Lisabob

I've never heard of an audit like you are describing. Did the CO and DE give you any guidelines? I wish you well with the endeavor, and perhaps you could let us know what sorts of things you do end up looking at, in the case that anyone else should find themselves in a similar position at some future time.

Ha, LOL Bob. Wife? yes. Old? I don't think so, not yet anyway! Believe what you want, makes no difference to me.

Bob, I'm beginning to think maybe you didn't read what I wrote. We DID contact the central region. We DID in fact get their contact phone # from our council staff since no website could be located. However we got nowhere with central region until our council staff pushed - hard - for them to get things done so we could go to camp with proper documentation. In fact if we were "guilty" of doing anything "wrong," it would only have been that we were operating under the assumption that, when told it would be taken care of the first several times, we believed them. As for this being a rare occurrence? Well I certainly hope so, but then you see multiple, similar, stories from others in the same region here and you begin to wonder. Anyway I'm done with this thread for now. Maybe I'll post an update when we go through the national tour permitting process for summer camp 09.

OAwww, I'd really like to hear from you why you might be disappointed to see the return of cooking as an eagle-required badge?

Bob, you make the assumption that none of those things (courteous phone calls, re-submission, timely submission to start with, etc.) have happened. I cannot speak for anyone else's experience and I can't make you believe mine. However, in 2007 when my son's troop needed a national tour permit for summer camp, we submitted our national tour permit in late February. We followed up with our council staff in March, April, May, and June. We followed up politely with central region in April and May. We were first told that they had it, then told that they didn't have it. We re-submitted at that point. We followed up some more. In mid June, we began getting really worried. Our council staff began pushing central on our behalf. In late June we were really, really worried. Our council staff pushed harder on regional office. In early July just a few days before our trip, we finally got our permit. I am willing to suppose that this was unusual, that something just slipped through the cracks, and that it should not be a regular occurrence for a national permit to take close to 6 months for processing. On the other hand I am unwilling to accept your assumption that we screwed up or somehow mis-managed this process on our end, because I am quite well aware that we did not. Based on my troop's experiences, I am also not unwilling to believe it when others from the same area independently come forward with similar stories. I'm not entirely sure I understand why you feel the need to assume that everything is the fault of the volunteers. It is equally possible that sometimes the volunteers do everything right and some of the professional staff mis-handle things. Condescending attitudes toward volunteers are really unhelpful and (in this case at least) unwarranted. I want to add that Central appears to be the only region without a website (except for venturing), unless they've recently changed this. I know because last year when attempting to get our tour permit straightened out, I tried in vain to find contact info for the regional office on line.

nldscout, The camp and high adventure base our troop attended in NC last year required us to show proof of a national tour permit too. We submitted it months in advance and only got it a couple of days before departure, after repeated pressure was brought to bear on the regional office. It sounds like this is a common issue for CENTRAL region, though apparently not for other regions. Hello...anybody from Central paying attention out there? Please fix this!

A couple of times, but at least once when it was among adults (but in front of scouts). A former adult leader from our troop made some ethnic slurs about a woman who had recently walked past the assembled troop (in a public area) and I pointed out the fallacy of his statements. He then made additional offensive comments and ended with the statement to the effect that anyway, she couldn't have been an American because she was speaking another language (on her cell phone) so why did anybody care what he called her! He got an earful from some folks. From that point I noticed the other adult leaders also shunned him and he (and his son, unfortunately) quit the troop shortly after that. This same fellow had a very poor attitude toward one of the scouts in the unit who was of the ethnic background that he felt so free to insult. I wasn't sorry to see him go and I was happy to know that other adults in the group were unwilling to encourage such behavior. Last year, our troop was discussing the possibility of doing a couple of joint camp outs with an inner city troop. A couple of boys made comments that reflected their lack of contact with people of other backgrounds except maybe as stereotypes from movies (nothing as offensive as what I read your post to suggest Trev, but still bigoted). As in your situation, other boys stepped in to put a stop to such comments and point out why they were inappropriate. Good for your SPL that he handled the situation so well.

