MattR

A vibrant OA could really help scouting. It would be great if the super enthusiastic scouts in a district could get together and feed off of each other. Challenging campouts. Meaningful service. A lot of intensity. That would be great. Everyone would look up to it. A lot of scouts would want to be a part of it.

But I have to admit, the scouts are correct when they say the OA now is dull. At least our lodge and chapter is. There's a lot of ceremony with nothing behind it. Changing the rules for wearing pocket flaps and how scouts are elected won't change much. If it's the honor society than it should be doing a lot more of what scouts normally do. Go climbing every week in the summer, or do a 100 mile backpacking trip, or build your own kayak, or build a habitat for humanity house, or take a scout reach troop camping every month for years, or, you know, a super version of what we're trying to do all the time. Memorizing Alowatsakima's speech is not nearly as meaningful as knowing that since you took half a dozen kids camping 5 times that you got them interested in scouting. I understand the need for ceremony, but if the ceremony is stripped out of the OA, all that's left is cheap labor twice a year to help the local scout camp. The scouts know this. If instead you had just one scout that could say the OA is more intense than a high adventure trip and more meaningful than an Eagle project, the numbers would take care of itself. That, and Alowatsakima would be the biggest, toughest, most respected scout in the council.

All it takes is an hour a week....

Speaking of imprinting, if boys tend to imprint from dads and girls tend to imprint from moms then the typical broken family will tend to hurt the boy more than the girl. Is this why male graduation rates are below female rates? I wouldn't be surprised. Girls and boys think differently and if you don't understand how a kid thinks it's hard to help them grow up.

That said, I still struggle getting scouts to take responsibility

Now that I think about it, blaming the women for all the men's problems is not a very manly thing to do

But, since I'm a Scoutmaster and motivating boys is my main job, this is a good subject. That and the most frustrating thing I ever see is a group of 15 year olds that are capable of doing amazing things, sitting around like a beached whale. So I certainly don't have the answers. But I try.

Boy Scouts is interested in developing well rounded young men. In my view there are two parts to that. The first is being selfless and is basically described in the Scout Oath and Law. The second, for lack of a better name, is what I call spirit. Look at the previous posts and words like adventure, conquest, competition, dreams, and excellence are used. Think of those words and what's the first image that comes to mind? It isn't homework. I'm a firm believer in homework but I'm also a firm believer in what a good adventure can teach you. Society pushes homework but not adventure. I think, on average, this hurts boys more than girls. Girls want and learn from adventure, too, but they don't typically seem to need it like boys.

With all that said it still seems to take time to get boys into the spirit. They have to learn to get out of their comfort zone. When they join a troop at 11 they want fun. It's only when they get older that they need adventure and challenge but they also need encouragement, and I don't think they're getting that outside of scouts, and maybe not enough within scouts. I have beached whale kids and it's easier to be lazy than spend a week backpacking. So, we have most of it figured out.

This may be somewhat related but I just did a scoutmaster minute on excellence. Excellence is setting your own bar and reaching for it. Mundane is having someone else set the bar for you. School is mundane. Even if you get straight A's you can be mundane because you might not have had to push yourself, it's just the teacher telling you what to do to get an A, over and over and over.

Competition requires excellence. You have to dig it up from the inside. Boys like to compete. Boys also like to be a part of something bigger than themselves. Having your team win the superbowl is something special. So are gangs, to boys that have nothing else.

Excellence can also come from things other than competition. An Eagle project usually requires a scout to stretch himself a lot and set his own bar. Real leadership also encourages excellence. A leader decides where the bar is.

Mundane is easier than excellence. Boys want the easy path. But I have a hunch excellence is what boys need. So, to get a little closer to your question, I think boys need more opportunity for excellence, whether it be competition or leadership or just being the best at something I'm not sure it matters. Boy Scouts can easily fill that need but it's too easy for adults to make it look no different than having a teacher tell you what to do when.

I'm trying something new in my troop. I asked for scouts that want to be excellent and told them they will meet, find something they want to lead for the troop, and be excellent about it. I'll teach them leadership skills that they'll use on their projects and I expect them to bring a positive attitude and make the time needed to do a good job. It's kind of a cross between NYLT, a woodbadge ticket, EDGE, and a team effort. I have half a dozen scouts signed up. We'll see how it goes.

