MaScout

Great ideas everyone! Thank you for taking time to respond. I haven't replied before this, as I was waiting for the input to drizzle out. Before I respond to your thoughts, I thought I'd share this website I found with more activity suggestions. It's worth looking into if you're considering this activity. http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/night/index.htm The location would most likely be in our pasture. We have a nice mixture of grassland and trees. So we should be able to avoid the problem of a curfew and law enforcement run-ins. First-aid & scouting the area for possible hazards is a good idea, as well as reminding them about the buddy system. Astronomy is a SUPER idea. We have a family who are absolute astronomy nuts and enjoy sharing with the Troop. I like the trust walk idea, too. We should have plenty of time for many activities, depending on when they want to go to sleep. What do you do with the dry cleaner bag balloons? Helium I presume? Do they hold the helium very well? It sounds intriging. A place AWAY from the activities for sleeping is a good idea I hadn't thought of...so the tired ones can crash earlier. Patrol only or adults along? I hadn't really thought about it. I suppose I would consider having some adults in the area who would be available to check on the Scouts or for help if needed. What take do you all have on this? I'm open to suggestion. Thanks again for all your wonderful input! Ma Scout

Alas & Alak -- it got warmer. The quinze is still standing, and they could still sleep in it, but the ceiling is getting lower & lower & they gave it up. For some reason they didn't think they wanted to wake up with the roof on top of them. But they had a GREAT time! They even got their picture in the local paper. Another plug for Scouting! (wink, wink)

Here in the midwest, we have recently been buried under a foot and a half of snow. A lot of things had to shut down...mail couldn't be delivered, courthouses were closed, school was called off. Several of my sons' friends called telling my boys how bored they were. My children had NO sympathy and just told them to go outside and play! What did my boys do? They thought back to one of their favorite winter (Scout) outings when we built snow quinzes and decided to build one in our front yard. I don't know how many of you have built them, but with only two boys, they worked all day. Then they slept in it several nights and had a wonderful time. When their friends were envious, they just told them to THINK, then act, and they would have a great time. No point to my story...just sharing what a wonderful basis Scouts can be for a young person's life. I'm so happy my boys would rather do something like this than the many other troubles they could be getting into! Ma Scout

Try these ideas to get started: 1)Share equipment! 2)Lightweight choices >Lightweight pots >Lightweight sleeping bag >3/4 length sleeping pad vs. full length >Cookstove 3)Purify water vs. carrying it 4)Dehydrated food vs. fresh or canned, & repackage it 5)Tents: Aluminum vs. fiberglass poles, lightweight tent stakes 6)Small Plastic flashlight vs. heavy/large metal one 7)Leave toys & electronics at home. Cards, etc., are a better choice 8)Foam pad vs. air bed or cot 9)Reduce clothing quantities (One change of lightweight pants, one spare shirt, changes of socks, one change of underwear) 10)Jacket/coat selection & double as pillow 11)Shoeswear your boots, have a lightweight pair of camp shoes along 12)Limit size of pocketknife (i.e. small one vs. heavy multi-tool for each) Good Luck! Ma Scout

We answer it more in terms of which lashings are used for which jobs...like what you would use a tripod lashing for or when do you use a square lashing as opposed to a diagonal lashing for example.

There are many valid points made. I agree that the Scout should be held accountable for HIS actions (or inaction). However, if something happens that is NOT his fault, he is not the one who should be punished. What to do about that pesky SM? No, you can't really "punish" them. But you CAN talk to them. Get the SM & Committee on the same page. Often it is just a matter that the SM doesn't know the expectations or how to implement them. How can the committee or ASM's help him/her meet those expectations? I'm glad OGE started this thread because I wanted to respond to several other threads, but didn't know where to start... Our Troop has close to a 100% success rate at BoR's. But that is because they are PREPARED before they go there! The skills are learned and reviewed several times. Sometimes the new scouts are perturbed because they "already did that" requirement. We explain that it says LEARN, not just do it once. During the SM conference, they review the salient points with the SM. Sometimes the young ones really don't remember what they did for a service project...they did it, but everything is so new and "busy" for them, it all kind of runs together. What does it hurt to remind them to look at the note in their book? It usually all comes flooding back... It is the SPL & SM's jobs to make sure the Scout knows and performs his POR. That happens. We train for all positions. If a Scout isn't performing, our SPL is right on it and relieves him of his POR, replacing him with someone who will do it. We've only had a few notable "delays". Our boys are asked to be in uniform for Conferences. Once, a Scout showed up for a BOR without a neckerchief. (Troop standard is NOT required.) The board delayed the rank based on "Scout Spirit". The SM reminded them that the troop doesn't require it. They said they thought they should. SM visited with the adults and reminded them they aren't to change policy midstream, and how unfair this was to the Scout. After review, they saw the fallacy of their actions and advanced the Scout. One time we had the SM conference for Eagle, then the candidate stole $300 (no decimal points) from the SM. That caused a considerable delay. When things got righted, he had a 2nd SM Conf, followed by BOR. This was NOT just a 3-week delay! One other time, a lad showed up for a campout with a hangover. There was a SM Conference/Board of Review held...but not for rank advancement! Got that cleared up, too. MBC's -- we are certainly in a different position. Our Troop recruits and trains virtually all the MBC's we use, so we have QC in place. (Our District is too large to utilize District much.) At summer camp we encourage them to take MB's not available locally, like basketry or leatherwork. We are fortunate to have an AWESOME shooting sports program at our local camp (run by a retired State Patrolman). Since that isn't one that is easy to do individually, they are encouraged to attend that one. We discourage them from working on required merit badges at camp. MB University's here are almost unheard of, but when they do occur, are much smaller than the ones you all describe...we have QC in place first because of smaller numbers, but we also require attendance at least twice -- once to start it, time to work on it, and the second visit to complete it. Social promotions should not happen. Scouts should be held accountable, but not be punished for sloppy adult behavior. Adults should be held accountable. Problems should be corrected before they become an issue, but how do you know what the problems are before they become a problem? Where are the lines? What to do, what to do? Oh, so many problems...wish the solutions were as easy to come up with. But if we all keep working with the boys' future in mind, keep bouncing ideas off each other, keep fighting the good fight, we WILL make a difference!

