Mike F

We only consider cost sharing for the big trips, like summer camp or high adventure.

For monthly campouts, any extra costs (gas, rentals, camp fees, etc.) come out of troop funds. Philosophy is that the monthly campout is troop program. Everyone in troop is invited and all members support it through dues. If some decide not to go, that's their choice. Active members get more bang for their buck.

penst8,

Welcome to the campfire!

For longer trips, like your 700-mile trip to summer camp, I think transportation costs should be shared.

Those far-off summer camps are tempting, but we've found the extra cost prohibits some from attending.

The troop I currently serve has 3 permanent patrols and troop membership is capped at about 33-35 scouts due to physical size of facility and philosophy of maintaining size which boys can manage. Staff is SPL and 2 ASPLS. I typically have 1-2 JASMs. Staff and JASMs eat and camp with SM Staff. Mixed age patrols have about 10 members.

Age breakdown: SPL/ASPLs always 16 or 17. PLs typically 14-16. JASMs have always been 17 and already served as SPL.

New guys go straight into existing patrols. We encourage them to start coming to Troop meetings as soon as theyve committed to joining our troop in the winter. During this time, they are temporarily attached to a patrol and we observe them to make sure its a good fit. By the time they officially join in the spring, we know them and they know us. PLC takes their desires into consideration and assigns them a permanent patrol. Our patrol identities are very strong and I can only recall one instance of a scout requesting transfer to a different patrol after he was settled. We try to limit each patrol to no more than 2 brand new 11-yr olds.

PLs have primary responsibility for their training and rank advancement using resources within the patrol. SPL/ASPLs/Instructors set up some of the training opportunities at troop meetings and campouts after discussions within PLC. As a troop, we focus more on skill instruction and adventure training, not rank requirement instruction, per se. Each scout is allowed to move at his own pace. For example, hell get first aid training as part of our periodic First Aid monthly theme and patrol competition and he get can rank requirements signed off by his PL if he satisfies PL he knows it. Average time to First Class is about 2 years (varies from 1-3).

Key to success of incorporating new guys is a shared sense of responsibility to getting them trained up as part of the team and each PL assigns a slightly-older buddy to help the new guys adapt to Boy Scout camping.

Discipline with bunch of new, excited 11-yr olds is always interesting and sometimes frustrating to the older scouts. Every older scout (12 and up) has a shared responsibility to model discipline. New guys are intentionally distributed throughout patrol in formation. When one of them acts up, hell have 5 sets of eyes looking at him with a Dude we dont do that around here look. Same thing happens with the burning stick from the campfire, etc. Peer pressure is amazingly effective at helping them adapt within weeks.

SMT224 - you've probably brought up the most valuable point about sit-downs with parents - get the lines of communication open early with honest praise and recognition. Find the opportunity. If parents aren't around post-meeting/campout, an occasional 4-line email only takes a minute. Not as good as a real conversation, but better than nothing.

Crossramwedge,

Glad the advancement to Life question is clear-cut at this point, but this will rear its head in a new way very soon.

I recommend your leadership team get on the same page now, because there will be pressure to find the scout a POR to get credit for advancement.

My $0.02 for consideration:

1. There's no such thing as a scout "needing" a POR. The fact that a POR is standing between him and his next rank is irrelevant.

2. No scout is guaranteed a POR on demand he has to earn it and either be elected as SPL or PL, or be appointed to a POR by the SPL, or successfully complete a leadership project assigned by the SM. (I almost never use the SM project option there are plenty of PORs which need the scouts energy more and offer a better growth opportunity.)

3. The SPL should not be pressured to provide a POR for a scout if SPL has reason to believe he has not proven himself reliable and a good role model.

4. No POR is permanent or a guaranteed ticket to advancement credit in 4 or 6 months. If a leader is not meeting the pre-established requirements for fulfilling the job (like doing his job and setting the example by wearing his uniform properly), he can be removed from the position immediately.

Last comment about the Scout Spirit requirement: There may be a subjective nature to the successful completion of this one, but it is indeed a written requirement and is just as valid as the merit badge count, service hours, and POR. This is NOT a rubber-stamped requirement and can be a very valuable tool in helping shape a young man as he grows. I just had a SM Conf with scout (with dad observing) where I explained his recent melt-down in the Scout Spirit area prevented me from approving this requirement for his next rank until he could demonstrate he had changed his ways. His father knew full-well there was an attitude issue and thanked me for helping get through to his son.

As always, your mileage may vary.