He was running at the swat team with a rifle. It was his fault. His first bad decision was to do something that caused the police to show up. That's not so bad, relatively speaking. What he didn't do is realize he made a mistake and back down. As the police tell us, sometimes good people make bad decisions.

I had just become SM and we were talking about limiting scouts (we were over 50). A dad called me asking if his son could join my troop and I was going back and forth about whether to tell him to bring his son in. The dad was kind and so I finally told him yes. The boy is great, as is his little brother. The father died of ALS a few years ago. While talking to the boy about getting Eagle I asked him why he was letting things not get done and he said his dad used to kick him in the butt. I asked him if he wanted me to kick him in the butt once in awhile and he said yes. He'll be an Eagle this Spring (he'll be 17). His little brother is next in line for some adult guidance.

The result of this is that it's really hard for me to say no. I'll tell people to look at other troops but I'll never say no. We could easily have 85 scouts in March and I don't know how we're going to do it.

As for helping other troops, a group of SMs and I just started getting together to compare notes, trying to help each other out. I'm not doing this so I can impart my wisdom on the smaller troops that need help. We're all doing this because we all recognize we all need help.

I need a scoutmaster minute on making mistakes, as in not compounding a bad decision by making a much worse decision. An ASM from another district was shot and killed by the swat team a week ago....

EagleDad,

>Just get in the habit of asking scouts what they are thinking (goals wise) when

>they are struggling on something. It works for all ages, just keep the

>expectations realistic for their age and dont get hung up on their answers.

About a year ago I came to the conclusion that the average scout has really poor time management, goal setting, and planning skills. They mostly drift with the winds and their Eagle project is a big rock that they crash into. So I started quarterly goal setting. I don't care what the goals are that they set, but I'm trying to get them into a process, as you mention. The planning part is simply a matter of asking as many questions of how to achieve their goals as possible, who, what, where, when, how, .... The meeting before the COH we do a troop wide thorns and roses session on what the scout's goals were and what they achieved. Between that and making sure there are scouts that can teach skills available, that's most of what we do for advancement. I think the scouts like it because they take ownership.

I used to have a much less structured way of asking scouts their goals and it didn't stick. They would think about it, and than forget about it five minutes later. That's why I went to a more formal process that reminds them periodically to think about their goals.

>Its like asking a scout to set a goal of earning the Eagle, in reality the

>average boy can even conceive how to earn the Eagle because it is so

>complicated. They may say that is a goal, but they arent really seeing it. Its

>to big, especially for new scouts.

Absolutely! That's why the 3 month time frame.

>Do that consistently in bites that he can understand and see for his maturity

>and eventually you have scouts who can plan a campfire, then COH and a whole

>campout.

That's where I'm going with this. Eventually I want every position of responsibility to set goals and have a plan. Not mine, theirs. Same thing for those that lead events.

>The Eagle will be a breeze after all that. It will happen faster than

Well, I hope it will just be a good hard hike rather than crashing into a mountain.

>you think, especially if you start doing this with the new scouts. Where I

>really saw this make a big change in our troop was in the PLC planning

>meetings. You will find one day that they are planning faster than the adults.

>It will be a shock, so keep a chair near by.

Funny you should mention the PLC. Six months ago I started them reviewing troop and individual goals as well as plans they created. They're getting a lot more done now. I always smile when I don't know what's going on but the scouts are taking care of things. Probably in the next month or two I'm going to have each patrol start creating their own goals for each quarter.

>Once you get going on this, reflection is the next step.

And this is the part I'm struggling with now. A plan is based on goals, and goals are based on a vision. A scout without a vision will have few goals, no plan, and will do very little if anything. My response to a few scouts like this was to encourage them to work on Eagle hoping that success would motivate them. After everything I've read on this thread I'll try helping them figure out what drives them.

