Mike F

Story and video interview are located here:

http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_356200328.html

That's one lucky scout!

fling,

I was alluding to your point in my first post, but you spelled it out perfectly. Its not the word of one member of that staff that matters even if he is a priest. Its up to the COR and IH because they are the ones that have to make these decisions for the unit they sponsor.

-mike

Lisabob,

The BOR is a perfect time to bring this up. One of the purposes of BOR is for troop committee members to do a "sanity or status check" of the program functions in the troop. I agree with recommendation to put some thought into how to phrase it, but don't sweat it too much. He's an 11-yr old - just let the board know that this "tradition" is a major pain from the new guy point of view and it's not clear how this builds scout skills, discipline, or anything else. Then follow up with recommendation about camping by patrols like it talks about in his Boy Scout Handbook. (Then open the book and point to the page.)

This will be a great growth opportunity for your son. It's a major maturation step when kids can tell adults (with logic and respect) how something is not going right and needs to be changed. Even if they don't change their ways right away, he will gain confidence from stepping up and speaking out.

Let us know how it goes!

-mike

ES316,

At great risk of incurring wrath, please consider the possibility that it wasn't God that placed this opportunity before you to help solve a cash flow problem. Perhaps it was Satan working through greed to lure you in.

Pray hard, my young friend, and listen to the still small voice. You may hear two of them. Dont listen to the one talking about money because that one is appealing to your natural human greed. Listen to the one talking about right/wrong or good/evil.

It's always better to do the right thing - even when it comes at personal cost.

I wont bug you on this again, but I will be praying for you.

-m

Sorry, ES316, but my opinion is to stay clear.

I agree with SR540B - if you work there and take their money, it's impossible to be convincing when you say you don't condone. If you really don't condone, stay clear.

Similar examples:

There are legal brothels in Nevada. Could one really bartend there and ignore what's going on down the hall?

There are legal abortion clinics all over the county. Would it be OK to support the business working as a receptionist and ignore what's going on down that hall?

As a practical matter, you could find yourself in hot water with your troop's charter org. One of the troops I used to serve was sponsored by local Catholic Church. There was a major uproar when they discovered one of our female registered leaders had gone back to working in the "adult entertainment" business. Perfectly legal, but definitely unwholesome and not something they wanted their church to be associated with.

In this day, with occasional sad stories of sick abuse within scouting, I encourage you not to provide ammunition which might be used to hurt you, your unit, your charter org, and, indeed, all of us. All it takes is one strange incident or situation in the troop and the spotlight shines first on you. And the press will be listening eagerly for the 10 o'clock sound bite.

In your heart, you know there's something not right with this situation. Listen to the voice and stick to the high road. HE will provide. Even if His way means you will take longer to pay off those student loans. At least you'll do it with your head high and a clear conscience.

-mike

scoutldr,

Some good points. I know OA does some things which support local camps (which indirectly supports troops) and we do a lot of Webelos Arrow of Light ceremonies (for packs).

Let's just say you were trying to convince a Scoutmaster that OA was a valuable thing for his guys to be actively involved in. How would you convince him that they will be bringing more back to their troop than they (the troop) might potentially lose (when seasoned leaders get more active in OA activities - sometimes causing them to be less active in the troop)?

The "WTGC Guide" is valuable, but really the product of a small group - typically not youth members.

Camping promotion video and website - again, youth don't do much of this. And not really required because most units either already camp or will not be influenced to decide to start by a video and website. Same goes for unit visitations.

As for staffing courses, is this really an OA-led activity, or just one that uses older, experienced guys that happen to be in the OA?

Dance teams can be good outreach, for the few OA members that participate in them. Our dance teams here don't go to unit events (CoH or cross-overs). The only time we see them is during OA events, so they give the appearance of being fun, but self-serving. There is an Indian dance Venture Crew with a lot of members who are in OA, but their activities are Crew, not OA.

I don't have any idea what you mean by "Conduct inspections of cub camping locations."

Phrasing it a bit differently, what do OA youth members bring back of service/support to their home unit?

I don't mean to be difficult - just trying to get some clear ideas. I believe they are out there, but I'm having trouble clarifying them well enough to effectively communicate.

Thanks!

-mike

Many moons ago, I was very active in a small lodge and was awarded Vigil as a youth. Now that I'm active in a different mega-lodge with my sons, I'm struggling to reconcile the great memories I have with the realities of what I see today. (I'll save the prolonged discussion about how to tame the mega-lodge for the future.)