This thread has been a little hard to follow.

I've seen at least 2 different situations that look similar on the surface.

First type are boys who just aren't engaged. I've had some luck with a JLT workshop which focuses on getting buy-in from the group by developing a shared vision. This goes way beyond where we want to go camping. It's more about about shared sense of identity and goals for the troop - and for them as individuals. Then the camping and other activities fall into place as a way to work toward those goals. After they've been part of laying this foundation, most of the guys are more interested in helping make it happen. We've been doing this for about 4 years and have had good luck with keeping most of the guys very active all the way to college - and some into the college years.

The second type are boys who have made up their mind they don't want to be in scouts, but parents won't let them quit. These boys get dumped at meetings with a chip on their shoulder and seem to be begging someone to throw them out. We try to turn them around and are sometimes successful. Sometimes they are just going through a phase and will wake up. If they are hanging around the edges for an extended period of time or are particularly disruptive, I will eventually tell a boy he's not doing himself or anyone else any favors by hanging around something he doesn't like and he needs to either decide to get in the game or get out. I even volunteer to talk to his parents about letting him drop. This usually comes as a shock. A few were thankful and have taken me up on it.

Pete,

No need to try and decide if he is in top 2-3%. And no need for subjective assessment about being "Eagle material." These generic questions can be met by setting and holding scouts to performance standards in their position of responsibility and assessing their scout spirit in terms of living up to the values we express in the Scout Oath and Law.

For your example, I would say, no.

We don't have to get all twisted up over this. The program gives us a legitimate way to handle it.

Alassa,

Welcome to the virtual campfire!

Sounds like things are going great in your Pack! Keep up the great work!!!

highcountry,

Right on! You're in the trenches with the young man and it looks like you've found a way to wake him up. That's what they pay us the big bucks for!

Unless the parent asks for advice on how to handle something, these things get onto very thin ice.

A few years ago, I had a sit-down with parents who had decided to ground their son from Scouts due to a discipline problem at school. Needless to say, he was a discipline problem in Scouts, too, but we dealt with it. I tried to reason with the parents and managed to avoid asking them if they were grounding him from church youth group, too, because that's another thing that was good for him which he enjoyed. I did warn them he would turn it on them and eliminate Scouts as a weapon they could use by saying he wanted to quit Scouts. Sure enough - only took a week. Hurt feelings all around, but after the power-play settled down, he came back.

I now bring up this example during new parent orientation and keep my mouth shut unless asked.

acco40,

Those patrol types are recommendations, not mandates. If we decide not to use them, I do not believe it's fair to say we are failing to deliver the Scouting program.

Our retention is high, our skills are excellent, and spirit superb. It works for us.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Still curious to hear the rationale.

Since we haven't heard anything, I'm going to hazard a guess it has to do with the summer months.

Dens around here do not meet during the summer, so our Den Chiefs know those months don't count to meet minimum service time for advancement. Even if there's a monthly Pack meeting, the level of responsibility is pretty minimal for a Den Chief. I have granted summer credit for a Den Chief who worked every day of our Cub Scout Day Camp and supported other Pack events during the summer.

It's not about meeting the minimum months of service, it's about the boy's growth through the process. Den Chief is an acceptable POR for Star - Eagle. To ensure the Scout has an adequate growth opportunity as a Den Chief, we set increasingly challenging standards for a Scout depending on his current rank. A First Class Scout (working on Star) assists the Den Leader, teaches a few skills, plans & runs a game activity, assists with discipline, etc. A Life Scout (working on Eagle) is expected to run some of the meetings with the Den Leader's assistance. This gives him the growth opportunity more closely equating to running a Patrol or Troop - something you'd expect of your Life Scouts.

As an aside, kittle mentioned her son not being allowed to hold two POR at one time. Is this true? We have had a number of Den Chiefs who continued as Den Chiefs at the same time they held other positions in the troop. We have one who is "double-badged" as Instructor and OA Rep right now. Are the POR Police coming to get me?

I'm going to a boat store today to try and find the real stuff.

In the meantime, I use waxed dental floss TAPE.

Capella - you're right - this is likely to get ugly.

Our membership application says members have an obligation to God. Our Scout Oath and Law are explicit.

Our local EBoRs are led by our District Advancement Chair and consist of members from outside the troop. In a recent discussion with the Chair about their rationale for passing a candidate who clearly had not completed all of the requirements, he told me point-blank the only way for an Eagle Candidate to fail his EBoR was to not profess a personal belief in God. When I questioned this, he was very clear he had direction from Council and presumed it came from National.

