Lisabob

Hi Mark, I'm sure others will have their take on this, but here's mine, for what it might be worth. There are a surprising number of boys out there with stories that are similar to what you describe. I agree with you that the alternate requirements aren't really a great fit for this situation although I do know of some cases where parents successfully pursued this for their boys. While being very sympathetic to your son, I also would say that I've known a lot of boys who did overcome similar fears in order to earn 2nd and 1st class, and/or to be able to participate fully in other troop water activities like canoe trips. It takes time, patience, and perseverance, and also working with someone who really knows how to teach swimming, and who is sensitive to the issue, and who has the boy's trust before ever starting. Often parents, however well-intentioned or skilled we are, are not the right person because we're too close. So, in your shoes, I think I would look for someone who can play those other roles for your son. You might want to start getting to know adults in the local troops, find out who are the swimming merit badge counselors, and start quietly talking with them. Often, the local swimming MB folks are also the ones who help kids with the 2nd/1st class aquatic requirements. I know the guy who is usually the swimming MB counselor for our troop is exceptionally good at working with kids like your son and I have seen him work what seem like miracles with boys who you would think would never be able to meet those requirements. Not all swimming MB counselors will be so good though, so finding someone like that who is also active with a decent local troop could be important (lets the boy get to know him at meetings and ordinary campouts in non-threatening, non-water settings to build trust). The other thing I'd consider is looking around at local learn-to-swim programs. Not that a typical group swim class would be an appropriate fit for your child, but talk to the program director and ask if they have expertise teaching people like your son. Sometimes you'll find that they are great resources. However you approach this, I hope you won't let the aquatic requirements dissuade your son from joining boy scouts. There are many fun things he can do, and a lot of learning and personal growth to be had in boy scouts regardless of a boy's rank. And unlike cubs, where advancement tends to be done at a group pace, in boy scouts advancement is very individually paced. There will always be things for him to do in scouting even if he never gets in the water.

There's hypocrisy on all sides of the abortion issue, I think. For those who refuse to fund organizations that also provide abortion, the hypocrisy is often evident in that these same organizations supply non-abortive family planning information that could have the effect of LOWERING abortion rates. In some cases, there are also those with moral objections to the use of contraceptives (esp. the pill) as a means of family planning, and so perhaps that's the hang-up. But a lot of pro-life folks I know have little or no objection to contraceptives, yet they would refuse funding to organizations that would supply those contraceptives because those orgs. also discuss abortion. In some ways I think that such a stance is counter-productive, as women who have no access to family planning are probably far more likely to end up having abortions anyway. There's hypocrisy, too, among many who refuse funding for programs that include abortion, yet who also are willing to do little or nothing to help struggling mothers care for their children, or to improve economic and social conditions to the point where women wouldn't be so likely to need abortions in the first place. Not saying this is universally true of all abortion opponents, but it is certainly true sometimes. I have never met anyone who thinks abortions are an absolute good. I've met many pro-choice advocates who would like to see abortions be far less common. It saddens me sometimes that that interest, which I think most pro-choice and pro-life folks do share, can't be maximized when it comes to policy.

My son's troop camped last weekend. Temps were single digits during daytime and fell to about -5 at night. Not especially windy, but very cold. Now my son was ok, if not exactly cozy. But one young scout went home. My son said the boy had packed a lightweight cheap-o sleeping bag, cotton sweatpants, and tennis shoes. Another boy nearly went home. My son said his main issue was being very cold at night. He is a very small (short, skinny) boy and he apparently had an extra-large adult sized sleeping bag, and didn't know/understand that he needed to take some steps to reduce the amount of space he needed to heat up with his limited body heat. One adult went to the emergency room and was treated for hypothermia. She had camped with the troop previously, but not in tents in the middle of winter. Also, given the rules about who can share tents, we women often end up tenting by ourselves, which in this case could have resulted in a much greater problem if her situation hadn't been caught before everybody went to sleep (buddy system isn't in place when you tent alone). Happily, she's fine, and the boy who went home has already gone shopping for a more suitable bag so I think he (and his dad) learned from this without suffering lasting damage, but I've been thinking about whether this was avoidable. There's much to be said for learning from experience, but there are also times when it is dangerous, or when a really bad experience results in boys just quitting instead. I know the troop does discuss appropriate cold weather gear and packing. I don't know how effectively they teach this, and I haven't been to a lot of troop meetings this fall/winter to see what skill is like these days. Of course, if people don't listen or follow instruction, they can still be in trouble even with excellent instruction. Thankfully this was just car camping in an easily accessible location and everybody is ok. But...what do you do in your troops to ensure that people who go on camp outs in demanding weather conditions are really prepared?

