Lisabob

Dan, I agree that when push comes to shove, there are two choices (leave or don't). But there are also many steps along the way. In a situation like the one the original poster described, I hope that any adult would take a couple of minutes to do some fact checking before reaching any conclusion about staying or leaving. As for gambling and scouts: I know that this is something we specifically discussed in our leader training. I'm sure someone else can provide chapter and verse, I can't at the moment but I'm pretty sure it is in the leader handbooks. There is specific language prohibiting gambling, games of chance, etc., on the unit money earning applications. Also, scouts and scouters who attended the national jamboree had to sign off on a jambo code of conduct, which included the following statement: "I understand that gambling of any form is prohibited" (see http://www.scouting.org/jamboree/pdf/67-102.pdf - this is #9 on pg. 5 ) I think many people who are involved in scouting wish to see the unit their child is in reflect similar values. That's not always a bad thing. Most scouting units and scouters I know of do make a rather big deal about the values that we say we are teaching the boys. And as a (somewhat vigilant) mom I admit that I would never turn my child over to any group of people whose values I was uncomfortable with - not even just for a couple of days of camping. So I guess I can see where the poster was coming from. It's just that they need to make sure they have an open line of communication with the troop leadership and give the leadership an opportunity to respond to their concerns. After all, if their 17 year old son earned his Eagle rank with this troop, they must be doing some things right! Lisa'bob

I suspect Kerry may be giving current admin the rope to hang themselves with (figuratively, of course). The longer this story plays, the dumber the admin looks for pushing this issue in a time where support for and trust in the admin is at all-time lows, even among many Republicans. Most Americans won't have any clue who sponsors it (and to a certain extent, it is irrelevant) but they will know that this is something Bush wants and they'll hear about him "losing" this "battle" in Congress too, all of which is good for the Dems. This'll never pass Congress, let alone pass the Constitutional muster at the Supreme Court (if it were to become law and then be challenged). Kerry must know that. I'd have thought the Bush admin would know it too, because they tried this in his first term and were resoundingly defeated by a Republican-majority Congress then too. Lisa'bob

I know that around here it has been a terrible year in recruiting for cub scouts. I won't post specific numbers for my district but it is a major topic of conversation at every scout meeting these days and nobody seems to have been spared. Thing is, around here the relationships with the schools have not changed very much in the last five years, with a couple of exceptions. Most packs are chartered either through PTOs or through churches, but most schools in the area do allow packs to send home flyers, post promo posters and displays, hold events at the school, participate in open house, etc.. So it isn't that we've been closed out of the schools. What little bit of anecdotal commentary I've gotten from parents is that they are a) a lot more people are short on money (lousy economy around here - our state has the highest unemployment in the country) so they just aren't doing anything "extra" and b) a lot more military families that used to be big in scouting are stretched to the limit by deployments and can't commit the time, and c) organized sport programs are successfully pushing into the lower elem. grades around here, to the detriment of our enrollment. The one thing that has NOT come up in all my conversations with people around the district is politics and scouting. It may be a big factor in some areas but not around here. Interestingly enough...our cross over numbers are very good this year. It is still early but so far it appears that we will lose far fewer boys in the webelos/scout transition phase than typical. Lisa'bob

BrentAllen mentioned in another thread that he recently attended an event where the main speaker was an Eagle scout from Brent's council, who had spent several months working in the antarctic as part of a research team through a scout program. That thread was in the Issues & Politics forum, which I'm sure many people don't read, and the mention of this particular program was somewhat incidental to the thread. So I thought it might be worth cross-mentioning it in a more widely read part of the board. I just want to say that programs like this one are a big part of the reason my son loves scouts. What a really cool experience and a way to blend serious skill and growth opportunities with a potential life-long career path. BrentAllen, your whole council must be very proud of this young man. Lisa'bob

We just finished our recharter in Feb. and are getting QU 2006 patches. Not sure how others do it but it seems as though around here, you get the QU patch for the year in which you are rechartering. Lisa'bob

Me too Trev. Maybe it is an anti-bobwhite conspiracy? Lisa'bob

Err I meant: Fotoscout, not Funscout. Sorry about that! (and why won't the system allow me to edit my own messages? ) Lisa'bob

