MattR

I have to tell a story first to show how much things have changed. My first campout with the boy scouts was called an initiation campout. We were told there would be some challenges. When we got to camp scouts would slowly give out more details. It would be Saturday night, we would be blindfolded and have to make our way around camp, there was a rope bridge we had to cross, they thought someone had tightened it, it was 60 feet above the ground, it was 60 feet above a raging river, not many scouts fell off, very few died .... It was a ghost story made to scare us. I was scared. I was scared so much that some older scout took notice, pulled me aside and told me to not tell anyone else but in fact it was all a story to scare us. That older scout will forever be in my memory as a great scout that was looking out for me. But, he didn't tell me everything. We did go out on the requisite snipe hunt that, honestly, was simple fun given that there were no bridges or rivers to deal with. Then they let us into the cabin one at a time after we banged on the door and asked to be let into the troop. I was the last one. Still blindfolded, I was set down on my knees before a bench. They took off my blind fold just as someone with a glowing red hot branding iron walked in front of me. He walked around behind me, someone lifted up my shirt, and just as this guy stuck this branding iron into a bucket of water someone else put an ice cube on my back. I jumped and screamed for the first 100ms. I then figured out what happened and the biggest smile ever came across my face. Everyone in the troop cheered. The rest of the night involved retelling stories of how scared everyone was. Yes, I was scared. I was not humiliated. Humiliation requires people that are degrading, belittling, and shaming someone. Nobody was doing that to me. Sure, they were making up a huge lie, but they were also looking out for me and I never once felt that anyone was laughing at me. Some people pay to go to haunted houses or watch scary movies and I got scared for free. I will never forget that story. It's a good memory. I'm sure some of you are aghast but it was a good time had by all. My point is that some things are not so simple. While, qualitatively, people think all embarrassment is evil, maybe it's not. First of all, there are different levels of embarrassment. Humiliation and mortification are just higher levels of the same thing. I'm not interested in humiliating or mortifying any scouts over anything. Next, there are different responses to other people's embarrassment. It turns out that embarrassment is a good indication that a person is a good team player and interested in the well being of others. People also respond to the embarrassment of others based on their level of compassion. A kind person will have empathy for the embarrassed person and will likely help them in the future. All people tend to trust those that are easily embarrassed. Those that don't easily get embarrassed don't care much for social norms. Finally, learning to deal with embarrassment is an important skill for the shy. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is to get embarrassed. So, in my view, a little bit of embarrassment for a truly minor transgression can help the social dynamics all the way around and can be a teachable moment if controlled. Some scouts learn compassion and some learn to just let it go. I'm sure many of you disagree but we may have to agree to disagree on this. I'll admit that I'm talking to all of you a lot more about this than my PLC so I'll change that. Thanks for listening.

It doesn't matter. But, if the scout believes in God maybe these words will encourage him. Or maybe the person that wrote the scout oath was encouraged by those words. I'm not stating there's an if and only if relationship here. I'm sure the Dalai Lama has his own meaning and words that are similar to the scout oath. Whatever encourages people to be better people I'm all for. I brought this up because a bunch of people were talking about a phrase in the Bible that has deeper meaning than Pack's knees.

Here's one interpretation of In God's Image. It's not about comparing yourself to God. If everyone is created in God's image then the question is how should we treat everyone? Possibly the same way we treat God, and the same way God treats us. To help other people at all times comes to mind.

