Lisabob

KnoxDad, I guess I have to ask this question. You've mentioned that you have not taken your son to church since he began school. Is that the basis for your statement that you (or he) are an atheist? If so, I would ask you to keep in mind that not attending an organized religious establishment is not necessarily the same thing as being an atheist. This is not a matter of reading between lines or splitting hairs, but a real and important difference. There are a lot of "unchurched" people who none the less would not consider themselves atheists. Some of those grew up in a religious tradition and made an active choice to leave that tradition but never found another organized version of religion that they felt comfortable with. Some others were not raised in any particular religious tradition. People who are unaffiliated with organized religion can still be BSA members. THe BSA does expect that people have some faith in something, however vague and unformed that may be. But it isn't required that this be formalized by being a member of a specific religious group of any sort. About your son - I think, as a parent, you have some challenging decisions to make. If you are certain that you are atheists and you are certain that you want your son to follow in your beliefs about religion, then I would say that on an official level, scouting is probably not the right program for you because scouting does include at least this minimal acceptance of the notion of religion. On the other hand, as has been noted, many units (especially cub packs) stay far away from religious issues and are happy to live and let live. And on still another hand (that's at least the third, I know!), scouting can offer wonderful opportunities for you to have real conversations about religion and belief systems, and for your son to grapple with what he will believe. I know that some of the more profound conversations I personally have had with my son about religion have come about because of his exposure to different ideas of religion through scouting. And while we don't subscribe to the beliefs that a lot of his scouting peers hold, it has never hurt him and, I think, has actually helped him develop a better understanding of his own and others' world views, to have that exposure. I think that if someone asked him point blank he would find it difficult to articulate what he perceives as his "duty" to a higher power (or whether he thinks he has such a duty at all), but at least he has thought about it because of his involvement in scouting - and I don't find that bad, whatever someone's beliefs might be. This thread is evidence enough for me that a de facto "local option" already exists in scouting, and that this is a good thing for everyone. (ie, many scouting units choose not to emphasize religion in the daily affairs of their unit, while many other units see public acknowledgment of religion as being a key element of their unit's program).

You have to have the basic training _for your position_ completed. For people who are not boy scout leaders, that is different from needing to have the basics for boy scout leaders completed. Sounds to me like getting his cub leader training completed would not be a barrier for ScoutFish. He would need New Leader Essentials (now called This is Scouting), the appropriate Den Leader Specific training (which he is already planning to do), and Youth Protection training. The course is in November. He has a lot of time to do any of these that he hasn't already completed. This is not to say that it either is, or is not, the right time for him to do WB, just that it doesn't sound like pre requisite training would be an issue.

Welcome! I would recommend that you have your boy ask his troop leaders (have him begin with his patrol leader) this question. If the patrol leader does not know, then the patrol leader could find out from his Senior Patrol Leader. Part of the point here is to get the boys to learn to find things out independently (as opposed to relying on adults all the time), which is why they are often encouraged to go through the youth leadership hierarchy. That said...The card signifies that a boy has been trained in the proper, safe, use of a knife. If he is brand new to scouting, then it is unlikely that the troop expects him to have the card already. They will likely offer him some opportunities to do this training and earn the card. This is often something that takes place on camping weekends. He might also want to ask his troop leaders whether he should leave his pocket knife at home, since he doesn't have his card yet. I hope this helps.