Funscout, I wonder if your experience says more about the particular children in question than about the general difficulties of incorporating kids into the pack when they have to miss meetings due to other obligations. I know we've had boys who were difficult to integrate after lengthy absences. But they tended to be difficult prior to those absences too - it wasn't their absence that made them difficult to handle. We've also had some boys who came and went depending on the sport season and seemed to re-integrate pretty smoothly. If anything, they'd just get an ear-full from their den mates about all the fun stuff they missed while slavishly practicing sport x instead of coming to cub scouts (it was great - we never had to say a word!). As for lengthy projects - this is pretty tricky, I'll agree. We made it the parents' responsibility to get their kid up to speed if they missed the early stages of a project. When possible, we'd provide the parent with the material and instructions prior to our next meeting and ask them to work on it at home with their son. That way everybody could be at about the same stage at the follow-up meeting. Most of the time this worked ok. The only time where it really did not was when the boys wrote their own play (showman activity badge); boys who weren't there just couldn't show up with additional parts for the play, or that would've thrown everyone off. Even then, however, boys who hadn't been involved in writing the play, hadn't been to many meetings, and suddenly showed up unexpectedly, could help make the stage props and take on other supporting roles. Lisa'bob

Welcome to the forum, my3sons. I can understand that you might find this problematic if the leaders are gambling at a troop event. Still, it might be a good thing to ask (discreetly and calmly) about these behaviors rather than just leaving the troop. It is possible that your son was mistaken either in what he thought he saw or in what he thought someone said. I know with my own son that this sometimes happens (inadvertantly) and a quick conversation with the SM and other adults present often sorts things out. If it turns out that your son was incorrect: the troop leaders should still know because, let's look at what your son believed was happening: drinking AND gambling! Obviously this is not the impression that most boy scout leaders want to offer to the boys and (again, assuming that this is *not* what's happening) the leaders might just not realize that this is the impression that some of the boys have developed. Maybe the leaders need to re-think how they come across, as perception is very important. If it turns out that your son was correct: leaders ought to know that they shouldn't be gambling at scout events, but maybe they're playing for pennies and didn't think it would be a big deal. Or maybe they're playing for serious money. Either way, give them a chance to explain what's going on and ask them to make sure that gambling (and drinking!) is not happening at troop events. If they can do that, and otherwise you've had a good experience with this group, again I'd caution a little forbearance before you decide to leave the group. If they can't make a promise that this behavior won't continue then you may need to consider your options. Lisa'bob

Resqman, we had a blast with this one. You could go in a hundred directions with it but here are a couple of experiments that my guys really enjoyed, that we did over the years: Blowing up a balloon using vinegar and baking soda in a pop/water bottle (very cheap, very easy, potentially messy: discussion can follow of how chemical compounds form, combine, why the two mix to give off enough gas to blow up a balloon, etc.) Viscosity experiments (take glasses of various clear liquids/thicknesses - shampoo, molasses, cooking oil, etc.. Drop a brightly colored item like a marble into each. Which one takes the longest to sink/which sinks the furthest and why? Can discuss viscosity, friction, etc. here) Egg drop contests (construct a container for the raw egg out of various household materials - you can get as elaborate and well-planned, or as simple and on-the-spot as you want; see what works best to keep the egg from breaking; discussion of various physics concepts can follow) Dirty penny experiment: does Coca Cola really clean up that nasty penny? What else works as well or better and why? Baking "alternate" cookies or cakes, where you leave out a specific ingredient or make substitutions. Gets an interesting discussion going of kitchen chemistry and you can eat the results if they aren't too gross. Making ooblek - discussion of how/why it forms a "perma-slime". THis is an easy/fun one but somewhat messy. Here are a couple of links to places with a bunch of science experiments. Word of caution though, test drive these at home before trying at a den meeting. I never can get the one where the egg gets sucked into the bottle to work, for example! Need some other ideas? Try talking to your son's science teacher or the local middle school science teachers or, if you have one, a teacher's supply/homeschool supply bookstore. I've always had good luck with that too. http://www.fatlion.com/science/ http://www.sandlotscience.com/ (I liked their optical illusion stuff for the webelos science badge too) http://www.sciencespot.net/Pages/sciclub.html (a wealth of good ideas if you dig around a little bit) The egg drop and the vinegar & baking soda were probably the group favorites. Have fun with it! Lisa'bob

