Lisabob

At the end of the day I think this is your CO's call to make. But if I were the CO, among other things I would ask whether this is likely to be a major distraction to the troop, if he stays. Will his name and the lurid details of the matter be all over the small-town papers? In that case, how will he respond if one of the boys asks him about it? Will his continued, active involvement result in his son being in the spot light in a negative way (assuming he has a son in the troop)? Other than stay/go, there is also the possibility of stay, but take a somewhat less visible role. Maybe hold a committee assignment for a while, for example. Just a thought. Sounds like a tough situation all around.

Well I hadn't heard of it and neither had any of the OA members in our troop (they have now) - so thanks!

thanks for your suggestions so far. Any advice on "training" our new DE?

I don't have a problem with having positions that allow scouts of differing abilities to demonstrate leadership in ways that are consistent with what they can actually do. Leadership comes in many forms, and really, they are positions of RESPONSIBILITY, which as someone else pointed out, differs a bit from leadership anyway. I do have a problem with scouts who are capable of much more, shirking by choosing "light" positions on purpose and then only barely living up to even the lightest definition of responsibility. And I have a far bigger problem with SMs who allow this to continue. And in point of fact, if you aren't the SM and the person who *is* the SM isn't interested in holding the boys to a higher standard, then there's little to nothing you can do about it, other than find a different troop or wait out the SM. We have a boy in our troop now who is in this very position. He's quite capable but well known for cutting corners every chance he gets. He has been troop historian but has not yet done a single thing in that capacity. He will soon have fulfilled his 6 months and will get credit for his tenure toward Eagle rank. This bothers me a great deal, but our previous scoutmaster wasn't interested in challenging (confronting?) this scout and our new scoutmaster has really come to grips with the situation a bit too late in the process to tell this scout "no" at the very end of his time with just a couple of weeks left. I am hopeful for a more robust set of expectations for all of our PORs going forward, but I do think we've let down our standards for this particular scout, that he has taken advantage of that fact, and that it is really at a point where not much can be done except to do better in the future.

hotdesk, Can you clarify what you mean by "4. Prepare MB Books for Merit Badge Days and Summer Camp" for your troop librarian? What type of preparation are you talking about here?

Our DE has announced that he is retiring in a couple of months. After reading some other people's posts on this forum about what their DEs do and don't do, I have reached the conclusion that we were really lucky to have this guy. Perhaps it is because he wasn't a life-long BSA professional and came to us from the "real" world late in his career, or perhaps because he is actually from this area and knows it well, or perhaps because (I think) he got into this for a love of scouting (having been a scout, a parent of a scout, and a scouter first), but he has been a great supporter of scouting at the unit level and also of the notion that the district exists to support the units, not the other way around. I'll be sorry to see him go. Two questions: 1) What would be a suitable way of acknowledging this man's service (he isn't having any fancy retirement dinner, etc. - a scout is thrifty after all), and 2) How can we best prepare whoever our new DE will be, or prepare ourselves for him/her? There is no word yet on who that will be, which leads me to think it is probably going to be a brand new person with no knowledge of the area and little experience in the job. The council already got one new and fairly inexperienced fellow last year - seems like a nice guy but there's a learning curve for him. I'm coming at this both as a unit-level scouter and as district membership chair. Would appreciate your thoughts.

Err, you meant OBama, right there local?

I want to second ScoutNut's comment about double elim. races. One year our pack nearly fell apart as a result of parental disputes over such a system, and it was not pretty. Yes, a double elim race can be well-run without parental anger flaring up, but I think the chances for problems are greater with that format than with the one ScoutNut describes (and the one we subsequently adopted). Whatever format you decide upon, make extra-double sure that all of the participants and their parents fully understand how things are going to work BEFORE you start. I've never heard of a council running a pack's PWD. Is that common in your area?

Asking for the letters is a requirement, but I'm not sure receiving all 5 back is a requirement, since that is truly out of the control of the scout in question. Still, you should be able to get your parents to do a letter very quickly, and the same probably will hold true if you call back your references and explain to them that you do need a written ref. after all. Most of the ones I've seen are short and to the point, not requiring that much effort on the writer's part, so just ask them. Good luck with your SM conference and the rest!

John, out of curiousity, what made that one of the worst? This matter of generic recognition vs. forcing one's beliefs upon others is something that I see as rather tricky to navigate, even in a group that is mainly Christian. I don't doubt that it can be done but I can see why many troops prefer to stay clear.