OK help me with the jello idea, which just sounds nasty to me. What's in jello except a quick sugar rush, which isn't likely to help for long? I guess I'm finding it hard to believe there's anything nutritious about a packet of grape jello. I love reading through your ideas. My son was camping in zero sub-zero weather last weekend,and he'll be doing a winter backpacking trek next month. It's been fun, talking with him about what he has learned about winter cooking over the years, and also about some of the new ideas you guys are giving him. He nixed the potato flakes (doesn't like em) but did take note of several others. He liked the pre-cook and heat ideas (stew, lasagna, etc). Does it really have to be vacuum bagged? Wouldn't a regular (heavy duty) ziploc work ok? Snacks, I see nobody listed jerky. I'm wondering - does it freeze too hard to bite/chew if it is really cold out? (I don't like jerky so haven't ever tested this but that's my son's current plan for snack food for his backpacking trek)

Interesting, both in terms of the dates and in terms of Beaver's experience with younger scouts in attendance. Thanks for the info on both fronts, guys.

vol, have you really looked at that series? One reason I found it interesting is because it DID discuss the drawbacks in other systems. No system is perfect and I think nearly everyone agrees that our current system is far from perfect. What I understand to be a common criticism of the way we're currently doing things is that it is such a mish-mash. Gov't regulations that do exist are frequently patchwork and have been put in place largely as a reaction to a specific set of instances, rather than a broad plan. Add to that the typically incremental nature of policy change in the US and what you get is a system that meets relatively few people's actual needs or desires, but that lingers on until it is so clearly broken that practically everybody screams for change. And I think we're about at that point now. Personal responsibility is no bad thing and you're right that this is one of the values that has made our society great. On the other hand, using the mantra of "personal responsibility," as some do, to ignore the suffering of others, and also to ignore the cost to the rest of society that comes with having so many people who lack access to basic health care, is deplorable and short-sighted.

At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge, said the gentleman, taking up a pen, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir. Are there no prisons? asked Scrooge. Plenty of prisons, said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. And the Union workhouses? demanded Scrooge. Are they still in operation? They are. Still, returned the gentleman, I wish I could say they were not. The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then? said Scrooge. Both very busy, sir. Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course, said Scrooge. Im very glad to hear it. Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude, returned the gentleman, a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for? Nothing! Scrooge replied. You wish to be anonymous? I wish to be left alone, said Scrooge. Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I dont make merry myself at Christmas and I cant afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there. Many cant go there; and many would rather die. If they would rather die, said Scrooge, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides excuse me I dont know that. But you might know it, observed the gentleman. Its not my business, Scrooge returned. Its enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other peoples. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen! I don't think anybody could get this much clearer than Charles Dickens did.

Today on the news I heard the president of an insurance company called Healthnet arguing for major reform in our health insurance system, including more (and different) government involvement. He said something along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing now) "the markets don't reward broken sectors of the economy" so we might as well make changes while the opportunity is ripe. Kind of interesting that even a for-profit health insurer doesn't see the current system as either desirable or sustainable. Anyway, for those who want to look at some actual information, rather than conjecture about what various other countries have, you might enjoy this series from NPR last summer. They took a look at health care in several comparable European countries. I like the reports; they include both good and bad features of each system. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91972152 Be sure to check out the comparison chart, here: http://www.npr.org/news/specials/healthcare/healthcare_profiles.html Of course, if some folks want to continue to debate based on gut feeling, hey, be my guest. And for those who take a hard-line "personal responsibility" approach to the fact that 45 million of your fellow Americans have no health insurance - yeah, let us know how you feel in the event of a major infectious outbreak. Germs are notorious for not respecting people's senses of personal responsibility. There's a good reason why we talk about PUBLIC health.(This message has been edited by lisabob)