So I guess we can't have patrol competitions anymore because some patrol has to come in last place, and that's embarrassing. A year ago my SPL couldn't start a fire in the fire competition. He said that was the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to him as a scout. He went home and practiced how to build a fire. He's quite good at it now. The other night we had a knot tying competition and the older scouts (all star and above) were judges. I told them ahead of time if they didn't know the knots I'd embarrass them in front of the troop. Then I asked them if they needed any help with any of the knots. They took me up on it and we reviewed the bowline and sheet bend. Not only did they review the knots they did a great job with the younger scouts. Yes, embarrassment is a form of pain, but for anyone that thinks there is no pain used in learning, look at grades. Everyone knows who gets A's and who gets F's. It used to be that C was average. Well, we can't have average anymore because that would be embarrassing. And we wonder where, as many of you call it, "pencil whipped" Eagle scouts come from. Someone asked if the dancing in my troop actually helps. It does. Scouts will notice when they're missing something and they'll start asking around for it. And they'll get help finding it. Someone else asked if I'd dance for lost stuff at work. I'd be all over it as it would be a great way to bring some levity. Besides, I've done it before so it's not a big deal. My wife and I have a running joke about who has most recently lost reading glasses. How can you not laugh at it. I've danced for a couple of things in my troop and the scouts absolutely love it. I've also seen some scouts come out of their shell when they find out that dancing isn't nearly as hard as it looks. I hate to say this but it's a lot easier to be forced to dance for 5 seconds in front of a bunch of other boys then at the school gym where there are girls watching. Talk about embarrassment. The real issue here isn't whether singing or dancing is hazing, it's whether the other scouts understand Friendly, Courteous, and Kind. For the extroverted older scouts it's fair game to make fun of their style. I never see any scouts say anything but great things about how the younger scouts dance. I can see that malicious kids could use something like this to degrade someone, and maybe there are a lot of kids like that in troops that some of you have seen, but I don't see it in my troop. If I did I'd stop the dancing and we'd talk about the Scout Law right then. We've had our share of kids that think that just because the adults aren't around they can play Lord of the Flies, but that tends to stop quickly when the other scouts stop it, or bring it to me. From there we have a teachable moment. While there's certainly a chance for abuse, I find the benefits worth it. I hear over and over again that kids join our troop because our scouts are the most welcoming of the local troops. I've never had an issue with retention on JTE. Of course, I also allow scouts to climb on rocks that are more than waist high. I also allow scouts to run in camp. Yes, some of them get hurt. But how many threads have we had about allowing kids to get hurt once in a while? Kids cut themselves with knives and come back. Kids get cold and come back. And yes, kids get embarrassed, but they still come back.

When I started as SM our scouts left their stuff all over camp. Summer camp was a nightmare. I could ask them till I was blue in the face to pick up their stuff, to no avail. My son's 6tth grade teacher would dance with kids that were doing something they weren't supposed to do so I figured why not. An 11 year old dancing around the room with his teacher. Talk about embarrassment. We do a Mexican hat dance for lost items. The scouts sing the song and the boy dances. Any scout that tells the spl they can't find something before we do the dancing will not have to dance. Any scout that is looking shy is accompanied by the SPL. Adults have to dance as well. It is all done for the fun of everyone. There is no judging or requirements. If a scout just stands there while everyone else sings that's fine as well. To the people that say this is hazing, it can also be looked at as learning to deal with a problem. It also teaches the other scouts how to treat someone that has a problem. The boys in my troop treat the scouts with problems in a kind and courteous way. They watch the scout that's dancing because they know it's embarrassing. There is absolutely no malicious, repeated behavior, that is required to be called bullying. Does anyone play cross sticks around the fire, or any of a number of games where the only rule is to figure out the rules? Are you telling me that's not embarrassing? That's worse because you have to solve the puzzle before you can tease the other scouts that haven't figured it out. If scouts get really frustrated with it someone will pull them aside and give them a hint. And what about smoke shifters and sky hooks? Now I can't send kids out looking for left handed blue metallic telescoping smoke shifters because someone thinks it's hazing. You watch how the scout reacts and if it's gone too far you stop it. And all the scouts see you do that and they learn something. It's not hazing, it's problem solving. Is it honestly any different than burning the pancakes? You made a mistake, you take your lumps, and you move on. That's life. There's a point where we have to stop protecting them, and letting an 11 year old do a 5 second dance for a lost item is a good stepping stone. Now imagine the 17 year old that did his Eagle project without first getting all the signatures and being told he has to do the whole thing again. Talk about lumps. Part of my job is to create problems for scouts and patrols to solve. Then I help them make good decisions about how to solve them. This is just a fun way to do that.

Thanks for the feedback. In a way I've been doing this for a long time. An older scout never helps out, I sit down with him and tell him I'll never sign off unless he changes, his eyes get very large, and we have a discussion that leads to the scout helping out and eventually getting eagle. The only scout that has not made Eagle after a discussion like this is the one that brought weed to summer camp. Some scouts have grudgingly gone along but most have made the best of it and had a good time. At the same time I really don't like doing this because it's a lot of stress for me and the scout. That's why I like the idea of telling all scouts up front that as long as you're a candidate for star, life, or eagle then you should keep track of how you're giving service to the troop. That would make everything easier on everyone.

This might be a bit off topic but I am interested in this. I have a problem with POR's in general, for older scouts. Shouldn't they just be expected to help out with the program? If they have a POR then fine but that's such a short period. I despise the attitude of I don't need the POR so I don't have to help out. I'd like to ask every scout coming in for a SMC for a higher rank what he's done to help the troop. It would be great to see him pull out a list of things he's done beyond what the POR requires. Helped run an event, taught younger scouts some skills, mc'd a camp fire. I'd like to see them do something once a month. It doesn't have to be a lot. This falls under scout spirit. Is this OK to do?