I'm trying to help our Chapter Advisor figure out how to encourage the troops in our area to get more active, but there's a nagging question.

According to the OA handbook, the primary purpose of the OA is service/support to the units.

Can you cite some examples of true service to the units (troops, crews)?

Just noting that your troop youth leadership are all OA members doesn't count, because I would argue they would probably be the leaders without the patch on their flap.

What difference does your local lodge or chapter have on your unit?

Let's start the discussion with things you see that are working.

Later we can move over to ideas on what we can do better.

Thanks!

-mike(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Happy Anniversary, SP!

A few months ago we celebrated 25 yrs by evacuating for a hurricane. That's one bonding experience we won't forget!

My bride has served as GS leader and Den leader for #1 of 3 sons, but that was a lot of years ago and I haven't been able to get her active since.

My scouting has been the subject of some rather unpleasant (but not undeserved) discussions through the years.

Can you imagine the gall - when our 2nd child was born, she wanted me to resign my position as an AsstSM? Seems she had a problem with me going camping with other people's kids while she was stuck at home with 2 of ours! OK - she has a point - I put it on hold for a few years until I could claim I'm doing it for the benefit of our kids.

She still doesn't exactly encourage me to take on new projects or go on every campout, but she has seen and appreciates the difference Scouting has clearly made in our boys' lives. (Sorry - I can't make the same claim for daughter's experience in GS. I'll probably be paying for therapy in years ahead because I didn't put the same amount of effort into helping make that program run better.)

I came from a scouting family - parents and younger brothers all very active. My wife came from a sporting family where, if you're not playing or coaching, you're expected to be on the sidelines for every practice and game. I try to do both and it doesn't always work well at all.

I guess I have to say scouting is not a positive influence in my marriage, but it is a positive influence for my family as a whole.

To borrow a line from Barry,

I love this scouting stuff (even if she doesn't)!

-mike

Orennoah,

I'm not an attorney - nor do I play one on TV - but I'm intrigued by the unique perspective you bring to this discussion. Most of us know less about this than we probably should. And many of us (my son's troop included) are working through a change in CO due to forces outside of our control, so established relationships affecting donations, etc., have to be reworked. Problem is, most of them were established before we got here, so we don't know how to get started.

I would consider it a great service if you could spell out the process, regulations, and paperwork required to establish a formal "Friends & Parents" organization. I understand we'll need to seek local legal help, but a blueprint would help us embark on that daunting task with more confidence.

This would need more access than a simple reply on this forum to be really useful. Maybe there's a place on Scouter.com or maybe BSA legal site (http://www.bsalegal.org).

Just a thought.

Thanks!

-mike

Here's another vote for Master and Commander.

For ideas on scouting discussion to go along with it, check out:

http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm

I haven't tried it, yet, but plan to during some Troop JLT during holidays.

-mike

We hashed this out a couple of years ago. (And Bob White definitely helped supply chapter and verse that time!)

You might find more info if you search the archives.

One detail that came up was this clearly only referred to a single patrol. If more patrols jump on the bandwagon, the campout turns into a multiple patrol activity. The handbooks don't address this, but I would consider it a troop campout with adults required. (Even though you might decide to set up the adult area just at the edge of earshot or even further.) The rationale is that more than one patrol starts to reach critical mass where things are more likely to happen.

Another consideration - a communications safety net. If they're really heading into the boondocks, think about hiking out to the proposed area before the planned event to find out what kind of cell phone coverage they have for bona fide emergencies. If cell phone won't help enough, consider renting a satellite phone for emergency use. Not cheap, but it will do a lot for peace of mind.

Another idea on how to take some smaller steps toward patrol camping that we do a few times a year:

Start off on a troop campout to an area with some room to roam.

Camp together Friday night and enjoy your program during the day on Saturday.

On Saturday night after dinner and dishes, have the patrols saddle up and give each a compass course (or GPS coordinates) to their new campsite for the night.

The guys love taking off into the night with their headlamps glowing and the adults love sitting around a quiet campfire with the coffee pot close. (Sometimes they know this is coming and sometimes we take them by surprise.)

After an hour or two, we'll take a walkabout to sneak up on their camps to make sure everybody is doing OK.

Last January when local overnight lows reached 20-deg, we stashed a coffee pot filled with water, some cocoa mix and snacks, and a supply of firewood at each campsite during the day. The guys were delighted and did fine. When they came hiking back into base camp, crunching through the overnight frost, we had French toast and a hearty mountain man breakfast ready to serve out of the Dutch ovens. (Browned sausage, tater tots, and eggs with lots of cheese toasted on top.) We got a lot of comments from other troops who observed our guys coming back with full packs shortly after dawn while the base-campers were frozen, huddled around fires trying to warm up, and wishing their gear would all pack itself on a morning like that.