Like it, or not, that one question can be a deal-breaker, or litmus test.

Its a tough thing to work within the troop when you know the boys/families and you spend your time helping them learn the skills and otherwise develop into young men of solid character. Many come from un-churched homes. Many who grew up in the church will question their own faith at some point during the scouting years. For many, their exposure to God and faith is limited to whatever they get within the troop. Weve had a number who asked our Troop Chaplain to write the religious reference letter for their Eagle package.

To avoid problems such as these from lying hidden until an outside EBoR makes an embarrassing issue of them, we talk about the requirement to have a personal faith in God from the time a prospective member visits. I bring it up in SM conferences as part of a generic discussion concerning living up to the ideals of Scouting and know who is struggling along the way.

I havent been in your situation, so far, and hope I never am. May the Wisdom of Solomon help guide you in the days ahead!

Our story:

About 4-5 yrs ago, we suffered from some poor recruiting years and our membership slowly shrank to the point of needing to reduce down to 2 patrols. Shortly after that, the PLC made the decision that recruiting enough scouts to re-form the third patrol was their top priority. After a year, their efforts paid off - we had recruited a few Webelos and some older boys, the two existing patrols were full, and we had a number of promised recruits.

In December, right before our elections, we decided to re-start the 3rd patrol so they could have time to adjust before new members joined all of the patrols in the spring. After discussing with the PLC, we asked one of our senior boys, who had served multiple terms as a PL, if he was willing to help start the new patrol and he was excited to do so. Then we announced at a troop meeting that Patrol 3 was going to be re-formed. Johnny had volunteered to help get it started. Who was interested in switching patrols to help him? We had a number of volunteers from both patrols. SPL, Johnny, and I went over the volunteer list and made the decisions based on balancing all 3 patrols in terms of age, skills, and future leadership potential. We announced the names for the new patrol at start of the next meeting and there was much celebrating. Johnny was elected PL, as we expected would occur. I've been through this process a few times through the years and must emphasize the importance of making sure the new patrol has one or two solid candidates to assume leadership. (This is mentioned in the SM Handbook.)

The 3 patrols worked a little short-handed for a few months, but were ready when the new crossovers came aboard. A year later, this newly formed patrol took top honors at our District Camporee (with the other two not far behind).

-----

Back to discussion, I have to agree with what Barry about what happens when an existing patrol gains more than 2 new, 11-yr old members. Three is not 50% more disruption and effort than two. That one additional scout has more like 100% more of an affect on a patrol's dynamics. After gaining as many as 3 per patrol two years ago and suffering some for it, we now limit it to no more than 2 per patrol at each crossover.

For Buff,

With your relatively small troop (12 scouts + SPL), you might want to put out the word through your scouts and parents that you're open to new guys besides the annual Webelos crossover. In the last 9-10 months, we've picked up two 12/13-yr old scouts who had dropped out of another troop and two 13-yr olds who had never been in scouting. If you have some mega-troops in the area, you might find a lot of scouts who feel like they're lost in the crowd and want a more personal scouting experience. I'm sure your guys have been bragging about the canoe trip you did last summer. Tell them to invite any of their buddies who thought it sounded like fun. Unless you can recruit some older boys very soon, I'd be reluctant to take on as many as 8 new guys at crossover.

Horizon - wow - impressive! The troop I serve doesn't have it quite that together, but you give me some great ideas.

We're a little more laid back and most of the T21 stuff is done within patrols, with assistance from Instructors setting up learning opportunities at meetings and campouts. Some of the guys are eager to start tearing into the requirements and some are content to enjoy camping and doing stuff without seeking advancement. (My own son took over a year to complete Tenderfoot.) We don't line them up and say it's time to learn knife/ax/saw sharpening. We set up the sharpening area and offer the opportunity. If they'd rather spend the free time fishing, it's up to them.

This is distressing to some new parents who are used to scheduled advancements in Cubs, but allows the boys to work at their own pace. Our retention is excellent and they all eventually decide to kick it into gear, so it works for us.

Another possible angle is through the BOR's responsibility to ensure all the requirements have been met for the rank. One of the requirements is showing proper Scout Spirit. The SM may be reluctant to establish and hold to a standard for signing the book, but the Troop Committee (through the BOR) can do so.

This is not a power play - it's the TC doing its job of quality control check of the SM's program through the BOR process. When the BOR discovers some weaknesses in the program, they are supposed to feed that information back to the SM so he can appropriately adjust.