No, there are still 4 names on the Democratic ballot (Clinton, Dodd, Gravel, Kucinich) but Edwards, Obama, Richardson and Biden have chosen to sit out of this race. Clinton, Dodd and Kucinich have pledged not to campaign here until after the primary. Mike Gravel actually did a tour through the most populous area of the state before Christmas, but my estimation of him is that he's a nut job and not likely to do well even without competition. Dodd dropped out after yesterday's poor showing in Iowa. Expect to see a lot of Michigan votes for Kucinich I guess. Whatever the results may be, the Democratic national party has pledged not to accept delegates from MI at the national conference in the summer, making us worth zero "points" in the race for the Democratic nomination. So it is moot point really. We could mount a write-in campaign but probably most Democrats will just stay home. As you can probably tell, I'm pretty annoyed about this whole matter. Way to go, Michigan, for effectively disenfranchising us, and the worst of it is I can't even blame the "other" side because our Democratic governor approved this idiotic plan. (Normally I like her - on this one, she was badly wrong) On the Republican side, they aren't playing this stupid drama game. The national party organization grumbled when the primary was moved and then got on with things. Romney has a sort of home-turf advantage but he and Huckabee were running neck-and-neck in December, even before the Iowa "bump" and Giuliani and McCain weren't that far behind.

What an interesting interpretation, packsaddle. That had never occurred to me but I can definitely imagine it happening. Most cub packs in our area are even less focused on religion than local troops, so it might be quite surprising to some parents when their boy crosses over and things are different. Now I'm curious - can someone tell me about the origin of that "May the Great Master of All Scouts be with us til we meet again" blessing/request? Typically our chaplain's aid will end troop meetings with a non-denominational prayer and this closing but that's about as religious (in any organized sense) as things get in our troop. Anyway, Venividi is correct that I wasn't really looking for advice - this woman in question has a reputation for seeing how far she can push to get her way and I think she's discovering where the lines are in the troop - but I appreciate the advice anyway. Always good to get other perspectives.

Yep, Michigan's legislature effectively screwed us Democrats out of a real voice at the national party convention by defying the Democratic party and setting our primary so early. I'd be even more steamed about it, except MI has this funny rule that any registered voter can vote in any primary without regard to party identification. Most states don't operate this way. So this year I am voting in the Republican primary. I figure, it doesn't much matter what the outcome of the Dem party primary is and here's my best chance to sabotage the Reps! (yeah, just kidding, more or less, about the sabotage bit - let's call it strategic voting instead, sounds less sinister).

Well ok since this is the issues and POLITICS section, hey, what about the Iowa results? Last I checked, the numbers looked like this: Democrats: Obama (38%), Edwards (30%), Clinton (29%), Richardson (2%), Biden (1%), Dodd, Gravel, Kucinich (0%). Biden and Dodd have since said they'll drop out of the race. Republicans: Huckabee (34%), Romney (25%), Thompson and McCain (13%), Paul (10%), Guiliani (4%), Hunter (1%). We're about to move on to New Hampshire, South Carolina , Michigan (sort of - not really for Democrats), and Nevada. Whadda ya all think of these folks now, especially if you're in one of the upcoming states?

Ed, she's more than welcome to pick up her kids early (as do a few other families in the troop), but she found that to be an inadequate solution because it would inconvenience *her.* For whatever the reason may be, our troop has not done Scout Sunday services on camp outs. We are not chartered by any church and no one has brought this up anytime recently (ie, not within the last 3-4 years). I'm certainly not opposed to it, but I think it is sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie, as with this one exception, the rest of the troop seems quite happy with things the way they are. It has been politely suggested to this woman that perhaps she'd like to find another troop - there are three others right in town who are each chartered by a different Christian church, for example. But I think she prefers to stay put for whatever reason. My bigger point was, this lady misunderstands the BSA's position and is unwilling to accept that she's wrong. She'd probably pitch a fit if she knew we also had a couple of Muslim scouts and other non-Christians in our troop and in other troops in the area. In the process she has mis-informed other people, particularly a couple of local cub leaders whom she has managed to convince that she knows what she's talking about (she doesn't). This kind of behavior, which I think isn't all that uncommon sadly enough, certainly produces an impression of exclusivity, to the detriment of kids and the BSA everywhere.

Yes OGE, you are absolutely within your right to protest. Write letters, stage alternate exhibits elsewhere, boycott the exhibit or the museum itself, hold rallies or press conferences to make your point and so on, within legal means of course. Be thankful that the 1st amendment guarantees this right, just as it guarantees others the right to freedom of expression even when it irritates or offends you. What I find abhorrent is the idea that the government should determine which things get to go in an art gallery and which ones do not. This is, after all, the same gov't that people routinely (and perhaps rightly) ridicule for bungling everything from trash collection to national defense policy. You really want those folks deciding what constitutes art? Not me. Don't forget, just a few years ago then-Attorney General John Ashcroft required the statues in some federal buildings in DC to be "clothed" because they offended his sensibilities, for goodness sakes! Imagine what a hissy fit he'd have had if he set foot in practically any art museum in the country.