We only had one minor problem one time about 3 years ago - a scout who should have known better was playing with the fire and another scout got burned. (Not serious, but painful blister.) We made it clear that they had violated our trust and they would lose this opportunity if they didn't use their heads and control themselves. No problems since. (At least none reported.) The guys really like doing this and don't want some stupid action to foul it up.

Your mileage may vary, but it's definitely worth a try.

-mike

Hey EagleDadx3,

Congratulations and welcome to the campfire!

I have 1 down (or should we say up?) and 2 to go, but hope to join you in claiming 3 from this roost.

It's a little off topic, but since EDx3 already answered the question, here goes.

A few years ago, my Boy Scouts started giving me a hard time about displaying BSA stickers on our cars. (Background: Some might call us a hard-core conservative family and our political and religious views are often discussed around the house.) I told my boys those stickers were my quiet protest against the so-called politically correct who are fighting the controversial views BSA is willing to stand up for.

To my amusement, within a few days, my spare stickers were being displayed on their school notebooks and they started wearing BSA t-shirts to school.

We had many good laughs over the wacky and rude comments they received.

The only downside is it HAS tempered my combat assault driving techniques on the local roads, like Eagle73 suggests....

Here's to being politically incorrect!

Jeez - growing up in the 60s and 70s, I never would have thought the Boy Scouts would ever be the radicals!

Display those stickers proudly!!

(While you still can.)

-mike

Barry,

Your "bold" suggestion about how to get the adults to see the light about patrol method is probably the best single recommendation I've seen in these esteemed forums. Clear - concise - and directly addresses the concern. Wow - can't wait to put this into action!

Thanks!

-mike

Thanks, fgoodwin!

I'm pretty sure my wife didn't write that column, but I'm going to sleep better tonight knowing it's all worth the effort.

-mike

Right on to start with the youth leadership chain-of-command.

If he doesn't have luck after trying SPL, he might ask the SM for a SM Conference.

We normally think of those only for advancement, but it's also for a status check and if your son is getting frustrated, that's a way to have a good chat about advancement and his other experiences. Hopefully the SM will get the hint and give the youth leadership a nudge.

If your son is really motivated and you're willing to help, you might also take a good look at his Boy Scout handbook. It's not a great textbook, per se, but I'll bet you could both have a lot of fun trying to figure it out. Even firebuilding can be done safely at home - my youngest son's Cub Scout den were cooking over a fire built on some bare dirt in my backyard last Sunday. (Other options are some old concrete away from structures, inside of metal trash can lid, etc. Just be sure to have a garden hose hooked up and ready to go. And you might alert your neighbors so they don't call the fire department.) Firebuilding and map/compass aren't magic. You can learn most of it by reading the book and experimenting. Imagine the older boy's amazement when your son volunteers to build the fire at the next campout! (And then get signed off.)

Another good source of info is the Boy Scout Field Book.

Good luck and have fun!

-mike

Eagle63,

Normally I would recommend you and your son contact the District Advancement Chairman to seek his/her advice, but that would certainly make things even worse in his troop and, at 14, he has many years of scouting to look forward to as a youth.

But I'd start by having you talk to the SM. Try and find out why he doesn't feel like your son is ready. It's very possible that he simply doesn't think your son is old enough. There is no age requirement for Eagle, but way too many adults out there seem to think they can impose one. They can't. If the SM thought your son had some issues with scout spirit, etc., he should have been more clear in his SM conference. It really bothers me that the SM approved your son's Eagle project - knowing full well this meant he was closing in on his goal - then threw up another roadblock.

There's more to this story. Find out what it is. If the problem sounds terminal in his home troop, don't think twice about visiting others immediately. Like I said at the beginning, your son has many more years of scouting to enjoy. Don't let bad feelings in one troop from spoiling it for him.

Good luck!

-mike

Perhaps the SM needs to make it more clear to all involved that any troop service project (Eagle or otherwise) is an "all hands on deck" activity. That's exactly the words one SM I know uses.