Welcome back to scouting. About behavior, I do think it helps if all the adults have a common understanding of what is acceptable and what isn't, first. If you lack that, the boys will pick up mixed signals and it becomes very hard to enforce any sort of standard at that point. So I would encourage you to see what other adult leaders in the group think and work to build a consensus there. Then the SM could work through the SPL and the SPL could work through the PLC to ensure that everybody knows what the expectations are. The SPL can be coached (by the SM) in how to lead that discussion with his PLC. Ideally, the PLC members are going to be the SPL's best allies in changing troop behavior. Now from a different angle... One thing that I think is really tough for a lot of people is to transition from seeing things through the eyes of their own experience as a scout, to seeing things through the eyes of their new roles as adult leaders. That must be especially challenging when a person returns to his old troop, rather than returning to scouting as an adult with a different troop. The fact is, things do change. And because the people are different from those who were there when you were a scout, the program will reflect the different interests, strengths, and weaknesses of the current participants. Sometimes this may mean that things you remember no longer apply (even if you remember them fondly). You have to be willing to accept that this is no longer YOUR troop or YOUR experience, but rather, the experience of the current youth members. Don't try to make it the same as yours because it just won't be. It can also be tempting to measure the current scouts by your memory of what your group was like when you were youths. But keep in mind, there were probably some adults back then who doubted YOUR ability to lead also (and yet, you probably did a great job). Many youth will grow into the job if they have the tools and role modeling and encouragement of a few key adults to help them do it. They don't have to START as the world's best SPL. Give them that chance to grow. Some other differences to keep in mind: As an adult leader, your job is really very different than as a youth leader. You can offer a lot of encouragement and motivation, but many decisions are ultimately not going to be made, or implemented, by you. Sometimes the decisions that are made by youth leaders will be ones you don't like or agree with. Sometimes, you have to allow that to happen anyway, or else you risk turning the troop into a totally adult run affair. Also, since you are not hte SM, despite the fact that you may view the current SM as soft (and maybe he is, I am not doubting you), you will need to figure out how to walk softly here. It just plain is not your job as a newly returned adult ASM to be telling the SPL how to do things. So I would suggest that you provide your insights to the SM directly. Then let the SM counsel and mentor the SPL. That is really how things are supposed to work, right? But be aware that the SM isn't always going to do things the way you would, and this can be immensely frustrating sometimes if you have a strong vision of how you think things should be, but the SM does not have such a strong vision, or the SM has a different vision. That is part of the role you now inhabit though, since you are an assistant to the SM. Again, tread lightly for a bit since you are newly returned, and a lot of things have probably changed in the intervening 5 years.

Oak has a good point, and the patrol emphasis was something that I think works better for people who have some boy scouting experience (as adults or as youth). I know this was my experience, as someone who had not been involved in boy scouting before I did Wood Badge. On the other hand, there is a great deal that WB has to offer to improving cub pack programs, and if everyone waits until they are no longer cub leaders to do it, then the cub program reaps none of those benefits. I don't have handy access to the #s but my recollection is that, of all parts of the BSA, the largest membership area is Cub Scouts. So it would be a shame to set things up in such a way that the leaders of the largest program segment are not involved in one of the best training programs BSA offers. (As a tangent, one other value of Wood Badge, IMO, is that it cements people's commitment to the BSA movement, beyond their personal involvement in a particular unit. I do not think I would still be involved in, or interested in, scouting after my son finished with Cubs, had it not been for my participation in WB.)

I'm kind of curious about this. I have heard that the cub program is changing some in the upcoming year in order to do more advancement in the dens. What does that mean for the Tiger program? No more FAMILY achievements? My son started as a Wolf (and that was some time ago, now) and it has been a while since I've been active with a pack so I'm not totally current. But I would like to hear about it, if you have info to share on how the upcoming changes will impact the Tiger program. Thanks!

Whoa. Even supposing that one buys into the notion of PC in the sense you appear to mean it, I do not see how anybody could attribute murder to PC.