Gosh I hope nobody took my post in the original thread the wrong way. I certainly didn't intend to suggest that parents shouldn't ever be part of the journey. I suppose I was thinking about some specific parents I've met though, who just can't seem to let their kids flex those wings. I know one parent, all of his kids are Eagles, but they've never been to summer camp or (as far as I know) even a weekend camp out unless he was there too. I've heard from a BUNCH of parents how this or that activity is too expensive for the whole family to participate or it clashes with the adults' work schedules and plans, and yeah, that's true in some cases...so don't send the whole family to every last boy scout activity then...(but that advice often doesn't go over well, imagine that.)

basementdweller, just something to think about. If your son is a cub now, he probably would not meet the requirements to attend (or it would be a near thing) in 2010 anyway. Boys must be either 12 or finished with 6th grade by July 1, 2010, and they must be at least 1st Class rank. Supposing that your boy is a Webelos II right now and will cross into a troop next month, he would have about a 15 month window to adjust to boy scouting, hit the age and rank requirements, and get ready to attend jambo. That seems like a tall order to me. I've never been to a jambo, but from what I hear it can be a pretty intense experience, probably not that well suited to our youngest/newest scouts in most cases. So, your boy would more likely be looking at attending the next jambo, probably in 2015 if they continue with the 5-year cycles. Chances are good that he'd be 16 or 17 by that time and that makes it a totally different scenario. Not to mention that it gives him several years to save some money toward the cost.

Gee vol, I dunno about your claim re: the media rolling over and playing dead. This morning on Face the Nation there was pretty detailed discussion about the bombing of Pakistan. I didn't see Meet the Press but I expect they discussed it too. It was covered on NPR on Friday. I found this article on MSNBC's website regarding the attacks: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28811723/ It was discussed in the NY Times yesterday. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those some pretty typical examples of press outlets that are often derisively labeled as liberal? And yet, they all seem to have covered the same story you are claiming that they are ignoring. And, just in case we're forgetting, this policy of cross-border raids into Pakistan was in place during the last year of the Bush admin as well, and caused considerable concern then too. So, I don't see where you can say that there has been no coverage of these actions and blame it on a "liberal" media conspiracy. That said, I do tend to agree with you about the deplorable state of "reporting" on the cable news networks much of the time. But that's not a partisan thing, as it is easy to find examples of poor news coverage on both Fox and MSNBC (either side of the political spectrum) and CNN too, and it has been going on for a good bit longer than the last year. But if you look at the more serious news shows, you will get more serious discussion of real issues.

Basementdweller, I agree that costs are very high for jambos. My son is going to this jambo for about $2500 when all is said and done. It will be the only one he'll be able to attend as a youth, but even so we talked about the cost and how we'd swing it for a long time, and included him in that discussion every step of the way. We (parents) paid the initial $110 out of pocket ($10 online registration, $100 to council to reserve his spot). He will be fundraising the rest of it and it has been made clear that he should not expect his sole (or even primary) fundraising supporters to be family members. He's going to be saving birthday and Christmas money too, and is talking about getting a summer job this year as well. For us, like for many people, that's the only way we can do it. What's more, we want him to understand that "a scout is thrifty" has real meaning, especially in hard times. As for tallying the cost, I'm not sure I understand the large number of adults I've talked to, who seem to only consider jambo if they can go with their sons. With some exceptions for, say, unusual medical issues, I kind of think that if a boy is not ready to do something like jambo without his parent present, then he probably shouldn't be considering attending that event. Not to mention that opportunities for adult attendance with the council contingents is very limited anyway. Of course sharing the experience would be very enjoyable and I understand that many parents use scouting as a vehicle for doing things together with their kids. But maybe there are times when it is better to just let junior go without his parent in tow. Save 2 or 3 thousand dollars and let him tell you all about it when he gets back. Not to mention that it cuts the fundraising pressure in half.

