troop and program. The scouts holding leadership positions are supposed to be the best available who are both willing and able to do the job. If Eagles continue to learn, grow, and serve their troop, they are to be commended for staying in the game (and not just filling the "Eagle" square on their college application and checking out). This will eventually be self-limiting as the Eagles (and all of the oldest group of scouts) will migrate to cars, girls, jobs, sports, college, etc.

Anyone who signs off a scout for a leadership position when the scout hasnt done the job is doing the scout, his unit, and all of scouting an incredible disservice. This has resulted in some of the ugliest tangled messes Ive seen recently in scouting. Boy was signed off with little or no effort for the Star/Life rank requirements. As a result, he didnt learn the leadership and organizational skills associated with the junior positions and didnt earn the respect of the other scouts. Later as a 16-yr old with SM intervention, the inexperienced young man was pushed into SPL so he could complete Eagle. It was a disaster. Scout was totally unprepared hadnt learned the small lessons at PL and Jr Staff level. There was soon open rebellion and chaos. Well-intentioned SM tried to help, but ineffective. Boy quit scouts. Parents mad at everyone. Plenty of guilt to go around

Follow the program its the only thing that will keep the boys on track, on their schedule. And keep you the adult leaders and parents out of trouble. Elect/select per the book. Start training at lowest levels (Asst PL, etc.) before they count for rank so guys can start to learn concepts early. Train, coach, cajole, encourage, and celebrate victories. Never do for a boy what a boy can do for himself.

-mike

There is no rank requirement established by Philmont, but many troops will require all high-adventure participants to be at least First Class and maybe to already have earned some applicable merit badges (Camping, Canoeing, and First Aid come to mind).

Good luck getting into Philmont. The slots for 2007 have already been handed out. Lottery takes place in the Fall for treks over 1.5 years in the future due to huge demand.

Don't sweat it too much. In addition to troop treks, there are also options to a trek through your local council or to join in with another group that has openings. (Usually at the last minute when someone drops out. If your son is active, gets lots of experience camping with his troop, and is in good shape, the opportunity will come up. There are also Order of the Arrow treks, etc.

Enjoy the ride!

I took 3 crews to Philmont in 2004.

I'm not sure if it was a hard "requirement" that couldn't be waived, but it was explained to us that small single person tents were not allowed. Since we weren't planning to use any, I didn't soak in all the details, but recall it was described as a safety issue. Seems the really small 1-person tents look too much like a log that might reward a hungry bear with grubs if he rolled it over in the middle of the night.

I'm certain that buddy system was not discussed as part of the rationale.

We had one adult sleep solo in a tent, but it was a 2-person tent and always set up right next to the other adult tent with two. By coincidence, our solo adult had the same tent used by our ranger.

Check your Philmont Advisor's Guide for latest info. If you don't have it, you'll be getting it soon.

While we're talking tents at Philmont, our guys used mostly privately-owned tents, but several elected to use Philmont tents. They were a little slow going up the first day, but the guys were very happy with them.

Regardless of tents, you're going to have a great time!

-mike

Good discussion!

I'm a big believer in socks. For cold weather camping, I stuff a big, thick pair of SmartWool socks in with my bag. The only time I wear them is at night.

I also pack a polypro hood in the bag. It weighs nothing at all and makes a huge difference. I prefer not to cinch the hood tight around my face.

When the weather's really cold, one of the tricks I use is to pull a dry shirt or sweater into the bag and place it across my body - forming an air dam to keep warm air in and cold drafts out. Again, this allows me to keep the top of the bag a little bit open to allow more movement.

As for body fuel (calories), a Snickers bar or two are great. Clif Bars, too. Your body needs the calories to keep your heat up.

Some friends swear by filling a Nalgene bottle with hot water and sliding it into the bag just before climbing in for the night.

Speaking of bottles, you loose a ton of heat when nature drags you out of the bag in the middle of the night. When it's really going to be a cold or wet night, I take a pee bottle to bed. Sorry ladies, but this technique is discriminatory - definitely easier for the guys. I won't go into any more details, but find a Gatorade bottle (that can never be mistaken for a Nalgene drinking bottle) very useful. Takes some getting used to, but worth it!

Here's to toasty toes!

-mike

I'm sure he wishes he had just dropped the knife. There's a lot of mass behind that skinny blade on a Leatherman - that's what made the difference.

And roger that on the Bermuda triangle!(This message has been edited by Mike F)