Lisabob

Looking for a little guidance here. We've got a boy who is interested in working on the chemistry mb. He's a smart kid who seems to enjoy science a lot. However, he's 11 yo, in 6th grade, with limited prior exposure to chemistry. Last year he did the soil and water mb with a small group of older scouts, thinking it would be exciting (related to environmental science). It was pitched over his head and he ended up being bored. Although he finished the requirements and earned the badge, he seems to have been turned off to other environmental science type badges from this experience. I'm concerned that he might have a similar experience with this badge, which appears directed more toward high school aged boys. I'm thinking he might enjoy the chemistry mb more if he waited a bit. Of course the final choice is his to make, but we'd like to give him some good advice. For those with experience with this mb, would you whole heartedly encourage him to pursue this one now, or would you suggest that he wait? Are there other science-themed mbs that you'd suggest instead? (he already has the reptile & amphibian and astronomy badges) Thanks for the advice Lisa'bob

OK I've seen some discussion of these MB fairs (generally not positive) but they're new to me so please allow me to ask a couple of basic questions. A local university is hosting a MB fair in a few weeks. They've got a laundry list of badges offered, some of which seem both pretty interesting and difficult to find MB counselors for. They have also made clear that there are pre-reqs that won't be covered at this event for some of the mbs. I can see where going to one of these and "doing" a whole bunch of badges in one day is a bad idea. But what about just signing up for one? I'm a little unclear about how these things typically operate - does one shuffle from "class" to "class" in 45 minute segments (or something similar)with limited opportunity for questions and discussion? Or could a scout "hang out" with a mb counselor, thus having an opportunity to engage in meaningful exchange? What about attending one of these as a way to complete mb partials? Here I'm thinking specifically of some of the craft ones like basketry and leatherwork where the scout might not have had time to finish his projects last year at camp and just needs to finish one or two small items. Mind you, I'm not talking about compelling anyone to attend or making the arrangements for them, etc.. I'm talking about presenting the opportunity to the scouts and offering a little guidance ("for those of you who are not quite done with the basketry mb, here's a good opportunity..." - that kind of thing). Ok bring it on - good idea? bad idea? caveats? Lisa'bob

I don't think you will find it in writing anywhere that someone cannot hold both of these positions (and they are actually separate units - cub pack and boy scout troop - not one unit). However, I personally cannot imagine doing both at the same time, let alone doing them both well. So you may have better luck framing your argument in those terms, rather than BSA regulations. Lisa'bob

Lots of Dems I know would vote for McCain (though Romney? that's debatable). Sad thing is, McCain probably can't win his own party's backing in the primaries and he sure isn't about to switch parties. Then there's Elliot Spitzer from NY...maybe he's the guy to tackle big oil? Lisa'bob

Dan - how about going to a den meeting with each den? Even better if you can work it out with the dl so that you can participate with the boys - like playing a game or something - at the one you attend. I know that helped me when I was trying to get to know our new Tigers last year. (just make sure you are clear with the DL about your motives so they don't think you're "spying" on them or something equally ridiculous.) Lisa'bob

Semper I had that same reaction. Yes I think it is important for the CM/SM to know the names of the boys in the unit. If s/he doesn't then that suggests that they aren't spending much time with the kids and thus they aren't getting a chance to really do the job. Perhaps that's because they're busy doing 101 other things that someone else in the leadership really ought to be doing instead, and they simply need more volunteers to lend a hand. For those who are bad with names, by all means use name tags if you need them - though this is largely a skill that can be learned with practice for most people. For those with large packs or troops, yes it is tougher (On occasion I have had to teach courses with 300+ students so I understand that it is MUCH harder to remember names/faces as the group size increases). But an awful lot of the kids I've met in scouting really need this social validation and interaction and just the fact that some adult cares enough to know their name is important to them. Lisa'bob

Eamon obviously I can't speak to your council's situation but I can tell you that around here, the argument that cub leaders don't want to travel really misses the point. Not that this stops certain district and council folks (usually old salts who haven't had contact with the cub program in decades anyway) from trotting it out anyway. In fact, most cub leaders I've talked to are so busy just trying to figure out their basic job and do it well (including getting the basic training under their belt) that they haven't had time to seriously consider doing WB - if they've even heard of it, which most have not. Unlike with boy scouts where most leaders have at least some prior exposure to the BSA, a huge number of cub leaders are brand new to the entire program and have an awful big learning curve to overcome before they even think about WB. Further, around here at least, WB is still marketed primarily to troop and crew leaders, with minimal effort to reach out to cub leaders. No wonder they're not signing up in droves. Perhaps the people who complain that cub leaders just don't want to travel ought to go and actually talk with some cub leaders. (sorry - seems that you found one of the chips on my shoulder!) Lisa'bob