Yup, that's pretty scary stuff. I hope the girls who took and initially sent the photos got in as much trouble as the boys who viewed the photos. Seems like maybe an opportunity for an SM (or whatever your position in the ship is? I'm sorry that I don't know...) minute here. Somehow relating this to the scout law. Not like the kids in your ship won't already know that this has happened so you might as well talk about it. By the way, you did hear the recent news story about some late-teens who had been busted for under-age drinking and had agreed as part of their probation not to drink, etc.. and then used their camera phones to take and post photos on their blogs of themselves drinking, accompanied by taunts of the judge who had given them probation to start with? The judge just happened to come across those photos and the girls ended up with jail sentences. I know that a fair number of college freshmen leave their brains at home but even my 11 year old thought *that* was pretty dumb! (here's to hoping he'll still have some common sense in his head when he's 19!) Lisa'bob

Around here football and hockey are the big culprits. It's not that other sports don't exist, but these two have particularly long seasons and grueling practice schedules. Sometimes these poor kids seem so exhausted and they almost all end up burning out on the sport by the time they reach middle school (just when they're least likely to re-join scouts, based on the "coolness" factor - too bad!) Anyway we too tried as hard as we could to be flexible, re-assure parents that attendance at every event was not required, etc.. (and give as much notice as possible for any special events that the boys really should be at) Some parents will accept that and others - probably the same ones who coach those sports - won't. The only other thing I found that was helpful was to offer rides or car pooling to scout meetings so that the over-scheduled parents of these over-scheduled kids could catch a break. I don't know if it will help but maybe a "gentle" reminder to your husband that this is a temporary deal. If cross over is in Feb or March then for the Webelos II year you're looking at Sept-Feb/March only and then on to boy scouts and (hopefully) a return to your family time on Sunday afternoons. My experience was that boys who quit as webelos due to scheduling issues do not re-join as scouts even after their sport season ends. So if this is what it takes to keep boys involved who want to be scouts, great. Lisa'bob

Oh gosh is this ever a can of worms! 1. What to do with any girls who might be allowed to join (I noticed the language in the "What is the Lion Program" section is gender neutral...) once they graduate K and are no longer allowed in the pack as Tigers. 2. How this relates (or doesn't relate) to the LFL program. 3. How it relates to the current Tiger program. (Funscout - I sure hope parents will still be required to attend w/ the Tigers! I've run a few tiger den meetings and those little guys need more than just 2 adults present or things may really get crazy.) On the other hand, I know that at cub scout round up nights and open house nights, I've been approached by lots of parents of K aged boys, asking if they could join and they've often been put off to be told "not yet." I'm sure that, in itself, this might be a great program if properly run. I just hope someone at national is thinking about (and coming up with good solutions for!) the wrinkles that it will cause along the way. CNY - keep us posted if your son does join in the fall! Lisa'bob

ASM59, don't let this get you down too much. One way to think about your district chair's view: yes, there is an appeal process and it is certainly important to know that it is there. On the other hand, the onus is on the scout to seek out an appeal if he thinks he has been improperly denied, not on you. You don't have to bend over backward to take a scout through the process if he has vanished from sight for a lengthy time, suddenly re-appears, and expects that advancement will be handed to him despite not really doing anything to earn it. You can't try to hide the information or anything, and it is possible that you'll be over-ruled by the appeal to council - but let that happen if or when it does and in the meantime, use your common sense approach. By the way: if I understood Fscouter's and other people's advice properly on this forum, the issue of sign-offs is separate from the issue of BOR denials. If you can deal with a situation at the sign off stage, it won't get to a BOR where a denial might be the outcome, thus no need for an appeal, etc.. I like Eamonn's approach to the parents (and boys) that you only get out what you put in too. A lot of times you can circumvent parental problems without getting into policy details, by having a general understanding with them of what the unit's all about. Lest anyone jump on this, I am not advocating ignoring rules and no, the troop probably should not have a "bright line" attendance policy for advancement which would clearly be a violation of BSA rules. But geez, common sense should certainly apply and I would be unwilling, myself, to sign off on a POR (for example) for a boy who simply has not been there to do it at all. Have fun with the "real" scouting stuff and don't let too many of these hypotheticals get you bogged down Lisa'bob