Sounds like there's a selfish attitude prevailing in this troop. Not unusual - especially in a younger group. But they need to be challenged to get involved and participate in service. Maybe even pushed. All things being equal, they often won't choose to serve others when the alternative is to spend a Saturday morning watching cartoons or playing Nintardo. But this shouldn't be posed as a simple matter of them showing up to serve if they want to. If phrased this way, most won't go. Instead, set the bar a little higher and make it clear they are expected to support.

It will be hard at first, because the scouts will only see it as a pain, not any fun, or as that 4-letter word, work. But as they serve, find ways to have a little fun and give them praise for whatever difference they are making in the community. Slowly theyll come to understand the value in what theyre doing and theyll get a warm feeling from the good theyre doing. And theyll be building friendships as they work side-by-side with their fellow scouts.

Another thought. Does your troop keep records of participation in all troop activities? If youve set the expectation that they support all troop activities (meetings, campouts, service projects, etc.), you should keep records so you know who is making the effort. These kinds of records are very valuable during SM conference when discussing the scouts level of activity and how hes growing in scouting. I wouldnt recommend setting participation requirements, per se, but would consider it a negative worth discussing if a scout is only showing up for the fun events or the ones that benefit mostly him, and are skipping the rest.

Somehow, you have to get the discussion beyond, Whats in it for me? Of course, the answer is "By helping out, you'll get that good feeling that you've done something unselfish for someone else or make this world a better place and youll grow in the process. But theyre not going to understand those words, so youre going to have to push, pull, lead and cajole them to the point where it becomes part of them.

Good luck!

-mike

You guys have me itching to get out there again! Work prevented me from getting in a major trip this summer for the first time in years and I'm going into withdrawal!

Packsaddle - I'd like to try your "minimalist" approach some time. It seems like every time I get out, I'm either going with scouts or buddies without much experience, so I feel compelled to carry a ton of "just in case" stuff.

Anarchist - I may pull my tattered old canvas Camper pack off the frame and diamond-lash my old poncho onto the frame on our next weekend backpacking trip! That'll flip out the guys with their $200 packs!

Happy trails!

-mike

I'm old school, too. Have used both, but keep coming back to external frame because I like the feel and the clanking/creaking is music to my ears. (Kinda like the delightful taste of iodine water that means I must be backpacking!) I also sweat a lot and like the extra ventilation. Of course, most of my backpacking is on trails, so extra stability and narrower sides arent much of a consideration. However, on a really challenging 10-day trek in the Wind River Range last year that was almost totally off-trail in snow, I was glad I went with NOLS advice and used their gargantuan internal frame.

For scouts at Philmont, theres really not that much of a performance issue. External frame might mean less time trying to get organized and internal might mean a little better stability when rock-hopping rugged portions of trail. Mostly its just a matter of preference.

One difference nobody has mentioned is cost. In general, you can get more pack for less money with external. The experts at REI told me 8 years ago that internals were the clear wave of the future and I wouldnt be able to find an external frame for sale in 3 years. The experts were clearly wrong. Im not sure whether their prediction was based on superior performance or superior marketing (and profit margin), but I have my suspicions.

(Sorry couldnt resist.)

Whichever pack you pick, youre going to have a GREAT time, and pack selection wont have nearly as much of an influence as physical preparation and team building before you get there. (Forgot to add boots. Spend lots of time in those boots to get your feet ready!)

IWGBTP!!

-mike

(This message has been edited by Mike F)

Well - dang - that's what I was afraid of. (Turns 18 this weekend.)

Important issue is whether or not he did everything in the MB requirements. There are a lot of written requirements. (http://www.meritbadge.com/mb/010.htm) Keeping an exercise log, recording test results every 2 weeks, etc. If he did the requirements, these will all be complete and should be inspected.

I think your question about why he didn't use the counselor he had is a very fair question. I would consider having a special conference with yourself, SM, CC, and Advancement Chair. Include the scout. Get all the questions out on the table and clear the air.

Or you can skip the above and say he didn't meet the "trustworthy" requirement, so final results of MB investigation are irrelevant.

As COR, you definitely have the right and responsibility to be deeply involved. I'm sure the Charter Org you represent wants the troop they sponsor to maintain their integrity.

-mike

Wes,

I agree with gist of Hunt's note.

It's a major issue if he didn't complete the MB properly and forged the signature to get around the MB counselor. Were his actions an intentional act to "cheat" his way to Eagle, or did he just get into a bind and use poor judgment? A possible example might be if he had completed all of the work, faced a deadline on getting requirements all turned in, and the MB counselor was out of town for extended period. I would consider this a more minor example of poor judgment -- he should have contacted SM and Advancement Chair and worked with them to find an alternative, instead of taking things into his own hand (literally).