I've agreed to help organize paperwork and mb sign-ups for summer camp this year and I noticed that the summer camp we'll be attending provides a list of merit badge pre-reqs that scouts ought to have done if they expect to complete the mb at camp. I've got two questions. 1. How much guidance/nudging do you engage in, in terms of getting scouts signed up for appropriate mbs? I know that there are no age/rank limits in the vast majority of cases (at least, not technically) but there are several mbs that this camp does not recommend for younger or less experienced scouts. In most cases, I think these are considered to be physically challenging (ex: whitewater mb), although a few might be too intense even if not physically challenging (environmental science?). 2. Once the scouts have made their selections, whose responsibility is it to keep track of whether or not scouts have met the pre-reqs? The camp seems to want a written record from the troop of pre-reqs that have already been met. Does this mean the scouts will find a mb counselor and start working with him or her prior to camp? Does a letter from the SM indicating that Johnny has done items a-c with the troop (but not a sign off from a mb counselor) count? Etc.. I get the feeling that this is a large camp with a pretty active program so that may explain why they seem to be placing a lot of paperwork requirements (in terms of checking off mb pre-reqs, for example) on the troop. I'm just not sure how much I'm supposed to be simply keeping records, and how much I'm supposed to be guiding scouts' choices and fulfillment of the pre-reqs. 2.

EagleinKY writes: "When I look back at partials from Summer Camp, I'm amazed and dismayed at how many don't get finished." OK I admit that this makes me a little crazy too. Half the time it seems like, with another 20 minutes of work, they could be all done. Without crossing the line and pushing too hard, what (if anything) do you do about this? Does anybody do a sort of periodic check in with scouts in their troops to see how (or if) things are progressing? If you're a MB counselor, do you ever contact scouts with whom you had been working to see what's going on? And if you're a parent...do you engage in any gentle prodding? Or not? Lisa'bob

Ed, first and foremost, you made my point for me. Yes, to all those "non liberal" types out there - whether you're conservatives or what have you - I do agree that all of us probably care deeply about the first amendment. Or anyway I certainly hope so. My point was that the basic ideals of the BSA are not limited to any particular political persuasion; despite persistent insinuations that liberals can't/don't/won't support BSA ideals, we liberals support all kinds of values that fit nicely with the BSA's professed beliefs as indicated in the scout oath and law. As for your other questions and comments: I don't recall saying, or even suggesting, that the BSA's decision to keep gay and atheists out violates the first amendment. I think the decision is short sighted. I think it is illogical. I think it is bad for our image. I think it takes our attention away from bigger questions, like how to provide a great program to even more kids like the young man featured in the article in the original post on this thread. I think it will probably change one day because policy is not carved in stone and public opinion evolves. If or when that policy changes though, it won't be because gays and athiests rely on the first amendment to force change - that's not a winning legal argument. In fact I seem to remember that in the majority opinion, the Supreme Court itself used the free assembly clause of the 1st amendment to uphold the BSA's choice of membership requirements; ie, that one cannot be compelled to associate with others (in this case, with gay people) any more than one can be prohibited from freely associating with others. I'm pretty sure we'll disagree on this one but no, I would not have any problem at all sending my son on a camping trip with leaders who were gay, PROVIDED THAT those same leaders otherwise met all of the BSA requirements regarding training and having a leader app accepted by council, etc.. I don't believe being gay can be equated with being a child molestor. And the problem the Catholic church faces isn't that they've got a bunch of gay priests (having grown up as a Catholic I can tell you with certainty that *that* information wasn't news to most Catholics). The problem is that the church routinely covered up the illegal, immoral, unethical, and downright awful actions of a few priests who were pedophiles. Now - if the BSA started covering up for leaders who molest children, then yes of course I (and most other sane people, I hope) would certainly have a problem with that. But that's not the issue. Being gay is not the same as being a child molestor. Lisa'bob

Jerry, what sorts of things were you told differed from one council to the next? Perhaps with some solid examples of the types of things you are talking about, we can have a better discussion. Lisa'bob