eisley, I hardly think that the focus on an individual is novel. Camelot, anyone? (And he wasn't the first either, just one of the better known recent examples) People have the right to say what they want about Obama and they certainly have the right to disagree with his policies. I think Rush (and others) sounds rather silly because, jeeze, the guy has hardly been president long enough to do anything yet and here he's blathering about failure. Hey, whatever. The difference between the Obama administration and the Bush administration here is that while Bush's henchmen tried to turn any expression of disagreement (whether well-reasoned policy concerns or just angry left-wing rants) into a question of patriotism, I have not yet heard Obama do the same to his opponents. Instead, he talks about why he disagrees with their ideas - not why they're bad Americans. In fact, heck, I believe he hosted a dinner in McCain's honor earlier this week. Dissent is a part of American culture. So let Rush rant. Intelligent people on both sides will recognize his hot air for what it is, dismiss it, and get back to serious discussion about serious problems.

I hear you about the scheduling issues, but honestly, many troops are just as bad as what you are describing. Maybe not YOUR troop, but many. And as to the notion that we in scouting don't expect the kind of commitment that sports or band or other extra-curriculars do, well that can be true, but then try to look at it from an outsider's view. Imagine the harried band director, trying to prepare for an upcoming performance. He knows most of the troops in town have their meetings on Tuesdays and lots of scouts are in the band too so he schedules the concert for some other night. But oops, JLT, PLC, Den Chiefs, Den Chief Training, extra patrol meetings, camp outs, camporees, other district activities, OA, parades, community service, helping with Eagle projects, merit badge "university," meetings with merit badge counselors, popcorn show&sells, and who knows what else suddenly start popping up as reasons why this kid or that kid can't be present and before you know it, half the brass section is absent. Suddenly the band director is tearing out his hair and griping about the never-ending list of commitments that we scouters expect from the kids. We may know that not every kid is going to be involved in every one of the above, but from an outside perspective, I'm willing to bet that a lot of adults involved in other youth programs don't quite see it that way when they look at what scouting "requires" of its members. As for how things are in my son's troop: we have boys from at least 6 different high schools and 6 more middle schools. When the new cross-overs join in Feb, we add to that 3-8 elementary schools, at least until the end of the school year when they move on to various middle schools. There is simply no way in the world we're ever going to be able to coordinate with every school function, or even the majority of them. In fact, we don't especially try to most of the time. We do attempt to schedule around school breaks for one of the middle schools, but that's only because we meet at that school and can't get in when it is closed. You can't do much about the fact that the boys in the troop have many different options available to them, and generally, something is going to conflict with someone's schedule no matter what you do. You can either gripe about that, or you can work on making your program fun and relevant, and understanding how scouting fits into the lives of each kid in your troop at any given time.

