BadenP

There is a good reason our Founding Fathers put into the Constitution a clause for the seperation of Church and State.

I have seen some very good female troop leaders who were very capable assets to the troop, and if you want to talk about growth in numbers than a coed scouting program is probably the only way scouting will be able to survive as an organization. However this will come at a cost, the program developed by BP for boys will cease to exsist as we know it as we try to be all things to all people. Coed programs at the Venturing level just make sense as this is the age group where social interaction between boys and girls is at its peak, not to mention helping retention, this is not as true at the cub and (early)boy scout levels. So we are left with a dilema, if scouting is going to survive as a growing and viable youth organization in todays world and in the future going coed may seem the way to go, however the very nature and design of the program would have to change to accomodate this new dynamic. So don't kid yourselves the program would be very different and is that the direction we want to take? Case in point look at Campfire, they went coed years ago in hopes of being able to replenish its greatly dwindling numbers, but it didn't work and their units and offices are still closing up all over the country. Many of their long term members/leaders felt the organization had sold out on the basic integrity and principles of what was Campfire Girls, my wife was one of these council leaders. I can't help but wonder if something similiar would happen to the BSA if all levels of scouting became coed.

le Voyageur I think you missed the point of packs and others statements, this is not about comparing us to the Soviets on a morality basis its about military tactics. Both the Soviet experience and our own in Afganistan proves that a traditional ground force incursion does not and can not succeed due to the mountanous cavern filled terrain and the willingness to die for their cause by the terrorists. Neither President Bush or Obama seem to understand that, so short of blowing that country out of exsistence there really is no way to win in Afganistan. Sending in more troops will literally be sending lambs to the slaughter. The Afgan rebels can just wait us out for years as they have already, when we have finally had enough losses in life and capital we will pull out and the rebels can regain their positions of power.

Now come on pack you know thats not true, you're beginning to sound like Brent , lol.

Nice try pack but you are still incorrect, twinkle or not, lol.

pack I think you better check the definition of "indigeneous people" because your last post is not only miswritten, it is totally inaccurate.

inthewoods, Medical conditions aside a problem scout is not all that rare, in my experience many times it is due to either parents who do not believe in discipline or just do not care and have not given the boy enough attention at home. Getting into trouble is the way this boy is crying out for any kind of attention. During the time I was a Webelos leader I had two such cases and in both of them I helped the boys learn how to refocus that energy into positive interaction with other scouts resulting in them getting positive feedback and more friends in the process. The parents of both of these boys were about as uninvolved in their lives as they could be without being charged with neglect. The sad part was both boys parents commented to me how much better behaved they noticed their boys were at home lately and that scouting was what they needed, in other words they were clueless. I politely suggested to both sets of parents that they might also consider becoming more involved with their sons scouting experience to help reinforce this positive change. Years later I was invited to both boys Eagle Court of Honor and was asked to present the Eagle Award at both ceremonies. Sometimes all it takes is giving a little attention and focus to the boy, and direction to the parents. (This message has been edited by BadenP)

The council where I was a DE years after I left hit on hard times and they took out a large loan, that had a balloon payment which came due. They were forced to sell the camp, that had been in the council for over 75 years and the council building. A year later the council was absorbed by a larger council to the south and today there is no sign that the council, over 80 years old, ever exsisted. I hope you win the battle to save the camp because once it is gone its gone for good.

But SR 540, American companies have already been doing what you suggested and moving their manufacturing to China and Mexico(Ford Co.) and to non union states and their reason is that the cost of unionized american labor makes them noncompetitive in the world economy. Our steel, auto, and textile industries are all but gone, and our high tech industry has been taken over by other countries as well. Our country is in serious economic trouble and a union that is worried about a small project like this just showcases how bad off we really are.