BrentAllen, personally I think we could all do with a little more amusement and laughter in our daily lives. So if I've provided that for you, however unintentionally, I know I've made your day better and I'll graciously accept that as a compliment from you. I don't know very many liberals who view "the L word" as a pejorative. I certainly know some people who have attempted to re-define "liberal" to have a purely negative connotation. I think it is the job of liberals, though, to stand up for ourselves. If efforts to turn the word "liberal" into a smear have worked, it is in part because we liberals have not been effective enough in standing up for what we believe in. (images of Mike Dukakis riding around in tank still make me shudder - is that the best he could do??? I'm not a big Howard Dean fan for the same reason - he tends to take attention away from the actual message every time he inserts his foot into his mouth, despite the fact that as governor he actually ran, and governed, as a fiscal conservative) Of course, it might also be in part because too many people on all sides would prefer to engage in name calling and attacks rather than reasoned dialogue which, as jd points out, requires a more serious effort. So, on that note: Here are some things that I believe as a liberal. Personally I think these beliefs fit rather well with the ideals embodied in the Boy Scout Oath and Law. If you don't think so, by all means, let's talk about it. **I believe in standing up for freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, and of petition, both when in support of and when criticizing those in power. And just because such freedom is uncomfortable for some isn't a sufficient reason to curtail it. (A scout speaks the truth) **I believe government can be an effective instrument to reduce social ills like poverty, homelessness, lack of access to quality education and medical care, hunger, etc. (A scout is concerned about other people.) **I believe that government can and should intervene in society to improve relations between majority and minority groups of all kinds, and that governments have a responsibility to also protect minority rights, not just majority rights. (A scout is a friend to all.) **I believe that there's an important difference between national pride, which citizens have every right to feel and express, and national arrogance, which is to be avoided, and that it is important to try to understand other viewpoints, even if one disagrees. (A scout is true to his ...nation; and, He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.) **I believe that one of the best remedies for discontent with government actions and policies is to get involved and work for change. To sit back and wait for others to do it is unacceptable. (If [a scout] thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.) Undoubtedly some non-liberals will find themselves agreeing with at least some of the above too. That's the point: conservatives, liberals, whatever, no one ideological group has a lock on this scouting stuff. And BrentAllen, yup I used the words "screed" in response to your original post. I did that because the tone of your post appeared to suggest that we were descending into knee-jerk hyperbole. Perhaps I misinterpreted your tone though; that's not so uncommon when one only has the printed word to work from (and to me, exaggerated examples and sweeping claims as to the true ownership of values does suggest that we've left the realm of reasoned discourse). If I was incorrect in my understanding of your intended tone then I'll be happy to withdraw my characterization of it - assuming, of course, that you are also willing to consider that you seem to have painted "liberals" with both too broad, and too inaccurate, a brush yourself. Regardless, I really think the original post in this thread highlights many reasons why people of all political perspectives should be proud to be associated with scouting. In my view, the bigger point is, how do we expand the reach of scouting and the positive influence it can have? This argument about whether liberals or conservatives are more supportive of scouting, or scout-like, or however one might wish to phrase it, detracts a bit from the bigger point, don't you think? Lisa'bob

OGE, whoever posted (previously) that OPEC sets prices was misinformed. What OPEC does is set a price goal that they'd *like* to see their oil selling for on the world market. They then establish a quota for how much oil each OPEC member should be producing, in order to meet that price goal. However, they do not have any direct control over world prices. Non-Opec members (Russia, NIgeria, others) may decide to produce more oil and thus increase global supply, driving down price. Hurricanes may hit off shore rigs, thus (apparently) driving up price. Not to mention that OPEC members regularly cheat and over-produce. So while OPEC may have a strong indirect effect on prices (by setting quotas - supply and demand) they do not directly control the price of a gallon of gas. At the moment, one major factor causing (yet another) spike in gas prices is that there has been an increase in the frequency and severity of sabotage on oil pipelines in Nigeria, which produces roughly 20% of the oil that the United States consumes. Not only is this decreasing supply (and thus increasing prices) but the quality of Nigerian oil is also higher, requiring less refining than say, Saudi oil. About 6 years ago when I was commuting 150 miles each way to work a few times a week, I was darned lucky. For a little while gas dipped below .50/gallon where I was living at the time (Southern Indiana - a state with very low gas taxes too). Yup, I guess these were the gas wars of my time. Personally I have no trouble believing that the major gas/oil companies are blood sucking parasites who will engage in price gauging at every opportunity. Still, it seems that people often want to blame foreign countries (like OPEC members) directly for our energy woes and that's not entirely correct. Lisa'bob

I think it depends a little on whether families of the younger boys are likely to want to do resident camp and the strength of the program in both councils. One advantage to a webelos-only resident camp is that you can have somewhat more involved activities that younger scouts would have a harder time with. On the other hand, a well-run pack level resident camp program (including younger and older cubs) can be structured to provide a challenge to the webelos while not losing or overwhelming the younger boys; it is just a little more difficult to do. So: if you are comfortable with the quality of the program at the more distant camp and you have good reason to believe that families of younger boys are interested in doing resident camp too, then sure, go for it and have fun. Lisa'bob