I mentioned this before as well. I have a laptop and if I adjust the angle of the display I can make it easier to read. Someone mentioned adjusting contrast, but I can't do that on my display. I'm happy to see the spell check working. All in all, this is much nicer than previous versions.

Part of me agrees with Barry. In my prayer book is a quote in a footnote that I really like. It says Judaism is a matter of the heart. Reform Judaism views the messianic age as a goal we should work towards, where violence and poverty are no more. It's an impossible goal that is still worth striving for. That's a contradiction for the mind, but not the heart. So is following the scout law. The scout law is an ideal we'll never reach but that we should always strive for. So having an absolute such as God, even if we can never reach it, is good training that works well with the Scout Law. On the other hand I disagree with Barry. Interpretations of the meanings of the bible do change. The changes can not be quick and not just anyone can make changes to suit their needs. There is a process that slows changes down and requires consensus of past ideas and present scholars. Look at the interpretation of the story of Jacob. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims all have very different views of that story. Many Christians view Jacob as similar to Christ. Jews don't see it that way. Same God, different interpretations of what the Bible says.

I'll bump this topic. I like the idea of having levels of MBs. Scouts need increasing goals to keep them interested. By making them so an 13 year old can do them means by the time a scout is 17 he's bored with MBs and they are nothing but a time sink. Grouping them into water sports or STEM is something to think about. I like the idea of making First Class mean more than it does now. I'm not sure how to do that other than getting rid of FCFY and also doing better training for adults on what this means. Adding the old req to take your patrol on a campout would be great. I don't like the idea of removing Star, Life, and Eagle. The Eagle project in our troop is a great challenge that most scouts would not do unless they had to. I wouldn't mind rewriting some of the requirements regarding service and responsibility. Using the higher level MBs for higher ranks would be nice. I absolutely hate the idea of naming one of the levels PhD. That makes the Boy Scouts look like idiots to anyone that knows what a PhD is about. The "PhD of commissioner science" is embarrassing. Please use bronze, silver, and gold, or star, life, and eagle, or valley, timberline, and peak, or ....

There seems to be two simple ideas the adults need to understand. One is fully accepting the part of Reverent that includes respecting the beliefs of others. The second is understanding how fragile it is for the typical teenager. If it's explained well I think the majority of scouters will do well with it. My only fear is that National has this fantastic way of muddying up this subject. I'll tell you what, get AZMike to rewrite this topic for National and Pack can incorporate it into his satiric, online "How not to run a SMC."

Of course it's silly, but it's a start. I honestly doubt if a boy will look at a rock and say that's god. More likely he'll look across the ocean, or a mountain valley, or the Milky Way, and say there must be something. I'd say that's a great place to be. While I don't like the Rock or the Meatball, not accepting it puts us in the position of judging the beliefs of others. Given that religion can be such a long journey, I don't see judging a young man's beliefs as helping him if he's just getting started.

I agree with Fred. It's a whole lot easier to have a discussion if Religion of the Rock (Dome of the Rock, anyone?) is allowed. I'd much rather encourage a young man to figure it out on his own or with his family, with no strings attatched. Maybe a scout is sick of hearing fire and brimstone sermons and decides the Milky Way is more peaceful. So he comes up with his own beliefs. Years later, because of his history with scouts, he volunteers and meets a cleric that more closely matches his beliefs and he finds a congregation he likes. Worked for me. Sometimes it just takes faith in the boys.

We had a kid eat a peanut and when I asked him where his epi pin was he said he forgot to bring it. We were an hour from the nearest hospital. We gave him benadryl. He threw it up. We gave him more. Another kid did have an epi pin and I asked for it. He was smaller so I assumed the dose would be less. I was only going to use it if I really had to. We met an ambulance half way to the town and they took over from there. They told us we did the right thing. They also told us epi pins are not a solution, they are a temporary fix. I don't know why benadryl is not a standard first aid kit item. We put it in ours.

What kind of open ended questions do people ask boys to get them to talk about Reverent or Duty to God? Do you preface it with anything? For example: "I'm not here to tell you what to believe" or "different people have different ideas about this." Just as in first aid we shouldn't go beyond our training, but I don't mind the intent of these "changes." The only change I see is national micromanaging things.

This just seems like one more in a long line of micromanaging the program. Instead of helping leaders understand how to make the patrol method work we get JTE. Instead of helping us have a discussion that could honestly help a boy grow we get a vague check box. I would certainly like more guidance but I'm not seeing that. Some leaders will do well by this and some will abuse it. For the obvious situations most leaders will know how to handle it but there will certainly be cases where they are ill prepared. Unfortunately, the boys with the most to gain will likely be the ones that are hurt by this. It doesn't matter if it's Brave or Reverent, if a boy says he's not sure an adult has a delicate situation to work with.