Thanks for the info guys! I'm already excited for our boys about next summer. Doug, we've talked about a bus. I fear it would cost even more but it can't hurt to look again (we looked 2 years ago and were blown away by prices then). Thanks for reminding me to think a little more about options though.

We had a heck of a time getting ours last year (also in Central region) and had to have our council folks call and badger the regional office multiple times. Now you mention it, thanks for the reminder - I think I'll file NOW for NEXT year's camp. (Grr)

Any word on why in color? All that tends to do is make printing more expensive. Not sure I see a need. Thanks for passing along the info. I'm happy to see cooking back on the list for Eagle (from another thread)

Wow, lots of responses. Thanks for sharing some examples. About the money and refunds, we specify on our summer camp forms that if a boy is sent home, it is at the parents' expense and no fees will be refunded. Question: Could you easily imagine sending a boy home for fighting (shoving, punching type stuff) with another scout? If so, would you also send home the scout who fought back? (is it zero tolerance in your book)? I want to be clear that I'm talking hypothetical situations and I know it is hard to answer sometimes but your input is appreciated.

I can understand the point about scheduling issues that Brent is trying to make. When camps are set up like this, it is hardly the scout's fault that he needs to choose MB classes far in advance, or else miss out entirely. Still, a scout is courteous and filling a space that he has no intention of actually using, isn't courteous to those scouts who would have liked to take the MB in question. But I have heard many good reasons for ditching MB classes, just from my own son. First year at camp? Ditched some because toward the end of the week he was having more fun catching frogs and hanging with the older boys who befriended him (big important deal to him, since he was a lonely 11 year old provo scout with no one from his troop in attendance). Second year at camp? Ditched one because of truly poor quality of class. Third year at camp? Ditched one because the MBC picked on him for 3 days straight for not being the "right" religion (I kid you not). Ditched another because a troop adult insisted on attending too and wasn't a pleasant person to be near. Fourth year? Got really smart, chose classes that he couldn't wait to get to (rifles for 2nd time, canoeing, climbing) with people he knew he could get along with, and was also lucky that the camp had an outstanding staff of MBCs. Says he didn't skip a single session. If his SM had thought to reprimand him for any of the above, I'd have been pretty seriously annoyed. I thought he might be on the 3 year plan for rifles by the way, Calico...(but he finished it, to my surprise). Thanks for the fishing story.

I've looked carefully at retention figures for my district and concluded that the numbers by and large back up what Neil has to say (although we see a very large decline in boys moving from Tigers to Wolves as well). What the retention numbers do NOT typically show, and where I think Stosh has an excellent point, is boys who cross over from webelos into a troop but never complete the paperwork to officially join. Those numbers tend to be much worse for many troops. But not to get too far off the track, consider what your troop does that is fun. Sell it. Make sure that you are participating in community events in a visible way. I've heard many folks say "we didn't even know boy scouts still existed around here" because they never see boys in uniform (or at least Scout T shirts!) in public. Get your troop in the news for cool/fun stuff you've done. Send photos to the local TV stations, news media, including radio (think website, not just on air). Advertise through your local community center or rec center if they'll let you. Pretty soon parents will be looking through rec center brochures for early fall activities for the kiddos. 5th and 6th grade boys are still largely driven by what their parents want them to do so if you catch their parents you at least get a shot at the kids too.

In my son's troop it is typically planned by the advancement chair and run by him, with token involvement of the SPL and some other boys. I wish it weren't that way because I find them to be very boring and dry with insufficient focus on the youth and their achievements. But that is still how our troop does it.

OK let me be more concrete about this. I'm curious. Under what kinds of circumstances HAVE people actually sent boys home? Bob, I know what the book says and I also happen to agree with the basic logic of your first paragraph. It just wasn't really what I was asking, is all.

What does it take? Where is your personal line? I'm not asking for a "book" answer. I'm asking, what behavior would you throw up your hands and say "that's it, you're going home now" to a boy?