Some may object to anything being said at all, but I think most object to HOW it is said. If a correction is pointed out discreetly and politely, there isn't a problem. But those who are unkindly dubbed "uniform police" aren't generally the ones who are discreet and polite. Remember: There are always at least two ways to say something. And one of them is kind...

Tut, tut. Must we try to place a value on all of Scouting across the nation (world) based on our limited experiences? In the thread from which this was spun, JKC said, There's a simple way to get to know these fine people (MBCs): They're the ones who attend District Roundtable. My question is, so...if they don't attend District Roundtable, they are not fine people/not the ones you want to send your Scouts to? You must live in a waaaaaay different situation than at least I do. We have VERY GOOD Merit Badge counselors. And very few of them attend Roundtable. Why not? Is it because they aren't interested in the boys? NO! We live in a very rural community. To attend District Roundtable is a 150-200 mile roundtrip on a week night. (Incidentally, we hold THREE roundtables, at various places in our District. The mileage still holds.) We are fortunate when the Scoutmasters attend. We certainly dont expect to see our MBCs there. I seldom make it. Does that mean I am not a quality leader? (I am currently a Webelos Den Leader, SM, Venture CC, and on District Training Committee.) NO. Could I benefit from attending RT? Yes. But when I am as involved as I am on a local level and have three active children of my own, whose activities fall on every day of the week, and when we are actively involved in our church, do I put RT high on my priority list? NO. Especially not when I need to drive that far and take an entire evening away for my family. Sodo we expect our MBCs to attend? Certainly not! Are they still fine people? Can they still do a good job? YES! Do we need to monitor closely from home? Yes. Many of our MBCs come from parents within our troop. However, we have several others who have no affiliation with Scouts aside from being a MBC. For example, our Pottery MBC is the High School Art teacher, the Golf MBC is the Golf Coach at our HS, Theater & Public Speaking are handled by our Drama Coaches. They have no other association with Scouts. They are MBCs as a courtesy to us and to help us. To expect them to attend monthly Roundtable so far away is to eliminate quality counselors from the pool. We explain two-deep youth AND leaders to them and train them locally. Beyond this, yes, we monitor things. But with distances like they are, if we dont have MBCs in our own small town, our boys generally dont have the MB available. While I realize and understand your paranoia is way high right now, that is no excuse to lump all counselors into the same pile. MaScout

Showering has been a non-issue in our Troop since the first year we went to summer camp. That first year, we had a boy who wouldn't shower. The other Scouts assured he took a shower. Since then, when we put out our Summer Camp information, it states clearly that all the boys will take showers daily. We don't discuss it. A time is set and the entire troop goes to the shower house at the same time. The adult leaders wait outside and escort them back. That's all there is to it. We don't present it as an option, just as reality. They don't question it. (And we don't say it is BSA policy. )

Our council is relatively small in number, but offers Woodbadge every year. At least 2 years out of every 3 it is offered as a non-Sunday course to accomodate our LDS units. I happen to be very fond of this approach. I am not LDS, but I hold my Sundays very dear. I resent being asked to give it up for Scouts or anything else. Besides, isn't it a good idea to try to make our training (as well as any of our BSA endeavors) available to everyone?

Whoa! Way cool, dudes & dudettes! Now I can see there are new posts from the home forum page, but I can't see them when I go to read them. Maybe they are being beamed through cyberspace? Or perhaps I can't read them until real time catches up with forum time?