Just finding another MB counselor who will agree to sign is not enough. You need to find out why the original MB councelor didn't sign it. It's possible the scout hadn't completed all of the requirements associated with the comprehensive 12-week physical fitness program. This MB takes a lot of work. If scout hasn't completed all of the required periodic fitness tests to show progress, etc., then he hasn't completed the requirements and no MB counselor should be allowed to sign anything. The requirements are tough, but clear. There is no gray area - they were either completed to the letter or they were not. If the scout has run out of time to restart the 12-week clock before he turns 18, I'm sorry. Scouting is not about earning Eagle. It's better he learn a bitter lesson in integrity and in making plans and sticking to them, than to compromise the integrity of the program for everyone.

I hope some of these discussion assumptions are not true and he has time to learn and recover from his mistake.

If he has time left before 18, I'd start the recovery process with a SM conference to set things straight. And would consider a troop BoR to review the advancement situation and recovery plan.

Good luck!

-mike

Since we were on the topic of special recognition for earning all 20 pins, I feel compelled to share a cautionary note. Yes the boys who make the effort to earn all 20 can and should be recognized, but be wary of putting so much emphasis and effort into earning all 20 that the Webelos burn out on scouting and dont want to continue.

I saw this happen in both of my older boys dens. Den Leaders seemed obsessed that they all must earn all 20. They talked a lot about the importance of earning that little trophy how it was the crowning glory of cub scouting. Every meeting was chock full of advancement activities. They even scheduled extra meetings toward the end to allow catch-up and to finish the last few.

Commendable, perhaps, but Den Leaders forgot about having fun and preparing them to move on to Boy Scouts. By the end, the guys were sick of scouting most just hanging on for that little $5 trophy.

In my older sons den, less than half joined a Boy Scout troop and only 1 remained in boy scouting beyond his first year. (Thankfully my son but with great resistance.) When #2s Den Leader started with the same pressure, I tried to convince DL that it wasnt really all that important, but to no avail. So I had several talks with my son to make sure he understood that there was no pressure from us to earn all 20. If he wanted to work that hard, fine, but it was more important to have fun and make reasonable progress without getting all stressed up over it. My son and one other Webelos were embarrassed on the night of the last Pack Meeting when they werent up there with their buddies getting the 20-pin recognition and trophy. But they were also the only 2 who joined Boy Scouting and they are still active 3+ years later.

Bottom Line: Special recognition for earning all 20 pins is great, but dont get the kids burned out in the process. In the big scheme of things, its more important for them to have a good time and to be really excited about moving up to Boy Scouting.

-mike

sst,

Right on! I wasn't dismissing idea - I think it's great - we've talked about it, too. Still trying to get list of guys that didn't bridge over and can't believe the Cub side hasn't been willing to release names/addresses. (Sad truth is probably that they don't know....) Sounds like you're moving beyond talking to action. I'm hoping for your success. Maybe that will get us beyond talk.

-mike

sst,

Like scoutldr said, peer-to-peer is usually most effective, but the mailer is certainly worth a try. I'd probably put some things in there for both parents and boys.

For the boys, stress adventure. They might not think scouts is cool, but most red-blooded American boys yearn for adventure. Include some pictures of local scouts in action (canoeing, rappelling, backpacking in mountains) and be sure to point out that these boys all live in the local area - they're guys right here in your neighborhood - just like you.

Maybe include a paragraph like "Information for Parents."

In addition to hitting biggies like learning self-reliance and leadership (important qualities for their future), be sure the parents understand that, while parents are welcomed and some are needed to make the program work, parents do not have to attend all activities with their son.

Again - hook them with adventure and fun. Paint a picture of sharing lunch with buddies at the top of the mountain they'd just climbed. Or waking up on a crisp, clear morning with loons calling across the Canadian wilderness lake with a glimpse of a moose foraging on the distant shore.

I have a handout that we've used at Webelos Woods with some success. Send me PM if you'd like to see it.

Good luck - Let us know how it goes!!

-mike

JM,

This is very serious. You cannot handle cases of potential abuse silently within the troop -- you MUST contact your District Executive or Council Office immediately. Any registered leader has the responsibility to take this action if he/she knows about an incident. (But I'd give the SM a call to let him/her know your plans and to offer to let SM make the call. Then follow up to make sure the report was actually filed.)

Copy of Guide to Safe Scouting on line: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/toc.html

Here's praying for the best possible outcome,

-mike