This is easy for the younger scouts: fire, water, long pointy sticks (fun), and advancement. It's much more complicated for older scouts. Fun and a high adventure trip a year are not enough when there's baseball, and marching band, and swimming, and lego robotics, and student council, and a whole lot more where each coach demands 100% participation. I see really great kids with huge leadership potential struggle with scouts not because they're bored or the program is not fun (they really enjoy the events) but because they're so good at so many things that they do a lot and consequently they don't have the time for scouts. Scouting is a high priority but it's pushed down the list because other activities require nearly 100% participation. In a way this is a different thread than the original but I think it's the same issue. Boy Scouts is not like other activities. The goal is not obvious like in sports (win!). Some may say the goal is the Scout Oath but a scout's response would be, OK, I did that for a week, I'm done. The goal of scouting may be the Oath but each scout needs their own goal. I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking for a process for scouts to figure out what their goals are, and it should be more than "get Eagle" so as to help reduce the dad effect and the time effect. No other activities allow a boy to select their own goals and that's the power of Scouting. Unfortunately, I really don't know how to help a scout figure that out.

>Really MattR, you sound like a really good Scoutmaster.

I appreciate the compliment, but, honestly, I'm clueless most of the time.

>How long have you been doing the job? Maybe you are working someone elses

>problems. The two scouts that quit after Eagle doesn't match your style to me.

>Could they have been the products of a previous SM? And the other two scouts

>sound like they are relating the goals that someone else has piped in their

>heads.

Five years. No, they aren't someone else's problem, I just can't figure out how to bring them out and I'm frustrated. I've had luck with other scouts. One scout, I just said I thought he'd be a good SPL and I turned him on a dime. Another, I made him do his Eagle project over. Now he appreciates what I did. So, I have a mixed record.

EagleDad, funny you should mention teaching scouts to set goals. Six months ago I started having scouts set goals the meeting after each COH that they want to achieve by the next COH. It's helping a lot of scouts. It's much better when it's their idea. This is one part of something that includes having older scouts create their own vision/dream/future whatever. Maybe I need to get that going, although I'm not sure how to do that.

I should add I'm not pushing Eagle so much as I am pushing scout spirit. It's participation, having fun, jumping in, helping out, cheerfully dealing with problems. I have scouts that aren't interested in Eagle and just want to go camping and I'm happy with that. We schedule only a few meetings a year for advancement and that's for the younger scouts. Of the scouts I mentioned, I asked them why they were in scouts and they all said to get Eagle, so that's why I encouraged them to get Eagle. I figured if they had some success then they'd get motivated to do something else. I completely missed the mark. The two that did get Eagle didn't participate, have fun, jump in, help out or do anything afterwards.

Twocubdad, you're right, "I shouldn't even try" is more frustration than reality. I did try with these scouts, for a long time, but it looks like I tried the wrong things. After this discussion I see two different things to try. The first is helping a scout find their scout spirit (or purpose), and the second is helping a scout do that independently of his parents. Those two are so intertwined I don't know that they can be pulled apart.

As Beavah says, scouts are all unique, so finding their purpose has to be a one scout at a time process. So, it's a SM conference thing? How does this work? I could really use a list of 30 questions that could help squeeze some ideas from a scout. One challenge is that teenage boys have a lot of trouble putting ideas into words. Maybe once a scout turns 14 he goes on a vision quest? Starving and sweat lodges are probably not in the guide to safe scouting.

I think parents are a bigger issue. I think they need training on how to be a scout parent. They need to help out, but at the same time gradually let go. Is there any such training? Twocubdad, isn't that the problem you're up against? Dad won't let go so the son is in rebellion? I've had several scouts finally decide they really did want to get Eagle about a year after dad finally gave up.

Thanks guys, you're helping.

As I see it, my job as SM is to motivate scouts to live the ideals of scouting. My best tool is praise after a job well done. Set the bar high and help the scout reach it. Sometimes it's a lot of help. Mostly encouraging them, keeping them focused, and sometimes being hard nosed about it. Most scouts respond. Some incredibly so.

A couple of scouts don't, however, and I'm wondering if I should be helping them. Or maybe there's a different way to help them? Some scouts just seem lazy and self centered and I'm not happy with the results. Example 1) Scout was enthusiastic when young but disappeared around 14 spending a lot of time playing video games. I talked to him several times and convinced him to do his Eagle project. He did a nice job. Now he's back to being a sloth and is very unreliable (the PLC's words, not mine). I think I made a mistake helping this scout. Example 2) Scout is a good kid, but will never step up, help out, or do much of anything. It took him almost 2 years from when he completed all the requirements for Eagle to have his SM conference, BOR, and COH. I think this had something to do with dad saying get Eagle before you can drive. So I don't think he ever really cared. Example 3) Good scout. Mom, dad, uncle, and grandpa want the boy to get Eagle. After several years of struggle he finally said no. I respect this kid more than the other two.

