Lisabob

This is something I had often wondered about. How do OA dance teams know whether what they are doing is authentic? Glad to hear that at least in some places, there are relationships with the local folks who know. Might I also suggest, for any interested OA boy scouts, that this would pair up well with the American Cultures merit badge? I'm a counselor for that - but in the 6 years I've done it, not one boy in my council has asked to work with me, and I think I'm the only counselor in the council. Seems like a natural for OA dance team guys.

A few I've heard lately, about tents: Troops all have to have the same tents, as part of the uniform method Alternately - troops all have to have the same tents, and the tents must be small and a neutral color like green/grey/brown, so as to conform with LNT principles of blending in to the natural environment Boys cannot ever sleep in a tent by themselves for any reason. Buddy system. And one about the E-Prep merit badge: The emergency service project requirement (#7) must be a disaster drill, it must be in your own community, and it must be done with your own troop.

Sctdad, a few scattered thoughts. I would not be surprised if the last sentence you wrote came true, down the road. Not that I necessarily think it would be smart. Domestic violence is "abuse in the home." He probably wouldn't win a defamation suit, based on what has been written so far, even if the person he told this went out and shouted it from the rooftops. Among other things, one normally needs to show that the false statement was known to be false, and that it was said maliciously with an intent to cause harm. Strangely enough, this fellow may have "defamed" himself, but that would be about it. But this is all beside the point. The guy does not want to put himself or his family through the background check. I don't know if his intentions are noble (he had one bad moment with his ex-wife that he will now regret forever, and doesn't want to relive that) or not (he is a violent man who has you all fooled - it happens!). If I were the pack leadership, I would not spread this information far and wide. Instead, I would remind everybody about youth protection, 2 deep leadership, no 1 on 1 contact. I'd be vigilant about ensuring every leader has current YPT and that parents know about YPT so they can do it too, if they want to. And then I'd leave it be, and trust my other (registered and trained) leaders to pay attention. End of story.

Looking at the website, (thanks, Ed!) I see it is kind of expensive, especially if you add in the cost of travel for people who don't live in that region. It would probably be close to $700 for a kid from my section of the Midwest to attend (travel and cost of the course). Yeah I see that there are a limited number of $200 scholarships. But I tend to think of those as being for people who are really hard up. Still, ~$700 for a week of anything would hit even most middle class families as being a lot of money. So - is it worth this kind of cost? Another take - is it worth it for a kid who is unlikely to be able to apply a lot of what he learns directly to his troop? (Maybe he is less active in the troop leadership than he once was, maybe the troop is so adult-led that he wouldn't have a chance, maybe he'll be aging out in the next year). I see it is supposed to be applicable to troop leadership, and no doubt it would be fun, but it isn't clear to me whether this is a prudent use of resources for a lot of fellows. I'd really like to hear more about why it is worth it, from those who have some direct experience. jet - what did your son enjoy about it? John and Eagle92, what impressed you so much about the predecessor course? (This message has been edited by lisabob)

sailing, Yup, that's what I do. Most days, I can honestly say I really enjoy my job too! As for RMP ratings, well sometimes yes and sometimes no. I find it varies, often based on a lot of factors that are entirely outside my control. One thing I have noticed - the fellows who identify themselves as Eagle Scouts are a lot less likely to show up late to class! Something in their scouting careers must have sunk in.

Seems clear to me that this is why somebody might decline to submit an app, to begin with. He is clearly uncomfortable with everybody knowing his past situation. Would he be a good leader? Maybe. Can I imagine scenarios going in either direction? Yes. Do I understand why he would not want to place his family in the center of this public debate? Absolutely.

I teach a lot of college freshmen, and often at obscenely early hours of the morning (to a college freshman, this evidently means "before noon"). Over the years I have come to enjoy teaching 8am classes, although I am also "not a morning person," I live a good hour's drive from campus, and unlike my students, I can't go to class in my PJs or arrive 12 seconds before class starts. Somehow, the darlings all get to class on time. Or, they don't. In the latter case, if it happens often, inevitably they do not do well. Sometimes I hear about how their alarms didn't go off, mom did not call them early enough, the power went out, whatever. My response - get a second alarm clock, battery powered, put it by the door so you have to get out of bed to turn it off, and give your mom a break. Only one time has a student asked (seriously!) if ***I*** would call them in the morning. You can imagine the look on that kid's face, when the rest of the class broke out into hysterics. I almost felt bad for him. Engineer - real life is like that. You know this and I'm sure your wife does, too. I guess your son is finding that out right now.