My son aged out and I stayed. I enjoy it and am trying to get better at it. I still have fun, so I stay. We have some other adults that also stick around but don't do nearly as much as I do. Several have told me they will stick around as long as I do. If someone was showing the level of passion for this that I have I'd ask them if they wanted to be SM, and I'd give it to them if they wanted it. I've asked lots of people if they want to be SM and it's surprising how quickly they say no. I also am constantly asking parents what they think is right. Whenever they mostly disagree with me I'll ask more questions to find out what I'm doing wrong. Usually, however, the response is "you do what you think is right and I'll back you," or "my son will listen to you before he listens to me, so please just do what you think is right." I've never felt such responsibility. I'm also all ears when new people with new ideas show up. We learn to respect each other. So, I don't think it has anything to do with old guys are no good or new guys are better. I think it depends on the person.

We use 3 buckets by patrol: soap, rinse, bleach. Someone mentioned something about steritabs (?) to replace bleach. When we go on real cold campouts we will have a centralized place to heat water with a high output burner, as the stoves don't have enough heat to boil water when it's below zero and above 7000 feet. Our scouts are good at using the 3 buckets but for some reason they can't seem to keep the oil, soap, and bleach containers from making a mess out of their patrol boxes. The QM collects them after the campout and we put them in a different container. This drives me nuts and I'd rather say screw the lids on tight and wash the bottles after each use, or take your patrol box home and clean it there. Instead we have this arcane procedure to deal with and I can't believe anyone else have the problems we have. What kind of containers do people use for soap and oil? How do you deal with this?

I don't know why everyone thinks lodge is so great. If you can find old cast iron it's better because someone sanded down the bumps, which Lodge doesn't do. So I went and sanded down my skillet. It is much easier to use now. A big dirty mess but worth it. About flax seed oil. Be warned that's for seasoning, not for day to day use. Flax seed oil has a very low burn point, which is good for seasoning but bad for cooking. Some people have a lot of luck with flax seed oil for seasoning and some do not. I don't. Some people swear by saturated fats. Some swear by unsaturated fats. Seasoning cast iron is a whole subject on its own. I've never heard of using bee wax. I've only had cast iron go rancid if they aren't wiped out as clean as can be. But wax might be easier for scouts to work with.

1) Do you use Dutch ovens? Yes 2) Wood or charcoal? Mostly charcoal 3) Troop cook or patrol cook? Patrol 4) Size(s) used? Mostly 12" and 14", regular or deep 5) Uses: stove top style (Stews, soups, oatmeals) or Oven (breads, pies, cobblers, casseroles, pot roast, etc.) Yes. They make great skillets. 6) Do you own an aluminum Dutch oven? No 7) Do you use DO's on activities other than plop camping? Also on rivers where we don't have to portage 8) Aluminum foil liners or clean as you go? That's a religious fight. If it's my DO I'd never use a liner, but I take care of my gear. Troop gear is not so well taken care of. 9) Oil or wax? Wax? What are you, an Egyptian mummy? 10) Troop use any other cast iron other than the Dutch Oven? Skillets

Any chance you can increase the contrast on the dates of threads? It's faded first if the mouse isn't over the thread box, and second just because. Consequntly it's not easy to read.

I was a scout brat, in the Transatlantic Council. I hung out with all the Army brats. One size does not fit all, either good or bad. This is where bad things come from.

That's a great photo. It should accompany the article that is sent to the local newspaper about the cool things scouts do. Look mom! Rock climbing in a missile silo!

After experience we look for two things in a treasurer. The first is competence at working with a zillion details and keeping them organized. The other is transparency, or making it so everyone can understand those details. That helps catch errors, including the malicious kind. We didn't have malicious problems but we did go from being very flush to almost broke in 2 months. Accounting errors that caused all sorts of head aches. If your pack is large and lots of money is coming and going then I'd push for one person doing it, assuming you can find the one person that's capable. It has nothing to do with whether you trust the CC, it's just that he has plenty of other things to do. Oh, and welcome to the forums.

We had a PLC meeting this week and I kept it in terms of talking about what the scouts did, or will do, to deliver scouting to their patrols. So, it was completely about the people and not the usual who has to do what. It raised the level of discussion and their interest immensely. Call it leadership if you want but it was really about keeping the scouts focused on the real goal. I "redirected" anyone that said something that wasn't about their patrol. If a scout said he was going to make phone calls I asked him what the end purpose was and that making phone calls is only a tool unless his patrol said they like talking on the phone.