It seems that scouts need to find their own reason for wanting to get Eagle (and not dad's). If they have a reason then I can help them and I enjoy it but if they don't then I shouldn't even try. The question is how do you tell whether a scout really wants to get Eagle for himself, as opposed to for dad or peer pressure or whatever? If you asked the first two of these scouts they would have said they want to do it, so that won't help. Do you ask them why they want to get Eagle? I like to do the "five whys" with being selfless but maybe the five whys for being Eagle would help both of us more.

What a great way to give the scouts ownership, Red Feather. Do you set expectations that all upper rank scouts need to give service back to the troop? More than just the 4 or 6 months for the POR. It wouldn't have to be as time consuming. Tie that in with them setting their own goals and everyone helps out. I've been talking to some other people about doing this and working the goal setting in with the calendar planning. I'm just not sure what the pros and cons are.

Cheermeister, game master, hike master, cook instructor, dutch oven instructor, backpacking master, campfire mc instructor, leave no trace instructor, service project lead, webmaster, color guard master. I like these. Thanks.

Red feather says "All of these PORs were thought of and proposed (in writing to the SPL and SM) by the scout doing the job." I'd like to hear more. How do they come up with ideas? Do they have to set goals for each position? Do the scouts need help defining the position? Can other scouts help them with this? How much mentoring/coaching do they need?

SR540Beaver, I do ask older scouts if they'd like to be troop guides and they're great with that. In fact that's what started this because I had a scout go from almost dropping out to wanting to become SPL after he was troop guide.

I've turned several older scouts around by matching them with the right task. Some like leadership, some like to be the best at something, it depends on their personality. While this really helps these scouts, I'd rather the scouts figure this all out on their own. I'd also like most of the 14-17 year olds having some specific responsibility. So this process needs to be part of the culture of the troop. You know, we have a planning session for the calendar that gives us a very specific set of events but we don't have a planning session for responsibility that would give each scouts a specific set of responsibilities. What if after the calendar is made, or every 6 months, the SPL makes a list of all the PORs he needs, and any scout can propose something they want to add to this list? There's a responsibility planning session (the older scouts are encouraged to go), and other than the PLC, the SPL matches scouts to responsibility. Scouts walk away with a list of goals and the SPL knows who's doing what. Everyone has a job, the calendar is set, scouts can than plan their own time, and then the fun can happen.

I'm looking for tasks for older scouts in upper ranks to keep them engaged. My reason is the following: While patrols cook and clean on campouts I constantly repeat "everyone has a job", and it works. While something needs to be done everyone has to help out. There's no arguing, it's easier for PLs to lead, team work develops, the scouts have more fun, it's great. I've also noticed that older scouts, when they have the right responsibility in the troop, also thrive. Scouts that were ready to drop out all of a sudden really get into scouting once they are matched with the right task to do. So I was wondering about taking "everyone has a job" and extend it to the entire troop. Specifically, I'd like to give older scouts in upper ranks an opportunity to own a task to do for the troop. I don't want to make them do it but I want to help them find something they can get into. It could be a cooking instructor, helping younger scouts set goals, organizing a trip, putting together a list of good games, or whatever. It might be a regular position of responsibility or it might not. I don't care as long as the scout sees it as important, he sees that it can be done, and he owns it. This could also be seen as preparation for doing an Eagle project (come up with an idea, create goals and a plan, see it through).

So what kind of tasks does everyone else have for their older scouts?

Eagle732,

I doubt that today's kids are not physical enough. Some scouts are obviously stronger than others, but I'm guessing you're reasonable (or else you wouldn't be here asking).

I don't know if I asked this before but did the scouts that picked the calendar go on the campouts? If less than half of those that picked the calendar went then that suggests they're in a rut. If all of those guys go but the younger scouts don't go, that's another problem.

I do like SMT224's idea of checking out the tents and patrol boxes before and after the campout. I also like five minutes of thorns, roses, and buds at the next meeting. We sort of do it but I think giving everyone a chance to talk is good. I recently changed the meetings so most are about the campout. Pick songs, pick skits, plan it all out and then have a game.