Well the title says it all. What makes it worth while, or not, in your view? Who should go? Why? What should participants expect out of it? How does it compare to, say, NYLT? For participants or leaders/parents of participants: thumbs up, sideways, or down?

I think it is a little bit lame, just as I think the "good manners" belt loop is lame. Not that I am opposed to good manners, but that I am sad to see we apparently need a belt loop in order to promote manners. To me, the video game culture is sort of the same - we need a beltloop? for this? I don't have a problem with the requirements, for the most part - but I wonder why parents wouldn't just do these things with their small children already. Seriously, is the belt loop really aimed at that Wolf Cub with his PSP in hand, or is it aimed at his parents, who are (evidently) so clueless that the BSA now needs to provide *them* with incentives to understand the video game rating system and teach their kids to do the same? Sherminator - at least it isn't a merit badge! (yet) (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Engineer - I don't disagree with you about the balance of priorities. However, the bigger issue for me would be that the boy was not up-front (some might even say he was not truthful, depending on the details) about his homework situation. As a parent, I can deal with occasional judgment lapses or time management issues. I find I have far less tolerance for dishonesty. So I'm with you on the venting!

Honor his wishes and find other ways for him to lend a hand. Den leaders are important, of course, but there are lots of unsung heroes out there who never take on the title, but do plenty of the leg work. Maybe he will be one of them.

Thanks for the MB name update. I missed that one. Somehow, maintenance sounds a little less scary, and more everyday-applicable than mechanics (I could do maintenance, I would hire a mechanic!) I am not saying that I personally would do, or am doing, this. This is someone else's idea that we have been kicking around, and so I posted here in order to get a wider sampling of opinions. But I am curious about why some of you think this shows lack of character. It is, after all, directly related to the topic at hand. Prior to engaging in what I think all of us might agree is a major, life-changing milestone (driving), why should a parent not expect a child to show that he is capable of taking care of the responsibilities that go with that decision? Is this really any different than requiring a child to take driver's ed? Now, granted, driver's ed is mandatory in the state where I live right now (if you want a license before you turn 18). But if it were voluntary, I doubt many kids would take it unless forced to by their parents. So for teens who are boy scouts, why is a merit badge, one that is directly related to the situation, different?

We've all heard about parents who tell their boys "You can't have a car (or license) until you earn Eagle!" And I think many of us agree that this is often not such a good thing. What about this one: "You can't have a car (or license) until you earn the Auto Mechanics Merit Badge!" ??

I'm sorry, but if you've volunteered to be the Unit Leader, you've volunteered to attend ALL activities of your unit, that fit into your schedule. If you have another conflict (coaching, job, etc.) that's fine. If it's simply not something you're willing do, that is an issue. Maybe this is why we have such difficulty finding people to take on the #1 leadership spot. I certainly think that the unit leader ought to be at most things! I'm not sure I'd say ALL things. I do think that a unit leader should assist the youth in planning events as needed, and in locating other adults who can fill in, when the SM/Crew Adviser/CM/Whoever cannot (or will not) attend. And I hear Eamonn saying he does those things.

Eagle, they could still do that and just get them custom made, couldn't they? That is what my son's troop had done.

No, BadenP, you are mistaken. I see every one of us as "guardians" of this site. That is how societies function and develop societal norms of behavior. But, I won't continue this conversation with you any further since it has moved away from the topic of the thread.

As far as I'm aware, people need to be BSA lifeguards to certify the swim test. I could be wrong (and goodness knows, someone here will correct me if I am - which is a good thing!), but I don't think being Red Cross certified is counted as being BSA certified. But it has been a couple of years since I've looked at this, and the best bet would be to contact the summer camp you are going to and clarify things with them.