IMHO one of the things that really hurt roundtable is that in most councils only 10% of the unit leaders ever attend on a regular basis. So my first suggestion is to offer some real incentives to entice unit leaders to come, such as using part of the time to get these leaders trained without them having to go to a seperate council training, introducing some variety that the volunteers suggest that they need rather than leaving it entirely to the RT Comm and DE to decide, letting some of the attending leaders with a special expertise give presentations, and not doing the exact same thing every month. Good quality and knowledgeable guest speakers are also a must. As was stated in another thread , if you build it they will come, too many RT's get stuck in stale, repetitive, and monotenous routines that do not really benefit or interest the volunteers. The result is the RT becomes little more than a social coffee club for a small handful instead of helping instruct the volunteers to do their jobs better.

All of us have heard about Boeing going to South Carolina because of union problems in Washington state, well a good friend of mine is a union member there he even feels that his union may have gone one step too far and that his plant will probably be closed within the next five years as Boeing moves manufacturing into non union states. I look at towns back east that were once manufacturing giants until the cost of labor made the companies uncompetitive with foreign companies. You can brag all you want about the necessities of unions, and in the distant past they were well intentioned, but now our country's manufacturing is all but dead and all those towns are full of long term unemployed people. So how big a price do we all have to pay to preserve these unions, look at what it has already cost our economy.

All of us here come from immigrant stock including the Pilgrims who came on their own and stole their land from the Indians. Technically all the early settlers to America were unwanted and illegal immigrants who moved out the indigeneous people from their land. As far as illegal hispanic and asian aliens of today are concerned why should they obey the law when employers and religious groups, one in particular, in our country offer them asylum and jobs. The sad part is their own people are making big money smuggling them into this country. There is no way federal law enforcement can keep them all out, less than 10% are ever caught according to INS/ICE reports. The governor of Texas has sent the Texas Rangers and the state militia to patrol their border since he claims the feds won't do the job. So what is the answer? Nobody really knows how to bring this mess under control, including the government.

I agree that this stamp is a real slap in the face to the centinnel of the BSA. The figure is obviously not a boy scout and the BSA and 100 years is not even mentioned. Prior boy scout stamps at least showed the organization it was honoring, this stamp just exemplifies the breakdown that has been occuring within the organization on the National level and the general lack of direction and focus of the organization as a whole. OGE if you read the article instead of just looking at the picture you would know that is not the message they were trying to give, and I rather doubt that Kudu would agree with your statement.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Too bad someone didn't just put the whole bunch of those morons on a one way trip to Iraq. See, even the BSA can sell out their values and integrity for a moment of fame and publicity. Whats next Rush becoming the next BSA National President, lmao. Thanks for sharing Brent.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

My problem with the Afgan War is that our military experts really think they can win this war with ground forces only when history has proven otherwise. These Afgans know the hills and caves where to hide to avoid our troops. They played cat and mouse with the Russians and us and small groups can hold off larger troop incursions using the terrain to their advantage and just pick them off one by one. The only way to decisively and quickly win this war is by using missles, drones, stealth bombers and virtually decimate the hills and caves where these guys are hiding. There would be a lot of collateral damage, civilian deaths, etc., but it would save many of our troops lives than a frontal ground assault would. All of you also forget that there is no oil or valuable resources in Afganistan, it is not a strategic asset so there is no reason for the US to mount such a campaign. If our military leaders insist keeping this a ground war then those pictures you saw of the Russian troops leaving Afganistan in defeat years ago will be replaced with our own troops leaving in defeat. So Obama knows that this war either has to be accelerated using advanced weaponry resulting in a much more bloody conflict with potentially large numbers of civilian and military casualties, or put more ground troops and watch them get picked off one unit at a time over a long period of time and finally leave in defeat, remember Vietnam, or pull out completely and leave a safe haven for Al Queda and the Taliban. I don't know about you guys but I would hate to have to decide on any of these options.

AHH OGE and your style is to use or abuse your moderator status to manipulate things to your line of thinking, no I do not speak for anyone else, my comment was based on observation at all the negative feedback Dunwoody was receiving refuting his position and I am surprised you were unable to pick up on that yourself, but then again you are a member of the loathsome ilk club, lol.