Oops...typo.. I said: "Now if the Dem Party wanted people to think that they were embarrassed by the fact that *some* of their delegates, at their convention, spontaneously (probably) booed a bunch of young men, then they shouldn't have apologized." I meant to say: "If the Dem party wanted people to think they WEREN'T embarrassed...." Don't know why I can't get the edit funtion to work! It keeps telling me I'm not authorized. Lisa'bob

I think the Dems should have apologized too. Yes, you have a broadly defined right to freedom of speech and so you may say things that others find offensive. That doesn't necessarily protect you from adverse consequences though. Among others: you will likely lose friends if you insult them too often; you may lose respect in the eyes of others; if you run a business, you may lose customers; you may even lose your job, if your speech occurs on company time and/or appears to be representing the company you work for (depending on what sort of thing you say, of course). The first amendment guarantees you the right to say pretty much anything, especially regarding political views, but in many cases, it does not guarantee that your speech will be consequence-free. Now if the Dem Party wanted people to think that they were embarrassed by the fact that *some* of their delegates, at their convention, spontaneously (probably) booed a bunch of young men, then they shouldn't have apologized. But I don't think that's the image the Dems really want people to have of their party (picking on children). So even though it was probably not an organized or pre-conceived action by the party organizers, and even if some Dems at the convention were offended in some way by the presence of the BSA, booing children is never appropriate adult behavior and yes, the party should've apologized for the poor manners of a few of its members. On the other hand...to generalize from this very unfortunate incident and say that all Dems are anti-BSA and this is proof, would be incorrect too. Lisa'bob

Sure. Can you make the game into something that revolves around scout skills though? I like one of the previous poster's examples regarding teaching timber hitches, for example. Alternately, the mb portion of the meeting should be so cool that everyone wants to participate. A while back a county sheriff came to one of my son's troop meetings to prep them for a rifle and shotgun camp out. He brought several guns with him (unloaded of course) and did a hands on kind of talk. Guys were hanging on his every word. First Aid mb is another - after teaching the basics the guys were splinting and "rescuing" each other from a mock disaster. Lots more fun than just sitting around being lectured. Some mbs it is harder to do this with, but for the most part I think it is all in how things are presented. Also - how about asking the scouts who don't want to do anything to give a couple of suggestions of specific things they'd like to do? Hang in there with this. Change may not happen right away and you may have some bumps in the road but it sounds like you really know what you want to accomplish here, and that's great. Lisa'bob

Owl62 I'd agree with a lot of what you said. Just one question: whom do you pay to sew on all those patches? Sewing ranks right down there with cleaning toilets on my list of things to do in my free time. I don't own (and don't want) a sewing machine, and when my son was in cubs there was a lot of sewing to do (they've got patches for everything!) between him, my den leader husband, my various pack positions, my woodbadge shirt, and district stuff. Actually I did resort to velcro for the unit #s and position patches on my shirt because I couldn't afford to buy a bunch of different shirts for each position. Plus when someone complains that they don't like how you're doing things (without offering constructive feedback or volunteering to help themselves), it can be convenient to un-velcro that position patch and offer it to them on the spot.... Thankfully I'm finding the rate of change has slowed down now that my son is out of cubs and into boy scouts. And now he gets to sew on most of his own patches - darned if I'll do it for him forever. I made a concession for my husband - who can sew - because it was the only condition he placed on wearing the uniform so I caved, I'll admit. But, ah, hire someone else to do it? Even by hand and with rudimentary skills it doesn't take that long to stitch on a badge. Lisa'bob

Seconding what Neil said about coming up with a ticket from that list...you can absolutely do that. Obviously you're looking at some short, intermediate, and long term goals here. No, you wouldn't/couldn't/shouldn't be able to do all of these in the 18 months that you have to "work your ticket" but so what, units (and personal goals) are always works in progress. You can start some things now, work on some things as part of a wb ticket, and continue working on other things after wb is done and you've earned the beads. Nobody ever said you had to stop helping the unit once your ticket was complete! I have to say that anyone who has put in as much thought as you already have, to develop a list of areas where your program can be even better, will most likely really appreciate and "get" what woodbadge has to offer. In other words Eagle76: you're exactly the kind of leader who SHOULD be taking wb! Lisa'bob