That's kind of a tough call. I did WB the summer after my son's bear year. I had been a registered leader for about a year at that point, but mostly on the committee. I stepped up after our pack had a leadership melt down. There were only a couple of adults left to pick up the pieces, and the new Cub master and I agreed to do WB together in an attempt to get the pack onto a better footing. In many regards, I do not regret that I did WB as early as I did. Had I waited, the pack would not have received any benefit from the training that I received. And the pack did, indeed, need it! Not wanting to boast, but I think the outlook that the CM and I brought back to the pack from our WB experience was the primary reason that pack survived, and thrived. That's the problem with telling enthusiastic cub leaders to wait until they have more seasoning. Packs would rarely benefit if everyone did that. On the other hand, (like you, Scoutfish - based on your previous posts) I had little hands-on experience with being a BSA leader other than in the cub program. My knowledge of the bigger BSA picture was limited. Some of what happens in WB was probably lost on me, or didn't have as big an impact for me, as a result. So a balance must be struck, and ultimately it is hard for those of us on this board to know what that balance should be for you. Do you have a good scouting mentor, someone whose opinion (based on knowing you, your pack, and your council's WB staff) you trust? If so, I'd encourage you to ask that person. Another thing to ask is: What do you want from WB? If you are looking for specific skills, WB might not be the right program for you at this moment. For me, the most valuable parts of WB were the connections I made with other scouters, and some perspective on how things *can* work. But I know some folks were looking for something tangible and by and large, they were disappointed. Also be sure you talk with your significant other. WB is a lot of fun, and for some people maybe it is even life-changing, but it is also very time consuming and I know you've mentioned having small children around the house. One thing I noticed is that WB'ers also tend to get tapped for all sorts of other unit, district, and council assignments, which can take over your life if you are not careful. Keep the peace at home, too.

We had very limited success with this. It was a combination of past practice/habits, burnout (for parents - leaders and non-leaders alike), and people's vacation schedules. What we ended up with was making it "just fun" stuff, almost entirely outdoors. Getting together for a bonfire, going fishing, cub day camp, etc. These weren't weekly, and they were minimally planned. You know, when I think back on it, if the regular school-year meetings had been as much fun (and as laid back) as the few summer things we did, we'd probably have kept more boys and their parents involved.

Regardless of this boy's medical condition, if you do not respond firmly, you will quickly become known as a troop that coddles bullies and your younger scouts will leave. Webelos will opt to join other troops instead. I say this because I have seen it happen, including with special needs scouts who have emotional disorders. At a minimum, the scout needs to have his parent attend events. And you should not hesitate to send him home, if he behaves like that again. I bet his dad would understand this and accept it, even if he is disappointed. Again, medical issues are no excuse for physically attacking others. The boy needs to be held to certain basic standards of behavior, and the other boys need to know that he will be held to those standards, if they are going to be able to work with him, too.

What causes the image problem? Yes, the uniform (shirts in particular though neckers don't appear to be wildly popular among the guys I know). Also, the fakery. It is one thing to *say* you are going to have an adventurous program where boys learn real skills and get to do cool stuff with more respect from adults and less overwhelming adult presence/control. It is another to watch what really happens. If what really happens is that adults run everything and (to borrow from something Nike wrote elsewhere) "tell the youth what the adults decided the youth want to do" then it won't work. Teens are amazingly good at picking up on hypocrisy, shallowness, and lack of genuine respect, and they respond accordingly.

It is funny that this thread came up again this weekend because I really am at a point where I want very little to do with scouting right now, I'm so fed up. The thread may be a year old but things have not changed and the same issues continually manifest themselves. Few people are willing to address the issues, and I have gotten absolutely nowhere. It is a weird combination of: 1) adults doing the boys' jobs (happened yet again at this last campout, where the former SM evidently informed my SPL son that the boys who my son had authorized to build quinzees a little ways away could either tent with the troop or rip their unit #s off their sleeves and leave - these boys were trying to earn their wilderness survival MB, are among the oldest, most skilled, and most responsible kids you'd ever meet, and ended up leaving the camp out early instead of sticking around) 2) adults not stopping the true problems that are out of control (perennial trouble maker Life Scout ceaselessly talking about how he admires Hitler and about "white power," including insulting the one non-white kid in the troop all weekend long. The only adult who was willing to stand up to him was the parent of a first year scout who has never camped with the troop before. Former perennial trouble maker who aged out and is now a troop adult "leader" at age 18, causing trouble for the SPL all weekend instead of behaving as an adult ought to, and the former SM, who has always watched out for him, backing this "adult" instead of the SPL.) I am really ready to encourage my son to walk away, something I rarely support and don't take lightly. This isn't the environment I had in mind for my kid when he joined boy scouting though, and I'm tired of watching it. We've tried working within the system. We've tried allowing that no troop is perfect and that any group of boys will have their moments. I certainly know that my own kid has his moments. Personally, I like a lot of these adults and appreciate their time and skills. But I'm done sitting back and making excuses for this baloney.

