Lisabob

Michelle, Nope, our council does not allow siblings who are not cubs to attend camp, regardless of parent status as leaders. There is actually one exception: if the sibling in question is 16 or older, they may register as a junior assistant on the staff for day camp, but that's it. I've been told this exclusion is for insurance purposes and I can imagine that without such a policy some people would bring their infants or toddlers and then be upset that the program didn't accomodate them, or something equally dumb. Both our day camp and resident camp programs always have very high attendance rates so I also suspect this is a space issue. Lisa'bob

Funscout - my sister's family does not have cable/satellite. They live in the middle of nowhere so cable isn't an option anyway. If it weren't for my cartoon-movies-and-sports crazed other half, I wouldn't have it either. (he thinks I'm nuts but at least he consented when I decreed that there would never, ever be a tv in the bedroom, so I guess I can live with things as they are) It isn't that I hate TV or anything - though my son is not sure about that - but I grew up spending 10-14 weeks every summer and most weekends the rest of the year at camp without any TV at all (exceptions made for occasional olympics events) and I hardly ever missed it. Amazing what we can do with all that extra time. Now when I suggest we turn it off for even a few days, let alone a week, the rest of my family wants me to get my head examined! Oh well. Lisa'bob

By the way parents who bring their daughters to cub scouts along with their sons should be aware that in most cases, their daughters will NOT be able to participate at the same level once the boys cross into boy scouts. This is a real down side to getting your daughter excited and involved in cubbing. One of my son's buddies has a sister who did most everything with our pack (both parents very involved as leaders so the whole family was there 99% of the time). The mom mentioned to me not long ago that her daughter is bummed that she can't continue on with boy scouts. On the bright side, the daughter can't wait to turn 14 and join a Venture crew. To those who will say, hey, that's what GS is for: yes, I know, but around here the GS program is not well regarded. I don't have a daughter so I'm not involved with it, but from what I hear, I can't blame people for being underwhelmed by it. Lisa'bob

When I was active with our pack we had several families who regularly brought their daughters with them to nearly all events. In the vast majority of cases, we had no problem with this because after all, cubs is very family-oriented. Besides, if we had told them no they probably would've quit because it would have been difficult for them to find babysitters, etc.. There were only a few exceptions to this rule (cub day camp and resident camp - our district won't allow any non-cub children to attend; pack overnighters where space was limited; one den that had an annual dad/son night strictly limited to "the guys"; pinewood derby - any non-scouts could only race in the "open" classes) However...we never awarded the girls the cub awards even though they often did the exact same activities as the boys did. We had a couple of parents who asked about it (most of whom also said they liked the cub program better than the GS program!) but I just don't see how you could do this in keeping with the BSA rules. Lisa'bob

Backwoods, good idea. In the meantime though, there are other areas of the cub program where hiking can fit in. If you haven't already done so, check out the requirements for the Outdoor Activities Award (req. #1 is a nature hike): http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/outdoor-activity-award.html (link to the Virtual Cub Leader's Handbook) There are also BSA historic trails around the country. In NY there are 17 listed as appropriate for cub scouts. I know some are not near your part of the state (though, having done the Niagara Falls one with my son when he was 8, and being from that area of the state myself, let me recommend it to you as a nice weekend summer trip). But several seem like they're within a reasonable distance. Depending on the trail, some involve more actual hiking than others (Portage Trail is a serious hike; Niagara Falls could become a hike if you wanted to, but a lot of it is more focused on historical sites in the area) When my son completed the Niagara Frontier Trail he received a "cool" medal to wear on his red vest and he was very proud of it - way better than a beltloop as awards go. Here's a link to Scouting.org's list of NYS BSA Historic Trails appropriate for Cub-aged scouts. You can contact the councils listed for details about the trail. http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trails/trails.jsp If you end up doing any of these, would you post a commentary? My son and I are looking to do more of these over the next couple of summers, as a fun way for him to get to know NY better (we live out of state now but I still think of NY as "home") And then, many councils sponsor Cub Hikes at their council scout camps. Ours does about 3/year. No beltloop, but always a patch. Happy hiking! Lisa'bob

Venivedi, I have a question about your suggestion to firecrafter. Now in the context of the situation firecrafter describes, I can see where your suggestion makes a lot of sense. What I'm wondering is whether the SM can tell a boy he can't work on a particular mb at any given time? (and I really mean this as a question, not a criticism of your advice) For example, could the SM tell a boy that a mb is too advanced/too difficult for him and deny him access to it? What about telling a boy who is progressing very slowly through the ranks that he needs to work on rank adv. and can't do more mbs right now? How about if a boy has a bunch of partials and wants to start new mbs? The above scenarios are all occuring within our troop although the SM has not said no to anybody yet. It is something that has been discussed on occasion though and I'm curious whether he could, if he wanted to? From the sound of your post, it seems he could. Also, is it fair game for a BOR to ask a scout who is either advancing very slowly but has a bunch of mbs, or one who is advancing very quickly with no mbs (through 1st class anyway) to switch gears a little bit and focus on the other side of things? So much to learn... Lisa'bob