CNY, you mentioned that the Lion program is getting started in your council. In another thread (girls in cub scouts) there's a question about whether Lions is boys only or co-ed. At least one poster has indicated that in her council it is co-ed, though others have said it is the first they've heard of it being co-ed. Do you have any info as to whether or not the Lion pilot program that your council is going to be co-ed, and if so, do you have any idea what your council plans to do with the girls who join the pack as Lions, once they reach 1st grade and are no longer eligible for cub scout membership as Tigers? Just curious... Lisa'bob

Ask the boy if he considers himself "active" and what he has done to remain "active". I like Fscouter's advice here (pasted, above). When a boy asks for a sign-off where "active" participation is included, I think this is a pretty fair question. Most boys (if not their parents) are likely to recognize when they're really fudging it and it puts the responsibility back on them to either explain where they've been, or else get themselves involved again. Besides, it is better to address this when the boy is seeking sign offs, rather than when they're at the BOR stage. That's not to say we, as adults, should abdicate, particularly if a boy is in a POR and not performing/not showing up. We can hardly challenge a scout's performance/activity in a POR if we don't help him along the way when we see areas where he needs to improve. But I do like the notion of putting the question back to a boy whose activity level in the troop has been non-existent or borderline. It gives him an opportunity to explain extenuating circumstances. Or in the absence of such circumstances, if he is hard-pressed to answer such a question, he is also more likely to be open to a constructive conversation about his involvement. Lisa'bob

John, I absolutely agree that ideally, a pack and troop(s) should work together to organize this event, since both will be taking part. However I would say it is ultimately the pack that is in charge simply because the ceremony is taking place at a pack event (pack meeting). Others may have different experiences, but mine has been that troops are always invited guests at B&G and/or at bridging ceremonies. And the guests aren't in charge of the party. Lisa'bob

I helped organize B&Gs the whole time my son was in cubs and it was never the troop's responsibility to plan or run things; it is the pack's. Now we tried to coordinate with the troop(s) in question so that everyone knew their role and we were always happy to accomodate them if they wanted to do anything special. However, the PACK calls the shots here, not the troop. Also: there's no reason more than one troop couldn't attend a bridging ceremony if you have boys crossing into several troops. We just did this last week - went to a B&G where 2 other troops were in attendance. It worked out fine and all the adults worked together for the best of ALL the boys. If you are dealing with troop leaders who cannot see this, well I'd be concerned about having my boy join their troop; they don't appear to be living up to the scout law very well, themselves. What kind of role model would they be for my boy? Good luck and keep the adult politics under lock and key if you can. Lisa'bob

(I post this with a big grin on my face because the response pattern has gotten to be rather predictable): Jill, most likely without realizing it, your post touched on one of the more divisive issues in the BSA community...GIRLS...(shudder). One sure way to know when this has happened is that sooner or later the "Three Gs" get dragged into things (G-d, gays, and girls) and, as has happened here, equated in some way (note resqman's post) So, feel free to ignore any firestorms that may be going on in the background because they probably have little or nothing to do with you or your actual question. As to your request for BSA regulations: as someone else mentioned, leaders are taught as part of BALOO (Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation - essentially rules for going camping with cub scouts) that sibling participation should be discouraged, but not necessarily banned. However, BALOO also teaches that in the case that siblings of any age/gender are present, age-appropriate activities and appropriate supervision are required. Additionally, mixed gender sleeping arrangements are generally not allowed when camping (though, for councils that run family camps, I imagine this prohibition does not apply to family sleeping arrangements? Our council doesn't do this so I'm not sure). Beyond that, yes, to earn the Tiger/Wolf/bear/Webelos/AoL ranks, you must be a member and various posters are correct in stating that girls, by definition, may not be members. But beyond that...many units do not do everything by the rules. Perhaps they should, and I'd be a little uncomfortable with the idea that packs are awarding rank advancements to non-members (girls or otherwise) - but that's a debate for another thread (in the "Issues and Politics" section) , since all you were seeking here is information and not raging debate. Please don't hesitate to ask more questions here! We're really a pretty nice bunch most of the time. Lisa'bob