Interesting article in today's NY Times about the expansion of scouting in elite private schools in NYC. Though most of the article is about girl scouts, they talk a little bit about boy scouts (cubs, particularly) about 2/3 of the way through the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/nyregion/17scouts.html?hp

We never intended to live on the moon, either. Yet, going to the moon was not only an inspirational venture; it also netted us incredible advances in all kinds of sci/tech fields. It spurred a generation of scientific research and allowed us to regain our global leadership in both military and civilian applications of that research. What makes you think that Mars would not pay off in similar ways. The other thing about these sorts of programs is that they don't start and stop on a dime. Yes the economy has challenges now, but it is to be hoped that 5 years from now, things are going to be considerably different. But we can't turn off funding this year, turn it on next year, wait and see what the year after that shapes up like, etc., and expect to have a coherent scientific research agenda of any kind. Lack of stability in funding results in people not being able to commit to long term projects. That doesn't benefit anybody.

Anyway, it isn't very likely going to work. See, I believe that when somebody is trying to shove another person around (whether literally or figuratively), the folks standing nearby have an obligation to say something. Ah, spring. I think I'll go out and enjoy the sunshine for a bit.

One thing you may or may not know - district execs are evaluated in part (large part) on the basis of how many new units they start up in a given year. They are often less-evaluated on the quality of support or service given to existing units. (which, to be fair, is partly a volunteer job anyway - unit commissioners, district committees, etc) So if your DE is suddenly breathing down your neck about starting a brand new unit, be sure he or she has the best interests of the boys in mind, and not just his or her unit tally. Other than signing the paperwork, what firm commitments will the district be making to support this potential new unit? Think specifics because breezy generalities are easy to forget about. Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would be looking for a new troop for the older boy(s) to join. Starting a cub pack is a challenge, but starting a boy scout troop is (in my view) a much greater challenge. So find a new troop - one that works like a real troop should - and get your older boys settled there, first. Then you can think better about cub scouts. My inclination would still be to find an existing pack that functions correctly, rather than start up another one. But that depends a little bit on your area, in terms of your options. It also depends a LOT on how up-to-the-eyeballs you truly want to be in all of this. Starting a new unit can be rewarding, but it isn't easy, and you should be thinking long-term (not just while your boys will be there, but how will this pack survive once its founding members have moved on). Is this something you want to commit a lot of your time to? Or would you be better off joining a good pack that already exists in your area, and maybe giving your volunteer time and talents to that existing group, instead?

BadenP, There's no call for attacking other posters like that. Moosetrack was reporting their experience from their viewpoint. Unless you live in the same town and know the situation personally, you have absolutely no basis for your assertion, and telling a volunteer whom you've presumably never met that they are a liability to their unit and district is unacceptable as well as un-scoutlike. Lay off.

"In the 5+ decades I have been on this earth, I have never seen anyone wash their feet in the sink of any restroom. And I'll bet you could say the same thing Merlyn" I have seen people do this. In light of the current flip-flops-are-fashionable fad on college campuses, I've seen more than a few students use sinks to rinse off their dirty feet after trudging through mud to get to classes. Are they all Muslims? No idea, I generally don't ask for the religious affiliation of strangers in public bathrooms.

At the end of the wolf year, my son's den (about 1/3 of the pack) switched to another pack. Reasons: adults sniping about each other in nasty ways, and really borrrriiiiinnnngggg pack meetings that were nothing more than hour-long adult announcements. Since the den leader, who did a good job, was the one being sniped about, when she joined another pack the whole den went with her. At the end of the bear year, the new pack we had joined had a leadership meltdown that included adult fisticuffs at the pinewood derby. Mass exodus that time was because of terrible adult role modeling and leadership. Some adults were asked to leave; others who were part of the fighting left of their own accord; others didn't want to put up with the drama in what (they thought) was supposed to be a fun children's program, so they left too. None of this is ever fun.

I would move to a different unit, too. This is nothing but trouble. However, before I moved, I would write a detailed letter to the CO, explaining what has occurred. I would also openly send that letter to every parent in the pack and troop. And I would cc the district executive and council executive. And I would request that the CO consider whether or not there are legal issues involved, after carefully explaining (in writing, to the CO) that THEY actually own the funds in question. Then, I would dump the issue and move on - the legal matters, if any, are the CO's responsibility, not yours. If the CO is fine with potential fraud and embezzlement, the only practical recourse available to you, personally, is really to get the heck out.