Egads, and here I had skipped over that thread, thinking it was bound to be a tedious legal-eeze discussion. Thanks for the clarification, funscout. Never a dull moment around here, is there. Lisa'bob

To follow up on mbscoutmom's comment about recruitment, do any troops in your area do direct recruiting, either through the schools (where allowed - I know it is a touchy issue in some places) or through other venues? Or do troops in your area rely primarily (entirely?) on cross overs from cub scouts? To me, the latter suggests a "feeder" view of packs as discussed in other recent threads. Lisa'bob

wingnut, as a former cub leader I would disagree with your statement. Some packs do have that kind of retention problem, no doubt. But my experience is that well-run packs do not. In fact, our pack has a recent history (last 3 years) of attracting more new boys in 4th and 5th grade than they lose. This year they picked up 4 brand new 5th graders in Sept. and all of them crossed over this last weekend. Around here, what I've seen is that most cub packs do focus on #s 1-9 and they do a good job of it, for the most part. As Oak Tree says, if you nail those, #10 isn't that hard. What happens after cross over, now that's really out of the hands of the pack. Lisa'bob

OK not to hijack the thread or anything but these off-hand references to "sod surfing" keep popping up...what the heck is sod surfing? Is this a prarie sport of some type?? Back to the thread: I don't have info in my profile for exactly the reasons Oak Tree mentions. I suppose that if anybody from my unit or district or council really wanted to, they could at least tentatively identify me based on things I've posted though. (And somehow I've missed the thread where people are getting criticized for not identifying themselves.) Lisa'bob

The discussion in another thread of how preparing cubs to become boy scouts fits into the scheme of things for Cub Scouts got me thinking. Mbscoutmom indicates that this is the prime focus of her district (at least, at RT), and she doesn't sound thrilled about that - not that I blame her. What's the sentiment in other places, in terms of the "purpose" of cub scouting? Around here, there are a lot of (ahem) "experienced" scouters who seem to have the view of cubs that mbscoutmom describes, but these folks are rarely seen except at RT and occasional district breakfasts, and they definitely have little influence over the way most packs actually operate. Our district does a good job of providing cub-oriented programs like day and resident camp, a winter event, district derby, etc. too. In fact I'd say that our district's webelos-scout transition plan is one of our weaker areas (a topic for another thread though). Lisa'bob

Mark, Congratulations to your son (and you!). My understanding of the appropriate use of the trained strip is the same as yours; it should only be worn if it is true for the position you now hold. However, I've had this same conversation with several former cub leaders recently. One had ironed his trained strip on back when he was a cub leader (and was fully trained). Upon crossing over he had a dilemma; try to pry it off and have that ugly-looking glue spot on his shirt where the patch had been, or leave it be. His solution: he left the "trained" patch on but did not add his ASM patch until he was actually trained for that position. Uniform police are probably going to have conniptions over this one, but I thought it was a decent, common sense compromise. Lisa'bob

What kind of activities do the boys do in the packs you are considering joining? Do they do summer camp (day or resident or both)? Do they hold den or pack meetings regularly during the summer months? All of the things you have listed so far make sense (though I'd be leery of typing any pack based on economics, but I still understand your concern). But they're also focused primarily on what the ADULTS would like. Now that's important because without adult buy-in, the boys won't be involved. But...make sure you are looking at this from the boys' perspective too. Lisa'bob

With few exceptions, our scout shop is extremely well stocked. The one time of year things are a little tight is in September, and then usually only for the very small clothing sizes. But I suspect this is a local issue because in the 5 years I've been buying unit awards and other stuff, I can count on one hand the times that they didn't have what I needed, when I needed it. Lisa'bob

Brian, my advice is to go early and often. Don't make this a one shot deal because how can you really get to know a troop in one meeting? I would encourage you to schedule any large-group (den) visits. But you could also ask the SM how s/he feels about having just a couple of boys drop in unannounced to a regular troop meeting and assuming that's ok, let the parents know that they can do so any time. You're right that they may see the troop in a different light if they do this, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In my experience most troops have a semi-open door policy. It would be difficult for them to accomodate a large group with no prior notice and there are occasional troop meetings where any visitors would be bored (like on troop election night or something). So asking in advance if there are any dates to avoid and keeping those unannounced visits small seems reasonable to me. Beyond that, any troop that won't allow drop in visits would cause me to wonder why not, and that's probably not a good thing. Lisa'bob

One thing I've noticed is that turnout varies depending on the activity in question. If that's true for your troop then it might help to compare a well-attended event with a poorly-attended one. What differences are there that might explain the divergent trend. For example: maybe the high attendance activities are new events, while the ones with low attendance are "troop tradition" (maybe "troop tradition" is really more interesting to the adults than the boys). But as several others have said, asking the boys for input is key. Don't assume. Lisa'bob