Congrats to everyone on your new members! Trev, hang in there! Our troop received 16 new scouts from cross-overs in February (2 NSPs of 8 each, plus a troop guide and an adult patrol advisor for each NSP) so right now we have 24 out of our 41 scouts who are either brand new or just finishing up their first year with the troop. Of the remaining 17 scouts, all but 2 are at least 14 years old and all are 1st Class/above so it is a bit of a challenge sometimes. But it brings new opportunities, including lots of new parent involvement, fresh ideas, and enthusiasm. For us, I think this influx of new scouts is great because it has really convinced some of the more established leaders that we need to pay more attention to how we bring along younger scouts and in my opinion, that's one part of the troop program that has been badly in need of revision anyway. Now that over half the troop is made up of 5th and 6th graders, there's no avoiding the issue. Lisa'bob

Jill, I'm sure I've missed something here but is the Lions program co-ed? We don't have Lions around here yet and I know it is only the pilot stages elsewhere. I hadn't realized it would be co-ed though. If so, what on earth do they plan to tell all those little girls when they finish K? That somehow there's been a magical change and they are no longer welcome in the cub pack??? Seems like a terrible set up to me if that's what's going on. Lisa'bob

Gern, with respect, I disagree with your stance on allowing atheists and agnostics to join BSA so that they may be exposed to the idea of "reverance." To me, this sounds as though you would be encouraging proselytizing as a regular part of the BSA, rather than opening the doors and accepting/respecting the beliefs (or lack thereof) of atheists and agnostics. Lisa'bob

Ed I respect your views but I will say that if we had done that, about half of our leaders (with daughters as well as sons) would have quit. No doubt different packs take different approaches. Ours was to welcome all family members and let them participate whenever possible, if they were interested. For us it was a choice between keeping or losing highly qualified, dedicated leaders (with daughters). Lisa'bob

As someone who has worked at, and run, many summer camps over the years, may I suggest that if you are looking to hire staff for YOUR camp, it would probably help to post additional details (and/or maybe a link to your camp's website) about your camp. I, for one, would not likely respond to a help wanted post where the poster seemed reluctant to offer up any details in public. While I understand the general sentiment behind your desire not to post salary details, etc., I think you aren't going to get much of a response without at least some specifics, and perhaps a range within which salaries typically fall. That way people can make more informed decisions about whether it is worth their time (and yours) to pursue. This will likely cut down on the number of inquiries you need to field from people who wouldn't fit within the parameters you have in mind. Also - most of the folks on this forum are adults so if you are looking to hire youth, you may be better served spending your energies elsewhere. Good luck to you, I know staffing was always one of my larger headaches at this time of year. Lisa'bob

OGE, especially in cub scouts, I think the reason you hear a lot more about economically depressed areas in the context of uniform discussion and not in other contexts, is that most cub packs do not do a lot of expensive outings. While I'm sure there are exceptions, around here when cubs go camping, they frequently borrow gear from a local troop rather than buy their own, and they usually don't go very far (or very long, or in really lousy weather conditions) so they don't need a lot of expensive or specialized gear. And of course they don't attend places like Philmont either. Resident camp is the most expensive activity that most packs take part in, and they usually work hard to defray the cost via popcorn sales or other fundraisers. Expenses like that can be planned for far in advance, and dealt with incrementally. Uniforming, for packs that require it, tends to be a more up front, immediate cost that parents pay out of pocket. That isn't to say cubs don't have fun or that they don't get outside - but that they do it in a low/no cost kind of way most of the time. So for most cubs, the biggest expense related to joining (other than possibly dues) is going to be the uniform. I must say that in the year since my son joined boy scouts (from cubs) I've been appalled at the attitude some leaders seem to have toward money. I've met many who seem to believe that all families involved in boy scouts have a wealthy uncle who foots the bill or something and think little of asking boys (parents) to shell out A LOT of money on short notice for various activities (I'm talking upwards of $200 for trips, often with just a couple weeks' notice). We would never have expected the families in our cub pack to do that and they'd have screamed bloody murder and probably quit if we had . Lisa'bob