Have you considered going to training yourself and volunteering to help in a more official capacity? It sounds like you enjoy working with the boys and your current den leaders would almost certainly appreciate the help (heck, they might even go to training too if you propose it to them - you can point out how much easier their job would be, since training also includes ideas for running den meetings, etc.). If you want to find out when the next training session is, check with your pack committee trainer (if you have one) or your committee chair, or your local council (many have web sites but you could just call them too). Lisa'bob

Welcome to the forum Wiseskier, My son's troop is doing a "CSI" campout this weekend that the have been building up to for several weeks. As part of it, they've had local police come to a few troop meetings to do presentations and teach the boys about crime prevention and finger printing (ah, both merit badges). At the campout they have several local, county, and state units including a mobile forensics lab group working with them (wish I could've gone, sounds like a lot of fun!). Many of the things they've been doing in the troop meetings and at this camp out will count toward those two mbs; some will not. In order to complete the mbs there are also a few things that the boys would need to do on their own. Most of the boys have elected to do the mbs in conjunction with this month's CSI theme, but a few are just along for the ride and that's their choice - they're still having a good time with it. I don't know what others think but it seems like this is a good set up and a good mix between teaching/structuring worthwhile meetings and yet letting the other scouts decide for themselves whether they want to do the mbs. By the way the PLC planned all of this. Lisa'bob

This is one of those things I do that I know makes my husband slightly nuts. Hey, by the time you get to the bottom of that opened box of cereal (crackers, bisquick, whatever) it is probably already getting a little stale. That brand new box, on the other hand, is fresh. So we compromise. I open the new stuff and he finishes up the old stuff. Gern, need to get those extra boxes out of the cupboard before they make you batty? Find some cub scouts and show them how to make dough boys! That'll use up the bisquick right quick and then your wife can buy (another) new one and you can start over again with the dough boys. Yup, it's a guaranteed way of keeping you involved with the cub program. Lisa'bob

Semper: I've been accused of having alter egos on occasion (and usually not in a good way...) but ah, no, I can't lay claim to Bob White-hood. Only bobwhite-hood! - Lisa'bob

If you care to tell us a little more about the kinds of projects and changes you have in mind, you may be surprised at the many ways in which things can be evaluated (measured). Also, you might find it helpful to think about individual pieces of a project, rather than the entire picture all at once. Tickets are meant to be manageable and more than once my troop guide had to help me rein in my soaring plans and come up with something I could realistically do. In the end I found he was right, darn it. I understand what you're saying. I chose to become heavily involved with our pack before I did WB and I certainly wasn't going to wait around to get started on things that needed to be done right then and there. In fact - this is exactly the mind set that I found many of my fellow woodbadgers had. They were already elbow deep and very committed to bringing about positive change in their units. This is part of what makes WB such an interesting experience. From that view, what WB offers is a lot more than just a handful of tickets. It also offers you an opportunity to develop your vision for the unit and come up with a comprehensive strategy for achieving that vision. As a very busy volunteer (with a day job to support my scouting habits and a family to keep track of too) I found that there was a certain luxury in stepping back from the urgency of my pack's situation and really being able to think, talk, and develop that strategy with the input of other highly dedicated scouters. It helped me see how the things I'd already done fit into the overall picture, and how I might get from where we were to the end goal. Those middle steps between where you are and where you want to be are often really hard to identify alone. Obviously you need to make your own decision about whether to sign up for the fall WB course or to wait a bit. However, it sounds to me like you are focusing too much on the details of the ticket and not enough on why WB is such a good program - which goes well beyond the specific tickets you create. Given that what most people who haven't gone through it already know about WB (emphasizing the tickets themselves), that isn't surprising, but it is nonetheless a bit misguided. I hope that comes across the way I mean it... Lisa'bob

We took the approach that boys should wear the appropriate clothing for the activities that we would be doing. I agree 100% that it is problematic to expect boys to stay neat while painting, etc., and those darn cub shirts are expensive. So for activities like those we made sure to alert parents that uniforms were NOT required, and we always had an extra set of play clothes on hand in case anybody forgot. Frankly, many parents would've had a fit if their boy came home with paint all over the uniform. A couple of people had a real bee in their bonnet about this and would send their child to den meetings dressed in two layers - uniform over play clothes - so that at least they would be in uniform at the beginning of the meetings for the cub scout promise, etc.. I guess that's one compromise you could offer, though personally I felt kind of bad for those kids since they generally looked like stay puff marshmallows in all those clothes. Another option might be to adopt a "class B" pack T shirt or something else less formal (but uniform for the whole pack). That way you get the basic idea of uniforming but you don't risk ruining that $35 shirt. Not to mention that the kids will actually wear a Scout T shirt out in public without complaint and it can be great advertizing for your pack. Lisa'bob