THe attitude I see here from some folks makes me cringe. This sense of moral superiority isn't likely to win over many boys to the program, even assuming you're right about the relative merits of different programs (and in some cases, I think that assumption is based on limited personal experience with programs besides scouting). Belittling other activities that, evidently, boys in your troops have freely chosen to be part of, isn't likely to win those boys back to the fold. Sending a message to others that they're making inferior choices if they chose something other than scouting on a given day or weekend (and that's the message I am hearing from many of you), isn't going to convince people of the rightness of your cause. For the record, my son's high school includes fine arts, performing arts, applied technology (everything from robotics to welding), and PE grades in the GPA. There is no "core" GPA and everything is weighted the same. State law requires students to have at least a year of arts education, a semester of PE, and a semester of health, in addition to "core" academic subject requirements, in order to graduate high school. The large public university where I teach offers scholarships and admission to our honors college based primarily on GPA - and we don't filter out any of those classes mentioned above. There are, of course, circumstances where that might happen, but Beavah's assertion that these grades simply don't account for anything but fluff is erroneous in many cases. The bigger point isn't - and shouldn't be - grades and scholarships and lines on a college application though. The bigger point is that we ought to be encouraging boys to develop their talents in various aspects of their lives, concordant with scouting! Some of the posts I'm reading here do seem to make this an either/or decision, denigrating the value of other activities, and by extension, the scouts who sometimes choose those activities. That is more likely to drive good kids away from scouting. Again: we need not tolerate rude and inconsiderate behavior like frequent last minute cancellations, and we should certainly counsel boys not to put themselves in PORs where they can't fulfill their obligations. Maybe some boys do see scouting as a secondary activity in their lives. Maybe some of them will never make Eagle as a result. But so what! I fear many are losing sight of the purpose of the program here, which is not about rank advancement and being SPL, etc., but about helping each boy develop in his own unique way. For some boys scouting will be a bigger part of that development than others. Sorry this is so long - you guys touched a nerve I guess.

One year our pack lost an entire den of 10 or 12 Tigers because the DL had scheduling issues similar to what you describe, CNY. The following year, guess what, she wasn't the DL any more. But the damage had been done and none of those boys came back to scouting. Such a shame. When my husband and I were DLs we tried to set the schedule at least 4 months out. In fact most of the time den meetings were a set night of the week, every week (except weeks with pack meetings). Some dens had a more flexible schedule, but the only ones that I saw work were those who scheduled far in advance so that busy parents with more than one kid to ferry around could arrange their lives accordingly. Talk your wife back from the edge, if you can. There are plenty of other packs around - you know that every unit is different - go find a more organized one. Or better yet, you and your wife might want to step up and become the new DLs for your son. Keep in mind that you'll get very limited traction for your complaints if you aren't willing to step up and do something to make things better, too.

Sorry to post twice but I want to add this. When else in a person's life is there so much relative freedom to explore and develop talents, hobbies, and interests, than in middle and high school? For all that there is a good deal of pressure from homework and maybe having a part time job, teens still have a remarkable freedom to try new things. As adults, we all know it is more difficult to do that, as we often get kind of "locked in" by the daily responsibilities and pressures of adult life. Maybe when we retire we'll have that time and freedom again...if we get to that point in good health. How many of us still have a hobby, or passion for, or at least fond memories of something today, as a result of something we first became acquainted with as teens, whether it be scouting or sports or music, or some other activity? So - why would we want to force boys into an either/or choice at a young age, when they rightly should be trying out different activities?

I think a lot of this is griping and perhaps insecurity about "our" program. Yes, there are kids out there who are over-committed and who don't ever learn to make choices. What I see is that these guys are typically a small minority. And many of them don't truly commit to much at all - they drift from one focus to another, never really rooting themselves anywhere. So it isn't just scouting that "suffers" in their lives. Then there are the kids who spend all their spare time either hooked to a gaming system or in their rooms staring at the ceiling or something, and can't be bothered to participate in scouting. Those kids, who seem to have little connection with anything or anyone, I worry about. But again, it isn't just scouting that "suffers" in their lives. As for those who are serious musicians or athletes or what have you, I think it is short-sighted of us to expect them to sacrifice their love of something else to put scouting "first" all the time. Yes I agree that scouting is a wonderful program (particularly when it is well-run). But you can't expect it to be the be-all, end-all for every kid. For the kid who loses (or finds) himself in music and gladly plays his horn 5+ hours a day, nothing else is going to match that. Demanding that he sacrifice his passion for music so that he can meet someone else's standard of "acceptable" involvement in scouting is silly and fails to serve that boy well in his development. Now maybe that kid shouldn't be SPL if he knows he can't be at half the meetings or outings, due to his other involvements. But my goodness, what I'm hearing in some people's comments is a suggestion that he shouldn't even be a boy scout! C'mon people, boy scouting, for all the wonderful things it does, is not the only way to reach kids, to teach kids, or to help them develop and grow. We need to be attuned to the needs of each individual boy, and scouting is not going to play the same role in all of those kids' lives. Rather than be angry and seeming to chastise kids for this, I think it would be better to recognize it. That doesn't mean you should countenance irresponsible or rude behavior like boys frequently canceling on you at the last minute, or boys choosing to take PORs that the can't realistically fulfill, but it does mean you should understand that some boys will want to explore other venues in addition to scouting, to develop their many talents. Run a good program and those boys will stick with scouting too, more often than not.