If the BOR discovered a scout met his 5-mile map&compass requirement by tagging along at the back of a crowd, never touched a compass or looked at a map, and admitted he didn't have a clue how they worked, it would be fully appropriate to decide the requirement hadn't been met and Johnny needed a little more work before rescheduling the BOR. BOR/TC would chat with SM about improving the map&compass portion of his advancement program so Johnny (and all scouts) can successfully meet the requirements.

Same concept holds true for Scout Spirit. If TC has disagreement over the standards being used to sign off on the requirement, it's time to meet with SM to come to an agreement.

Medic,

Welcome back to the fire! We've missed you the last 5 years, but good on ya for stepping back into the action!!

You'll be able to take the temperature of scouting by reading through these forums and getting an idea about the kinds of things we find challenging.

I'd recommend taking a look at recent legal developments, too.

http://www.bsalegal.org/

These won't have much direct impact on your work to help establish new units, but these issues sometimes come up in the news and folks might ask you questions.

Enjoy the ride!

The trick is to get the aspects of Brotherhood, Cheerfulness, and Service working together.

Too much of the time, the Ordeals are drudgery and they never want to come back. This is even worse in those Lodges who do their final ceremony early on Saturday and send everyone home. If they miss out on the comraderie on Saturday night with the other Arrowmen they saw also working throughout the weekend, you'll almost never see them again.

Having some fun is important, but my observation is that it's more important to have work which is meaningful. If the boys have a gut feeling that their scout camp couldn't function without their dedication and support, they are more likely to feel the pull to keep coming back.

If you can't get your Lodge moving in this direction, you certainly can with your Chapter. Talk to your camp ranger about a portion of camp, some campsites, or some project which you guys can take on as your own. Take your Chapter Chief and a few officers out for a walk about camp with the ranger to get some ideas. Then go home and build it up. "Guys, our camp needs us and it's time to mobilize our forces."

Make it meaningful! Racking pine needles while they rain down from above is immediately recognized as fruitless. Building a new dock, clearing some dangerous trees, or clearing a new campsite can be exciting.

Guys really don't mind working hard if there's a reason. Keep the spirits high, feed them well, and break out some guitars around a fire in the evening. Don't force them to join the music - just gather a few players and start playing and singing. Have a stack of song books for those who wander up to see what's going on. You'll be amazed.

Good advice.

I'd like to echo Barry's recommendation about thinking of your now college-age scouts.

A couple of years ago I was the one who had to drop late in the game. One of our college Eagles, who never had the opportunity to go on any high-adventure trips as a youth, jumped at the chance to go on a half-price trip. It was a perfect match.

In addition to the words about having backups working with your crews, I always plan from the beginning to have more adults than the minimum, since they more likely to drop out.

Another thought: About 5 years ago, we shared the trail with a crew at Philmont who were comprised of 2 under-sized groups from different parts of the country. Apparently their numbers dropped to be too small to go alone and Philmont worked to pair them up. I think one had to adjust their trek date, but they made it. I have no idea if this is a common practice or even something they're willing to discuss today. But it's an option to consider if you get caught in a bind.

I've been up there 3 times and hope to go many more! But I'm always learning, so look forward to hearing more ideas from others.

Here are mine:

What item(s) do you wish you had taken but did not?

- A knife sharpener. Cleaning lots of fish with dull fillet knives took much more time.

- Small, lightweight, tripod camera stand for taking group pictures.

What item(s) did you take but should have left behind?

- Extra clothes - only need 1 pair zip-off pants/shorts, 1 pair shorts, 2 t-shirts, 1 long-sleeve shirt, 2 pairs of hiking socks, fleece jacket and 1 pair camp shoes. (All clothes synthetic, quick-dry - only cotton allowed was one t-shirt for sleeping.)

What item(s) suprised you at how much or often it was used?

- Clif Bars. Crew of older boys were hungry.

- 2m portable HAM radio for listening to weather reports. (Also useful for emergency communications.)

- UV water purifier

- Fire starting kit (cotton balls partially dipped in wax and kept dry in double baggies - great for getting soggy stuff started)

What item(s) could you not have lived without?

- Hip pack for rain gear, compass, sunscreen, DEET, chapstick, etc. This allowed quick access and could be worn while carrying 1 or 2 packs on portages.

- Carabiners for rigging bear bags

- Bug head net with elastic straps under armpits.