So now the challenge is coming up with some aspect of the campout that's new every month. eg, we came up with GPS frizbee golf (the "basket" is a coordinate, if the frizbee is at the coordinate then it's in the basket), so now we need to teach the scouts how to use the different coordinate systems.

I think all of you are going to be pleasantly surprised in 2010 as the BSA rolls out some changes. They are going on offense with their message. They feel that their message was being written by everyone besides the BSA. I think Arrow Corps 5 was a way to focus attention on all the conservation work scouts do. I had a chance to ask people at national whether putting the outing back in scouting matched their goals and they said absolutely. As for Scoutreach, that's being replaced with something intended to bring all sorts of people that don't understand the scouting culture into scouts. My understanding is that scoutreach failed because it didn't bring Hispanics all the way in to a regular troop. For example, Scoutreach districts never had OA. There is also agreement that different troops have different issues. I talked to a few excellent scoutmasters and whereas I'm competing with band camp and soccer they're competing with meth labs and gangs. Flexibility and being nimble is a new push at national, but they are rock solid on keeping the core values of scouting.

I'm optimistic, but it's going to take time.

Here's something I noticed in my troop. The PLC came up with a calendar that they liked but few of them actually showed up at the campouts they picked. I think we were getting in a rut so we scrapped the calendar and started over. We're trying to work with the scouts on creating a better calendar. On our Spring camporee we told everyone to bring camo for capture the flag and also required every patrol to use a dutch oven for dinner. They said it was one of the better campouts they've had. The thing is they never would have come up with this on their own. We're trying to show them how to come up with more fun and to challenge themselves. They would not have voted for a dutch oven campout but I forced it and then had a meeting with a bunch of dutch oven recipes they could pick from. I've taken over the calendar for three months, after which I hope the scouts will be more willing to find and try different things.

Your calendar looks great to me, but I've never done those things before. I'd ask yourself if you're doing the same things over and over.

A completely different but related issue I've noticed is that motivating older scouts is not easy. Having fun is not enough. Adults want notoriety, challenge, power, success, etc, and older scouts are starting to need the same things. I've talked to a lot of Scoutmasters and many of them create a lot of PORs that are specific to each scout's desires. The standard troop has roughly 10% of the scouts in a position of responsibility and some troops have 40%. I think this is a way to let scouts excel at something so I'm going to move in that direction.

Eagle732,

You say only 25% of your scouts are going on the bike hike. Have you done bike hikes before? (We haven't and it sounds like fun.) If it's not a new idea, is this to a new place or have you already been there before? I really would like the answers to these questions.

Since I first started this thread I've added a new requirement for every campout. It has to be memorable. New place, new skill, or new theme. One campout was to the Air Force Academy (canceled because of bad weather, so we'll keep it for next time). At Spring Camporee we told them to bring camo and they played capture the flag (in the fog) and we also required the use of a dutch oven for dinner. We gave them a list of a dozen dutch oven recipes to try from to make it easier. We got half the troop to show up and considering it was end of school, prom, etc this is the best showing we've had in a while. It was a success. When I say "we" I mean myself, another adult, the SPL, and the ASPLs.

It seems like coming up with unique ideas is a skill that needs to be developed. Right now the adults are doing most of it and I want to move it towards the scouts, but it's going to take time.

Hi Kudu,

Interesting comments. With the PLs picking the SPL it sounds like a parliamentary system as opposed to a democracy. I guess it has its pros and cons. However, I would really like a book with 400 pages of ideas for having fun. That should be reprinted.

We used to have something more along the lines of what you're talking about. The patrol leaders picked weeks to plan and they were responsible for those weeks. From what I can tell that's the way it's described. The problem was that the PLs spent so much time organizing meetings they didn't have time to do anything else. Troop meetings were great but patrols were just collections of scouts. There was no cohesion. The PL had no time for his patrol. As often as we told them to delegate some of the planning it didn't work.

The problem as I see it is there aren't enough scouts taking on responsibility. Something like 10% of the troop was responsible for organizing events and it needs to be somewhere around 25%. I'm not talking about helping. Most of the scouts help. I'm talking about organizing something. They, like the adults, are time poor so I'm trying to get more scouts to help. We also ask every family to help in some way, too, but that's another story.