I've never seen anyone wearing a district patch in our council. We're a new (re-drawn) district and at the moment we don't even have a district logo, let alone a patch.

interesting question FScouter. I guess I never thought it was a bad thing for people to think on their own, rather than to be told what to think. And I guess there are also lots of different ways to think about such a work. Perhaps that's part of the point? We could say the same thing about a lot of Andy Warhol art. I mean really, why couldn't he have just told us his thoughts about commercialism and mass consumer culture, rather than doing his (now) iconic portrayal of the Campbell's soup cans, right? But I think it would be a good deal more boring if everyone were required to communicate in the same way. I like the notion that we can spark ideas, new thoughts, or even just plain old emotions, using a variety of media besides talking heads or straightforward explanatory prose. Not to say I'm especially enamored of these couple of examples of art, but I'd really rather not have Rudy Guiliani (or anybody else from the gov't) telling me which pieces of art are "art" and which ones aren't. I like to humor myself that I'm smart enough and mature enough to make that determination on my own, thanks. And hey, if I don't like it, well I can always move on to another exhibit more to my tastes.

Welcome to you! And congrats on earning Eagle. What are your plans for scouting now that you've become an Eagle?

Thank you Beavah, and while we're on the subject of global hot spots and tragedies in the making, can we please add the people of Pakistan to the list of people to pray for. I fear for what will happen next in that region.

Fascinating turn of the threads. Piss Christ was certainly offensive to a lot of folks, so was the more recent painting of Mary smeared with elephant dung. And it may also not be pleasing to the eye (or nose?). But does art have to be beautiful to be art? I think there is a pretty strong tradition of art being something other than eye candy, although I can't pretend to always understand/appreciate/agree/care whether something should "qualify" as art vs. rubbish. Doors painted brown and laid on saw horses, for example. But then, I love Jackson Pollock and his is hardly "art" in some people's eyes. Lots of people felt that Picasso's cubist work wasn't "art" at the time too, because it didn't portray a realistic image of the human body. Anyway about the Piss Christ, I seem to recall that then-mayor Guiliani wanted to yank all funding from one of the NYC art museums for displaying it, using the argument that public dollars should not support obscenity which, in his view, Piss Christ was. I also seem to recall he lost in court when he tried that - that pesky 1st amendment bit about gov't not limiting freedom of expression again. And I can certainly imagine, though I may not necessarily agree, how such an artistic rendering could have deeper religious or even political interpretations about religion and society. So if it makes a person *think,* even if the thoughts are angry ones, then is it art? Hmm.

In the 4-H thread, Ed quotes from the 4-H literature regarding religion as follows: "it creates the impression that 4-H is not open to all regardless of their religious standing." Well now here's something I think is important enough to consider. Note that the quoted text stresses the "impression" of exclusion, not necessarily the fact of exclusion. Boy I wish we would pay more attention to this in scouting, where even aside from the *actual* exclusionary policies of the BSA (not to belittle them, and I would prefer to see those changed too) many people seem to believe we are also a Christian (or perhaps, Judeo-Christian) organization. Of course we aren't. But impressions matter, and people don't change them easily either. Just recently I had a fairly heated exchange with a woman who was upset that the troop comes back from most camp outs late morning/early afternoons on Sundays. She would like to have us return earlier so her children could make it to their church's service at 11am. Given traveling distances, it ain't gonna happen and she was politely informed of this, but also suggested she pick up her kids from the campsite early on Sunday morning if it is an issue for her family. She went ballistic - accusing the troop of forcing her family to choose between scouting and church, when after all, scouting "is a Christian program." No amount of discussion would talk her out of that view. At risk of re-starting the argument I will likely dig out the appropriate BSA reference for her perusal at the next committee meeting. I'm going to make extra sure to include that interview with the fellow (don't recall who it was though?)who said a scout could hold a rock in his back yard to be a higher power, for all he cared. That should be worth a grin. :') As it happens most people in this area are Christian, but for those who are not, it isn't hard to see where they might get an impression that they are not welcome from a person like that. And yes, she's a trained leader who should know better. And no, she's not unique, I'm sure. So in 2008 I hope we will all do our best to give more accurate impressions of who and what the BSA is, and to highlight the many good things our organization does in our communities. Let's work on changing some impressions.