Technically, no. But if the program really is about the boys, I would certainly want to. Does your pack use Packmaster? They have a Scout history form you can just print out. If not, your Scout Office should have printed forms you can get. Otherwise, just jot it down on a sheet of paper, sign & date it, then send it with the Scout or Custodial parent.

Training is a multi-faceted concern... There is a set of prescribed material that National says should be included in every training session. Is it always presented? Is it always presented in an interesting way? Is the material itself always interesting? Unfortunately the answer to all of these is often NO. Newbie, if this is the material you missed, you might ask the district trainer (or your Pack Trainer) if you could borrow the syllabus to read through for better absorption & understanding. Perhaps mention it better matches your learning style to read it, than to say it wasn't taught. (Incidentally, Den Leader Specific has some great material in it.) Depending on the group, what the participants want to come away with might change. When I serve as a trainer, I try to go through the required stuff as efficently as possible, leaving plenty of time for Q&A, but not to the detriment of the training itself. Often the participants want to know how to make the program "work". This is NOT covered in what National sends out. This comes with experience. Hopefully the training team has this. This is good to cover during Q&A. I have some "Sample Plans" I sometimes share with participants. This isn't a hard & fast rule, but gives the floundering den leader an idea of how to put a program together. Quality of training has been hotly discussed in this forum before. It can be GREAT! But it can also be dismal. I am so sorry yours was not-so-good. I've attended both. The bad made me try harder to deliver the good when I train. Sometimes I still fail to deliver a great training. But feedback from people with experiences like yours help me to improve. I hope your trainers are open-minded and will listen and hear!

Back with the old JLTC, the SM's had to sign approval for attendance. With the NYLT, it is the same. We have HIGH attendance with boys put on a waiting list each year. We are from a very rural area and our council puts on one training a year, with a limit of 64 participants. (Our district alone covers over 35000 square miles.) All the youth travel quite a distance (I'm talking up to 200+ miles one way) for the privilige of attending. I believe the approval requirement is partly for number control. But I also think it is to assure "quality control" if you will. I personally talk to each of our boys who are interested in attending and let them know what the expectations are. If I feel a Scout is too immature to handle it, I ask him to wait another year, but try to make it HIS idea! That week is VERY intense -- at least in our Council. If he is physically or emotionally immature, he will have a terrible experience. That's not what we want. We want him to come home SOOOOOO excited and pumped that he can't help but infuse new life into the troop!

YES! It DOES work! "It" being the Patrol Method. I had just about given up in despair of our troop ever truly getting this one figured out, then tonight, while the patrols met, the Scout leaders taught Scout skills! No adult input. No adults telling them to do it, how to do it, etc., etc. (With the exception of my husband, whom the SPL asked to sit down and be quiet several times...I had to remove him. LOL) Just a happy note to brighten your days. I know it won't always be like this, but for tonight... YAY!

First, I want to let all of you know I received an assessment form much like this MANY years ago at a Pow-Wow. Times have changed, so I changed the assessment to suit US. I will send it to anyone who is interested, but would encourage each of you to look it over carefully and change it to suit your situation! Also make sure you talk to the Webelos about what they are seeing...Troop meetings SHOULD NOT look like a Cub Scout meeting! Not all the questions will they have answers to. But it gives a starting point for the youth and their parents to know what they should be looking for. That said, I will be glad to email it to any of you who want it. Just pm me with your email address, & I'll send it. We can't send attachments through scouter.com, and to be quite honest, I'm not computer savvy enough to put it on a web page or anything like that! Ma Scout

Aaaah. It's still no bed of roses, but it is nice when things start to come around, isn't it?

Kittle, Drat! It is tough when there is only one choice, and it is not a good fit. We'll probably lose this boy, too. That's sad. I do understand however. We live in a rural area, and really don't have much of a choice unless we look at an hour's drive each way. To date, our local troop seems a good fit for most. Good Luck! Ma Scout

Thought of something else...oftentimes big companies are "required" to make charitable contributions. They offer sizable grants to various groups in the communities they serve. You can ask at large companies if they offer grants, and if they do, how you apply for them. We routinely receive grants from our local electric and gas company. There are others out there who offer something similar. Check with any local fast food places -- ours is super about supporting the young people in our home town and have even sponsored boys to camp. Will your grocery stores offer a discount for food purchased for camp outs? It never hurts to ask. The worst that can happen is that they say no. (Asking can be HARD if you are like me. But I keep reminding myself that is for THE BOYS! That makes it easier.) And we DID get equipment donated from Wal-Mart AND K-Mart. When we started a new troop, we used all borrowed or donated equipment. It's amazing what can be done with "stuff" out of a variety of kitchens and closets!