- 100% DEET

- Bag on Snickers Bars for special treat after tough day

- Duct tape wrapped around Nalgene bottles (used for bandages and repairs)

NT is an awesome experience - enjoy!!

cheffy,

Your scout should explain this whole episode to the EBoR. If I was on the board, I would want to look in the scout's eyes while he explained what happened and what he learned. I would not care if our legal system found him not guilty on some legal technicality. What I really want to know is if the scout can demonstrate what it means to be trustworthy. Can he come totally clean and accept the consequences of his actions? That is the true test of character. And better to learn these tough lessons at 17 than at 37.

Hang in there.

Ford,

Im glad you asked I have neglected to submit a trip report from our trip with North Country Canoe Outfitters (http://www.boundarywaters.com) this summer. John & Kathy Schiefelbein run an outstanding operation which is very Scout-friendly. John is a former scout/scout leader and has been in this business for 25 yrs. I have led two trips with 2 crews each over the last few years. Several of our sister troops and my brothers troop have gone with them. Everyone has been very happy. My oldest son, who has wanted to go back since his first trip, put together a trip with a bunch of his buddies after they graduated from college this summer, too.

They excel at providing personal service. John sits down with every crew to tailor a trip to meet their personal desires and priorities (fishing, miles, sightseeing, privacy, etc.). I would call them a medium-sized operation: large enough to provide options and experience, yet small enough that you dont feel rushed in a crowd of folks all trying to check in at once.

I have been through BSA/Northern Tier and probably would have continued going with them, but couldnt get the reservations we wanted a few years ago. Several posters on this forum recommended NCCO to me, so I gave them a call, liked what I heard, and signed up on faith. It was one of the best moves Ive made as a scout leader. I also recognize its not for everyone. With private outfitter, theres no cheap option to include a guide/interpreter in your crew. My guys are some pretty hard-core campers who would be insulted to have a staff member taking one of their buddys slots for the entire trip. (Crew size limited to 9 in Canada.) Its exhilarating to push off on your own into the wilderness for 10 days with nothing but your equipment, skills and smarts to get you through the trip. (My guys dont know I have a rented satellite phone for emergencies.)

On our trek this summer we had one crew of horses big guys all 17 and 18 yrs old who pressed into a remote area north-west of Lake Agnes to find great fishing and solitude. They covered about 100 miles and had plenty of time for sightseeing and fishing. Our younger crew (mostly 13 & 14) used more layover days to reduce work required to portage and covered about 50 miles on day trips closer to the border. Frankly, I was concerned about how the younger crew would do, but have seen scout groups younger than them in the back-country. Those guys did great and cant wait to get back in a couple of years to press further into the bush.

Send me a PM if youd like more detailed information.

Welcome aboard, Mama!

We're all in over our heads. And may God bless you for raising your hand!!

Good advice to find and spend time with other leaders at Roundtable. It will be hard to make time for that, but very valuable.

I also recommend doing some things quickly to reach out to other volunteers and potential volunteers in your Pack. Adults are more willing to give time and get involved when they're working with friends - same as for the boys. Consider hosting a cookout at your house with a key bunch of Pack parents and leaders. Fire up the grill and tell everyone to bring their own meat for the grill and a side dish to share. Or you provide the ribs and ask them to bring sides. Or just meet at a park for desert. Anything to get willing folks together. This shouldn't be a hard-core sales pitch - just a get-to-know-each-other opportunity. After you have shared bread together, you'll find volunteers are more willing and able in the future. Do something like this every few months to keep the adult fun going, too.

In the next few months, start quietly looking for some future candidates to take your place. Ask them to get involved in any way you can to start sharing the load and learning the ropes. (You'll actually be learning together, but that's OK.) It's very unfortunate your unit wasn't doing this before they had an emergency on their hands. You will want to do better.

cheffy,

Wow - this is a tough one.

Part of how this plays out might depend on scout's attitude and the nature of his indiscretions. If he was up to some good-natured "fun" which went over the edge and realizes it's time to clean up his act, I would work with him - and have done so with an Eagle candidate in the past.

If it was something more serious, like an undeniable violation of our values as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law, and he wasnt totally repentant and a model citizen in attempting to right his wrong, I wouldnt think twice about working to convince the eventual EBoR that this scout had not earned the right to share the title Eagle Scout with me and all the others who have earned it with honor.

If denied, this will likely go through appeals. Dont let that stop you from doing the right thing. Eagle is not just getting a bunch of requirements signed off its about living your life with integrity and honor. Thats why we have that little block concerning Scout Spirit.

Hang in there.