Nope - the Constitution stipulates that the pres-elect becomes president at noon, with or without oath.

THank you Beavah, for explaining what I meant in clearer terms than I did.

Yes OGE, you're right, GHW Bush did call for a thousand points of light. Although I have no recollection of him actually doing any service, but maybe he did and I just don't remember. Point is though, that was, what, 20 years ago? And yes, Clinton got Americorp started, but that's not something a lot of ordinary people can just go out and do for a few hours out of their daily lives. In the meantime, one notable thing about our (soon to be) former president's responses to hard times has been the absence of any serious national call for service from ordinary folks. Do you remember GW Bush's exhortation that we should all go SHOPPING? Yeah Yeah, he might actually have had a point, but that was rather disappointing, none the less. Given the emphasis we in scouting place on service to community, I'd think there might be a whole bunch of excited scouters out there, of all political stripes, using Obama's message and example to stir their own scouts into action.

In my estimation today is a great day for America, another new beginning. And if a person can't abide by any of the policies that Obama supports, I would have thought that even the most ardent Republicans would appreciate Obama's call for a national day of service to mark Martin Luther King day yesterday. I wish that had gotten a bit more play in scouting circles around here.

Thinking about that cold weather camping thread brought this to mind. What modifications do you make to your menus when camping in really cold weather? Maybe some of it is that you need more high-energy foods to keep warm through the day/night. Maybe some is ingredients or cooking styles that need to vary. For example, I remember my son's patrol coming home from a winter camp out at one point early on, and him telling me that the french toast didn't work out so well because all the eggs had frozen solid. What little cooking tips and tricks have you picked up to deal with the cold?

It all depends on what you're used to, and whether you have the gear. This weekend has been in the negatives up here in MI and I probably wouldn't take a typical brand new scout on his first-ever campout this weekend. More experienced scouts with proper gear might be fine. You have to know your individual scouts though, and to some extent, trust their parents to know them better than you do. One former SM I know used to talk new cross-overs into going on their first camp out in early March regardless of weather conditions. Around here early March is still the middle of winter and it can be single digits or worse, 33 and freezing rain. He'd convince the parents he knew what he was talking about and the kids would be just fine. Yeah, all of them came back with their fingers and toes in tact, but a lot of them were so miserable (and ill-prepared) that they never wanted to camp again. Our troop has a camp out planned for next weekend, by the way, tents (or quinzees) and all. It isn't my cup of tea but the boys are looking forward to it.

I don't think the idea of the cake bake is necessarily to be sexist. In the number of years that I was involved with the "macho man" cake bake as I described above, I was always interested to see that a great many men enjoy, and are rather good and creative with, cooking. In our house, my husband used to be a professional chef and has passed his love of cooking on to our son (and to me). In fact I would say that making this a "male" event rather than a "fumbling idiots in the kitchen" event actually helped to dispel some gender role myths, as boys learned that "real men" cook and bake too. By the way, when you get to boy scouts probably most, though by no means all, adult leaders will be men. And the majority of the men in boy scouts who I have met are pretty decent cooks with a particular affinity for dutch oven cooking. Cooking contests are a regular part of many boy scout activities, both for the boys and the adults, and a boy who knows how to cook well will quickly become a highly valued member of his patrol. While few boys would be excited about earning a sewing merit badge (! If there were such a thing!), many voluntarily earn the cooking merit badge, and they like it! So I guess I'm saying...this cake bake need not reinforce gender stereotypes at all, unless you frame it that way of course.