Brent your argument is moot and no one is listening anymore. Twisting and turning what you do in your troop or district does not make it a fact for the rest of the country. Your starting premise for this discussion is invalid rendering the rest of your argument invalid, wake up and smell the coffee, lol.

Brent Sticks and stones. Whatever you believe Dunwoody but my scouting experience is not only much more diverse than yours it is at least up to date versus your prehistoric ideas. It must be tough on you Brent to not only be proven wrong but to go on believing and arguing you are right as your ship continues to sink, lol. Oh and for the record, as a former scouting professional I can tell you from first hand experience that a council does not waste any of their employees time ever checking references on an Eagle application, all they look for is that the application is complete and then they send it in, and that is the policy from National that all councils follow.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Brent You are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! Quit harping on Ed and Pack for your own obviously INCORRECT interpretation of the rules, your argument is based on FALSE assumptions so give it up already.

Okay, once again Brent in John's post he cites National's policy in this matter which is very different from your interpretation, why won't you just admit that once again are wrong and leave it at that. It DOES NOT matter what you or anyone thinks a boy should do it what National has mandated and they have have stated ,"an EBOR can NOT be postponed or denied because of a lack of references." That is all she wrote people, CASE CLOSED. Time to move on to something more constructive.

Brent YOU JUST LOVE TO PICK A FIGHT EVERY TIME DON'CHA DUNWOODY. I never said that Brent, the letters, as ed states, should not and can not be held over the kids head as a threat ever. Unless you know the people who wrote the letters they really don't mean as much as talking to the boy and letting him present his case to the board. I bet in Dunwoody Brent you sit there with a check off list to make sure everything is in and hardly talk to the boy at all, thats why it is vital that the EBOR members are intelligent,and have real people and interviewing skills (probably hard to find in Dunwoody eh Brent, lol). Since you apparently use these letters as a crutch and prize them so highly in determining eligibility for Eagle and limit the time to 30 minutes I am willing to bet you guys never really get to know the candidates, instead making them jump through all the hoops and hurdles your district has created. Scoutldr is still correct Brent the letters are not a requirement and the district does not have the authority to make them a requirement like it or not that is Nationals call. Have a nice evening Brent.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Brent I am quite amazed you are so dependent on those letters from people you know nothing about, this indicates to me you real have trouble determining a persons character and integrity, what a surprise. For the record our EBOR's are not 30 minutes, unlike your council apparently, we do not set time limits when determining awarding the Eagle.

scoutldr is correct Brent, besides if a EBOR can not determine the readiness of a teen to become an Eagle from interviewing him then I would seriously question the quality and competency of that board. How will three letters from people you don't even know help you determine something you should be able decide for yourself after talking to the candidate? In all my years in scouting and all the EBOR's I have sat on there was not one time the board ever used the reference letters to determine the teens eligibility for Eagle, and that is the way it is supposed to be done. Character, leadership, and scout spirit can be easily recognized during the interview process without the need of letters from sources unknown.

pack, thank you for being so concerned about my welfare but fear not while I disagree strongly with Merlyn on most things I enjoy the verbal battanage back and forth and never get really angry,I do not not wish any harm on him, life is too short for that. On the Bible verse quoted remember the who it was written for, when and why it was written before you try to apply it to a present day situation because it most cases the application does not hold up well. Lastly being "Played as fools", is not the same thing as being a fool don't take it to heart it is just part of the argumentive process.

Pack, your bible verse is not only quoted incorrectly and out of context but is not even relevant to this discussion, and FYI I do not take these discussions all that seriously believe me. shortridge, lol, lmao and ha ha at your nonsensical comment. Merlyn, yeah it looks like you have a fan club here, congratulations, maybe I will nickname the group "Merlyn's Loathsome Ilk", lol and lmao (added for shortridges benefit)