To spread the responsibility I said the PLs are responsible for their patrols and the SPL and ASPLs will ask other, older scouts to help organize troop level events. If you're star or above you're expected to help. The SPL and ASPLs are also responsible for training and mentoring all the other responsibility positions. The PLC still picks the calendar and maybe it should help pick other scouts to help organize troop level events. It may not be elegant and I appreciate your comments and what the PLC is supposed to do, but just like the adults, we can't depend on a small number of people doing most of the work. I was told the BSA needs to adapt to two things, time poor people and changing demographics. That's what I'm seeing.

In my troop Patrol leaders are only responsible for their patrols so troop meetings are organized by the SPL and ASPLs. That would be severe burnout on the part of the SPL if he didn't have help as every meeting is different. There's a main theme/skill/demo as well as a game. They will occasionally ask some of the older scouts in patrols to help with these things and that means keeping them in focus and getting things done. There's also communication and training. My mantra seems to be: "You're the leader and you have a lot of responsibility but you don't have to do all of it. Get people to help. That's leadership." The other one is: Everyone has a job (and this includes adults). So our ASPLs are busy.

What's the best way to use drums at a campfire? It just seems like the kind of music that would fit in. I could see 40 scouts playing drums around a campfire together would really get the blood going. Japanese Taiko, Indian drum circles, or Nalgene bottles and pots. If anyone has experience I'd like to hear about it.

As far as I know Okpik is a Camp Tahosa thing. I'm sure you could call up the Denver Area Council and start asking questions. Someone else might be doing something similar.

GernBlansten, that's why we camp on the other side of the divide; more snow and colder. The cold is a challenge but the snow is fun.

acco40, to keep your water from freezing you can bury it in the snow. Dig a hole down to the ground, put your water bottles in the hole, and bury it in snow. Snow is a good insulator and the ground will generate just a bit of heat. You have to go all the way to the ground. For us, -15 is typical and -25 is miserable. We only end up with a little bit of ice in our jugs. There are many tricks including eating like a horse. We feed our scouts dinner at 4pm and then give them a night time meal (chili or similar) before they go to bed. A nalgene with boiling water stuffed inside a wool sock stuffed inside your bag by your knees will keep you warm all night. To learn much more, the Denver Area Council has a program called Okpik that teaches a lot of winter camping skills including making quinzees (kind of like a snow cave).

Thanks for the ideas. I feel more comfortable about starting over with the calendar. We have a lot of adults with ideas and I think I'll use those to get the scouts thinking. Mafaking also has a point. I don't think the parents understand how important the comraderie is to scouting and it's primarily from the campouts. And I never really thought of this until just now, so thanks.

Another question: How much of your meetings are spent preparing for a campout? As I said before, the campouts aren't the focus of the meetings. We just figure out menus. We could be doing skits. We could Be Prepared for whatever new activity is going to happen. Our scouts spend so much time organizing other activities besides campouts that the campouts are not important. I think half of our meetings should be getting ready for the campouts; menus, skits, skills.

Gwd-scouter, I should rephrase my comment about enthusiasm and success. In order to have success there needs to be some failure. Figuring out how to deal with the frozen pancake batter is success, even if it's going hungry. If they came up with a good idea like creating a double boiler and got to eat then that's even better because they solved their problem. In either case they'll remember this because it's a challenge. If nature creates enough challenges and new situations then I don't need to add anymore, but I'm wondering if the scouts need to add challenges like breakfast is to be cooked on a stick.

Last question: How do you require a certain level of participation? If helping them come up with a better program is the carrot. Do I need a stick? I tell my older scouts that To Help Other People At All Times implies teaching the younger scouts skills. When I first started this I got blow back from everyone, but now the older scouts have decided they actually like it. Is there a similar thing I can do for the camping?

kenk, The scouts do pick the calendar and events. We have a whole campout just for the PLC to pick the calendar. We start a few weeks in advance collecting ideas from the troop. ON the campout we review the old calendar, set goals, generate ideas, vote on them, and fit them into a calendar. It's boy led. The problem is they have no idea what would really get them excited (that we can afford). They don't know what they don't know