Eamonn, I just wanted to say thanks. Especially on these difficult topics, I often find myself nodding in agreement, or at least appreciation, as I read what you have written. It is a refreshing take on the way a lot of people express their religiously based beliefs, to hear that many people of faith still struggle with these kinds of issues. I think that if more people were totally honest about the ambiguities, doubts, and difficulties we face when trying to live our faith(s) in our daily lives, we would probably see more brotherhood and peace in the world, as a result. And maybe fewer kids would be turned off to organized religion by absolutist adults who aren't willing to acknowledge those struggles and ambiguities.

Snow White, that is kind of scary that there are packs whose programs basically end after the blue and gold. Around here, most packs don't really get off the ground until October (school starts after labor day, round ups are held in early October, first pack meeting might be mid October). If they closed up shop in February, the kids would get a whole 4 or 5 months' worth of program. (OK, sorry about the hijack, but I just thought WOW when I saw your comment.)

I don't know for sure, but I am willing to bet that part of the issue here is that we are in blue & gold season. For reasons I don't understand, many (most?) pack leaders are under the impression that rank awards should be presented at blue and gold, come hell or high water. This means that the boy who finished his rank in November has to wait 3 months to get it, the boy who is struggling to finish by February is under tremendous pressure, den leaders and pack leaders feel a need to "fudge" it, and oh by the way, boys who earn arrow of light get to wear it for about 15 minutes as cub scouts, because many packs do cross-over to boy scouts at the blue & gold, too! Phew! Now if that describes your situation, OSS, then you may want to bear in mind that you do not HAVE to do things this way. Ranks can be awarded WHEN THEY ARE EARNED, any time through the year. A boy who isn't quite done in time for blue and gold can (should) be recognized, praised, and generally made much of at the very next pack meeting after he actually has earned the rank, whether that's March or June, or whenever. Having said that, if this is the situation you have found yourself facing, you may want to look at how you can manage expectations in the short run, vs. in the longer run, and also at what your priorities are. If your pack is otherwise pretty functional, maybe this is a good issue to take up right now. If your pack is barely holding together and hardly has a program to speak of, you might have bigger fish to fry. Good luck to you, and don't forget the (unofficial) cub leader motto: KISMIF (Keep it Simple, Make it Fun)

Yes of course the question is odd. The point I was trying to make is that I read (and see, and hear) a LOT about all the restrictions people place on the boys. The thread from which this was spun, someone commented that the adults had decided something and weren't about to let the PLC intervene. To me, part of the gap between what scouting promises and what it delivers can be accounted for by the fact that many adults are uncomfortable letting the boys decide much of anything. It can be disappointing.

Thanks for the input. You all confirmed my initial hunch on this!

I think I would call this a fundraising event, not a good deed. Lots of troops help out with various civic events in exchange for (usually smaller) donations. I don't see this as being much different than that. I am supposing that this was planned, and not last minute? I might feel differently, if the police, upon arriving, unexpectedly discovered that their housing plans had fallen through, they had no place to stay, and were suddenly dependent on the mercy of strangers to take them in.

If a boy earned the recruiter patch as a cub scout, can he carry that patch over to his boy scout uniform, or not? I don't have the insignia guide, but was asked that question by parents of a boy who will join our troop next week. You guys are such good resources, I thought someone here might know. THanks

emb, the thing is that as a "consumer" of their "product," I really do not care all that much WHY the BSA national office hasn't got their stuff together. OGE, I am not assuming that volunteers are incompetent, just that they are both busy with the rest of their lives, and may lack the resources and communication capacities to roll out national-level programs with ease. Professional, paid, staff that works full time for the BSA should not lack the time, knowledge, resources, OR commitment to doing their jobs well. Hey! I got it! Note to National - HIRE YOUR VOLUNTEERS!