Do you have any other adults to help you monitor this? That would be a big help! Even if you can recruit some older boys, they could be of great assistance. I think I'd start by splitting the large group into several smaller ones, no more than 10 to a group. Ideally, even a little smaller. Next, I'd work on #1, Option C. Have them tell the others in the group the story. If you can have a monitor in each group, they can discuss the differences they learned. For #2, Option A, I'd provide paper and markers. In the same small groups, I'd have them work on a pictograph describing themselves and present it within the small group. For #6, I'd pre-select some simple skills, which would take a minimum of materials and time, like First Aid or knot-tying. Maybe have 5 or 10 different skills on notecards that you hand out. Then each Scout would teach another Scout in his group, and your group monitors could proctor it. For #9, is there any way you could get a radio DJ, TV sportscaster, or similar type person to come in and speak to the entire group? Not ideal solutions, but a start. Good Luck! Ma Scout

I always wear mine, but your situation IS different! If it is uncomfortable or doesn't look very good, I'd pass. I think it should be evident why you aren't wearing it! Do you just visit one troop? Do you have a form for the boys to compare and evaluate the troops you visit? We have one. If you want it, PM your email address me...I'll check back shortly, and I'll send it post haste.

And I would add...I am very cautious about "taking sides" with the Scout, too!

I'm with Oren on this. I continue to contact all parents. If there is a calendar, one goes to both homes. I am very up-front with the parents and let them know if they have secrets, they shouldn't tell me, because I can't always remember what I should say to who. I refuse to "take sides", unless it is the Scout's. I am there primarily for the boy...

I understand where you're coming from! But I also thought some of the uniform police here would blow a gasket. To join an established troop is economically unfeasible, as you would then have to DRIVE there, and there is no money for gas. To purchase the full uniform is NOT an individual option, as the boys simply do not have the money for it. Young people in rural areas do not have the option of "getting a job", because there just aren't any for a 12-year-old to get! Many of the posters here simply do not understand what it is like to live like this. They keep saying, "Well, for sports..." Well, I understand. Because there IS NO "for sports"! These boys play high school football in the only pair of shoes they own. They wear the same shoes for football, to school, and to church! They don't spend money on sports. If it costs, they simply don't participate. Sometimes these families literally go to bed hungry! They sleep in one room in the winter to reduce heating costs. It is difficult to wrap your mind around proud poverty if you haven't experienced it. But it is real. And it doesn't allow for extras. And it doesn't allow for hand-outs. Uniforming is ONE of the methods of Scouting. If it comes down to it, and I have to determine if it is more important to have a boy in full uniform or to have him in Scouts, I'll pass up the full uniform. To the uniform cops--I apologize if this upsets you, but I DO NOT apologize for my stand. Scouting is for and about the boys! We run a "uniform drive" every few years, and store those uniforms for loan. We advertise in the local paper and generally get good response. We ask the boys to have a shirt. We try to help them get one. Sometimes, especially for Cub den meetings, we have them wear Scout T-Shirts. These can sometimes be purchased from the Council office as "leftovers" from Day Camp for $1-$2. We keep a few pairs of shorts in assorted waist sizes. Just a few pairs will fit most boys with a belt, and you don't have to worry about the length. Whoever has a need of them uses them, then returns them. We don't use uniform pants for many things...Eagle Board of Review or a Council Training. In my honest opinion (IMHO), if the boys are all uniformed similarly (uniform shirt and jeans), they look fine. Sure, the olives would be nice, but so would steak for supper. I would save the limited resources to purchase merit badge books and Scout handbooks. You might also check with your District or Council office and see if they have any provisions for helping uniform underprivileged Scouts. Our District office will pay for a shirt, patches, and a handbook if needed. I try to take care of this locally whenever I can, because 95% of our Scouts can't afford it, and I don't want to be there with my hand out all the time. Hang in there! Good luck if you decide to pursue the full uniform...I admire you for wanting to help the boys like this. But if you decide to spend the limited resources on other things, don't let the uniform cops send you running! I realize I didn't offer suggestions for fund-raisers, but will a fund-raiser really work if you are in an economically depressed area? Wal-Mart (if there is one nearby) will sometimes "match" a fundraiser up to $250 if you hold it at their store. K-Mart & Wal-Mart will often donate supplies if you ask. Your trips might be "meager" compared to what some here are accustomed to, but it is an opportunity these boys wouldn't otherwise experience. Hit up some of those stores for supplies, ask your families what they can spare out of their kitchens, camp where they don't charge you to be there, kids bring the food from home, etc. It can be done on a very low budget. Well...I'll get off my soapbox. Sorry all! But I am very sensitive about this issue, and most people really, truly cannot understand. Scout Ma

Or as it sounds in this case, it may be a viable alternative to gently remind the UC that he/she can't hold a unit position since they are the UC. That way the friction within the unit would be lessened.