We have three boys I can think of who made 1st Class either in the first year or very close to it (12-15 months). This is not typical in our troop. All three have very strong external motivating factors such as parental expectations, sibling rivalry, and/or desire to accumulate awards, whether in scouting or sports, or other aspects of their lives. Of the three, one seems to genuinely love scouting; the other two (brothers) seem to be involved because they are required to be, and if/when they get to Eagle I doubt we'll see them again. This isn't to say they're not getting anything from the program along the way though. I'd say probably all three are adequate (not stellar) with regard to basic skills except for knots and lashings, which I rather doubt any of them are any good with - but this is also a broader troop issue since they seldom have reason to need these skills (not saying I'm excited about this, but that's reality as I see it). I'm not sold on their leadership abilities at this point in time but I really don't think that is what earning 1st Cl. should be about anyway. I'm more concerned when we see boys hitting star and life at a very young age, then when they make 1st Cl. at a young age, because few 11 and 12 year olds possess the maturity to lead. All three of these boys are in attendance at most camp outs and most troop meetings. But what sets them apart from other boys in their cohorts is that they have someone pushing them at home who also helps them get their books signed or meetings with MBCs arranged - in one case, two older brother Eagles and a persistent dad who is also our advancement chair, in the other case, the two brothers push each other, their parents have been talking about "Eagle" since the boys joined as Tigers, and the committee chair lives down the street from them. And in all three cases, personally, I think the parents take on too much responsibility for smoothing the way for their sons. For example, the parents will ask the SM questions the boys should be asking, or will tip off an MBC that their son wants to work with the MBC in question on X merit badge, on this or that day, or will tell a couple of ASMs that their boy needs to get a sign off for a particular skill and can that be arranged at the next camp out. More typical for our troop is that boys earn tenderfoot around 10-12 months, 2nd class between 12-18 months, and 1st class between 18-24 months. But we also have a number of quite active boys (like my son and also our current and two previous SPLs) who attend almost everything, step up for PORs, go to camp in the summers, and just are not that excited about advancement as a motivator. While not the norm, it isn't uncommon for an active boy in this troop to make it to 1st class, Star, Life, or Eagle after 2 or more years at the previous rank. Consequently, most boys who earn Eagle are 15-17 (though we had a barely-14 year old Eagle last year), and we have as many boys (or more?) age out as Eagle-and-out.

Dunno about all those slacker youth you guys are describing. This year my son's troop is going dog sledding, snow tubing at a place with a great hill but a lousy ski lodge, canoeing, backpacking, and rock climbing. They will have an aviation-themed campout in late spring, together with some of the good folks from the local Young Eagles chapter and hopefully this will include going up in a small plane (still working on details). Last winter they went luging on the US olympic training track - my son's favorite camp out to date. Last summer our older boys did a week-long sea kayaking trek and a few others went to sailing school. This summer we're going to a different camp but there's a whitewater program that some of our older boys will probably do, and we have a bunch of 13-14 year olds who are eyeing the camp's COPE program with great interest. They've never done anything like it before and it seems like a big adventure to them. Now our troop does not typically send a contingent to Philmont or Florida's Sea Base and I wish we would do more to encourage our older boys to participate in our council's annual trips to one of these locations. And we don't do nearly as much back-country packing as I might like to see either - but then, the boys choose a varied calendar full of outdoor adventure with several exciting new programs each year, and we have more boys age out of the troop (at whatever rank) than just Eagle-and-out, which says something to me about the appropriateness of the level of adventure. If anything, I've found that there are some stick-in-the-mud adults who seem to want the boys to do the same old thing every year, regardless of the boys' interests. And I've found too, that the boys tend not to know what is possible, beyond their own limited experiences. So to get really big new ideas planted takes some effort. They need to be taught how to locate information on new options, and how to take a seemingly BIG adventure and break it into manageable pieces. But they aren't couch potatoes and they are willing to try new things. So I'm pretty happy about that.

jwall, welcome to the forum and sorry to hear about your situation. Having read through this thread I think your best option is probably to find another troop in your area. If the SM has the CC's backing and isn't interested in a helping hand from his ASMs then you are in for a rough ride if you stay. Things probably will not change radically anytime soon, especially if the current SM's son is going to be there for a while (which tells me the SM isn't going to go willingly, and you've already tried ousting him, to no good end). Your dis-satisfaction with the current situation will almost certainly be evident for your son, even if he is more or less ok with the troop right now. Just keep in mind that there are no "perfect" troops, that it is easier to critique a leader than to be one, and that ultimately this is your son's experience - you're along for the ride so give a lot of weight to his opinion on what troop he wants to be part of.