My son's troop does both types. The pack we were with previously only did unit-wide sales. A couple of observations: Unit-wide sales aren't usually problematic unless you have way too many of them, or you have a product that doesn't sell well. Unit-wide sales work better when the boys and parents know what the money is used for. At the cub level you need to target the parents. At the troop level, assuming that your PLC is choosing the activities that the troop participates in, you need to make sure the PLC also understands the costs involved. Also at the troop level, unit-wide sales often seem to be aimed at buying new gear; something that the boys will probably understand very well since they're the ones using the gear. Just make the benefits as tangible as possible. (ie, "we need new tents because you've told us that the ones we have are full of holes and leak when it rains"; not, "we need new gear") Unit-wide sales should come with an explicit expectation that most of the boys will participate most of the time. I personally don't like making them "mandatory" but many units do, or at least try to. Unit-wide sales will work better (at troop level) when the boys have input into what will be sold and how. Our troop does not give prizes to the boys (we don't sell popcorn). But there are some other benefits. Both of the major troop fundraisers are service activities (cleaning up at two community events). At one the boys get pizza and drinks, and at the other they get a free pass (and parking) to the event. All of the profit from the two fundraisers that the troop does for individual scout accounts goes directly into the scout accounts; no cut off the top for the troop. These are more traditional sales (wreaths and plants) and interestingly enough, most boys don't sell that much stuff. Lisa'bob

Brian, I did the beltloop requirement. We held a special "beltloop night" for the one I chose and close to 80% of the boys attended - well beyond what I had expected. Depending on the beltloop in quetion and your pack, you might be able to incorporate this into a regular pack meeting, or do some of it on a pack overnighter, etc. We also did this with the science beltloop at our pinewood derby; when the kids were done racing we set up stations for them to visit with their parents and try some simple experiments. Worked well for us and the kids loved the hands on stuff. We tried to pick experiments that had to do with gravity and motion, to keep with the racing theme. As to whether simply introducing the information is enough, I guess that is up to your committee but if it were me, I'd be inclined to say no. I think you should actually set it up so that the boys can earn the beltloop. Lisa'bob

Yeah Funscout, that's pretty sad. I'm glad the pack didn't get stiffed for the money though. Lisa'bob

Rooster, here's the rare political point on which we can agree. And by the way, even those of us who do go around muttering about our distaste for Bush ought to read the full story before jumping to conclusions. I don't know yet what I think about this port deal; I'm not sure if I can bring myself to trust the administration's analysis since I believe they've been so wrong in their analysis of so many other foreign policy issues. But I do know that trying to make the case against it by relying on half-stories, stereo typing and fear mongering isn't the right way to go about it, and that's what it seems a lot of folks are doing. Lisa'bob

The only thing I might find worrisome about this is if the parents bought all that popcorn just so "Junior" could make his goal. In that case I'd say this might be a misplaced sense of accomplishment. But that's ultimately the parents' issue anyway. They'd better hope Junior doesn't set a $10,000 goal next year! Lisa'bob

In another thread on hiking boots, Eagle74 writes: "Every year when the newest crossovers come into the troop we tell boys and parents to spend the money for a pair of hiking shoes; some can't seem to get the message until after one miserable experience. " -------------------------- Well we've got a bunch of young scouts who are, or will soon be, in the market for gear (new and 1st year scouts). With regard to boots in particular the choices seem a bit mind boggling to the uninitiated. Keeping in mind that these are 10-11-12 year olds who grow a shoe size practically overnight, what do you all recommend in terms of hiking footwear? The advice on the other thread seems like it might be more geared toward older scouts who are seriously committed to scouting (and will hopefully have lots of opportunities to use those new boots) and also who aren't likely to outgrow the boots that mom and dad just invested $100 + to buy, at least not in the next two or three months. Lisa'bob

Having worked at camps for years, I've reached the conclusion that there is no magic cure for this issue. Anything you can think of, short of getting in there with the kid (a big NO to that idea, of course), and a truly dedicated non-showering kid will figure out a way around it. And hey, it is only a week. If they really get ripe, they'll probably get teased enough that they'll head for the shower on their own; if not, well, they'll live. It's the kids who go to camp for 8-10 weeks and never shower that you really need to watch out for. I do like Semper's ideas, as well as just announcing that showers WILL be had by all (it may still work with some of the first year campers who don't know they can avoid it if they really try). Also I always found that kids who had shower shoes with them were more willing to get in there - less of an "ick" factor from slimy concrete floors - so I guess I'd encourage boys to include those on their packing list. The tooth brushing thing makes me laugh a bit. Fear of bad breath has become a major issue among our younger guys - not that they have it necessarily, but that they don't want to be accused of having it. But rather than packing a toothbrush (and actually using it, for goodness sake) they've latched on to those dissolving breath strips instead. Go figure. This one actuallly grosses me out more than the lack of showering. Lisa'bob

I don't know what will work in your community, but around here, scout groups do use these events as fundraisers. You might actually make more in outright donations than in fees or tickets or whatever. I wouldn't get my face painted but I'd probably throw in a couple of dollars to the pack on my way by. Another easy one - some scout groups around here sell bottled water at community events. Again you need to make sure you have the backing of whatever group is running the event, as well as your council's approval. And another: I know a cub pack around here that did a car wash last summer and raised about $600 in 4 hours. Lisa'bob

By the way, what sort of organization is your pack's charter partner? If it is a community group, a church, or PTO, maybe you can set up a booth at one (or more) of their events too. Lisa'bob