Fair enough, I am sure there are some in every bunch. Still, I would hate for the few pains in the rear to dictate policy for everyone. If we did that on a regular basis then no troop would ever allow the boys to decide - or do - much of anything. Honestly, I really think that if you have some thoughtful, solid fellows in the group, you could engage in a serious conversation about personal electronics and come to a decision that would include the primary participants (the boys) in the process, while still addressing the reasonable concerns that adult leaders have.

Glad to hear it isn't canceled outright. Still. We are 41 days into 2010 and they are giving us "any day now" for a program that is only good this calendar year? What, did they not know when the year was going to start or something? This is something that could easily have been put together months ago and put on the shelf, waiting for roll out on January 1. Poor planning. If it were entirely volunteers doing all this stuff, that would be one thing. But I was under the impression that "National" has a fairly sizable paid, professional staff running the show. Maybe I am mistaken?

I hear you BDT, and I can't deny that the nature of Jambo is very different from daily life in a typical troop. On the other hand, all of the boys, by definition, are at least 1st class scouts. From what little I've seen thus far, they also appear to be the ones who are most involved with scouting - cream of the crop. They know something about leadership and decision making at this point (one hopes). At least, that appears to be the case for the guys in my son's jambo troop. So far I'm fairly impressed with them. So one might also think that these guys could, if asked, really step up. Of course, if not asked, most of them would probably be happy to sit back and just go for the ride, I guess. Yet we are straying from the actual question at hand - cell phones, or not? So let me try to bring it back. First, I am not a big fan of cell phones, other electronic distractions, or being constantly, instantly, connected to everything. I actively discourage my own child from behaving that way and missing out on real life as a result. He has a cell phone, but seldom carries it. In fact, the bigger problem is on the rare occasion when I *want* him to have the phone and he forgets, or doesn't turn it on. But most of the guys his age probably have them. As a group they are adept at using them even when they're not supposed to. So much so, that many school districts in my neck of the woods have given up blanket confiscation and instead moved toward a "responsible use" policy - at least for the upper grades. Not to mention that I hear from teachers about how upset parents become when their little darling's cell phone gets taken away by a teacher, and how much grief teachers get for doing this. (To which my response was, "if my kid is using his cell during class, feel free to take it, certainly let me know, and believe me, it won't happen twice." evidently that's unusual.) Etiquette and manners are never out of vogue, and that applies to youth with cell phones, too. Maybe that's where our focus ought to be. And, in fact, I've noticed that a lot of kids do learn to use these things in moderation and sometimes will even police each other. Not too long ago I witnessed one 15 year old tell a 13 year old (in a tone of disgust and disbelief) that if he couldn't turn off the darn phone while they ate dinner together, there was something seriously wrong with him. The 13 year old turned it off. That wasn't a scouting event, but the dynamic was pretty similar. I guess, even with the unusual nature of a jambo contingent, I'd want to at least have this two way, honest and open, conversation with the boys, rather than imposing it upon them. You might end up with the same, or a very similar, policy, but it will have more legitimacy if they have an honest voice in making it. Then it will be easier to abide by.

"we don't see any reason to let the PLC decide on something we've already come to a consensus on." (paraphrasing here because I can't seem to reopen the original thread) "this is not a white/wheat or jam/jelly type of decision." You know I hear this, or variations of this, a lot. Not to pick on the original posters, who were writing about something OTHER THAN youth leadership (about whether to allow cell phones at jambo). But sometimes I think that the major reason why the boys don't take youth leadership seriously, is because we adults often don't take it seriously, either. Just saying.

OK I am getting mighty sick of National rolling stuff out and then not supporting it or having it halfway ready. Geez! You would think they would have a professional program and IT staff.