I don't see very many experienced parents worrying once their child has made it through one summer camp, but the parents of some of our first year scouts do worry quite a bit. Some have never entrusted a non-relative with the care of their child for more than a day or so. Some come from very conservative religious backgrounds and worry about their son being exposed to people who do not live that way and so could be a "bad influence." A few worry that their very rambunctious kid will take too much advantage of the relative freedom of camp to get into real trouble, and a few worry that their very shy kid just won't be able to handle being surrounded by (scary?) older boys all week. For my son's troop, we try to keep all of this in mind, especially because we camp a couple hundred miles away in the "nearby" years, and several more hundred miles away in the opposite "far away" years. Coming home or riding to the rescue if things aren't working out becomes a near-impossible proposition in those far away years, or at least not without considerable logistical hassle and cost. We have found that it helps new parents feel more comfortable if a couple of other new parents go to camp with the troop. Unfortunately that's not always possible. As for me? I grew up at camps from the time I was 2 or 3 years old so no, I don't worry too much. I know what the issues are likely to be and I've done all I feel I can to help my son develop enough common sense and coping skills to deal with most situations. Camp is his chance to stretch his wings a bit. He's coming back this weekend. I hope he had a good time!

acco, what you are asking is not specified, you're correct. And I'm sure local practices differ. However, most councils I have become familiar with specifically indicate that boys who are done with K are considered new 1st graders, the day that they finish kindergarten. This allows for spring Tiger recruitment in the lead-up to day camp. The council I'm in officially begs packs to recruit graduating kindergarten boys to join as of June 1st so they can go to day camp. And again, scoutnet shifts existing cub members to the next den level on June 1. Consequently, yes, it is possible to have a 5 year old "new 1st grader" join as a Tiger cub. I do know a few packs who don't like to accept new Tigers in June and prefer to wait until September. The rules also allow for this, but do not require this approach. I hope that helps a bit. Again, there's more flexibility here than is typically the case with boy scout requirements.

Firekat, camperships are typically limited to scouts from that council (and our council does not have a summer camp program so no luck for us there - we're permanently without a home camp.) I want to thank you for your input. There are a bunch of different ideas here and I will be taking them back to our committee for discussion. If people come up with more, please let me know!

acco, I think that's what the "ages and stages" portion of NLE is supposed to accomplish. Although I am not certain how effective it is, and people only ever need to sit through NLE once in their whole time as Scouters, at least BSA has attempted to speak to this topic somewhere/somehow. But yeah, having an honest discussion about development could be really useful. I know it is one thing I value about scouting, as a parent of an only child (and he's the oldest boy in the extended family too), is the chance to learn from parents of slightly older boys what I might expect/look forward to/dread in the years to come.

acco, you did indeed muddy the waters. Yes there are both age and grade guidelines and some packs operate by one over the other. None the less, this is typically a pack, not an individual, call, and the great majority of packs that are not LDS operate on a grade-level basis. As for when the switch happens, national has used June 1 for as long as I've been aware of. This is when all the records in scoutnet shift. Most packs I'm familiar with use the end of the school year as the point at which a boy moves up to start the next rank. Again, some packs choose the start of school in the fall instead and I can see an argument for that, although I think end-of-school makes better sense. But as long as the pack is consistent so you don't have some dens doing one thing and other dens doing another, I don't think it is a huge deal. There is more flexibility in this for cubbing than is the case in boy scouts where age limits come into play. Typically boy scout age limits are hard and fast (13 for certain high adventure, jambo, etc.)

Actually Eamonn, I'm concerned about that too. I'm not sure it is kosher, although maybe less of a problem for boys coming from a pack that the CO also sponsors than for boys from non-CO packs. Our CO is thoroughly oblivious and seems to prefer to stay that way, but there's still this business of whether it is right. If any money they earn goes to the troop to be divvied up among participants later after cross-overs have joined, only given to (at that point) troop members? Then is it more defensible in your eyes?

Crew21, perhaps there is misunderstanding all the way around. I don't object to being placed in a situation which a boy might face and I don't object to the patrol organization that is used in several scouter trainings. I definitely don't object to being reminded to consider how a situation looks through the eyes of a scared new tenderfoot scout. For example, in another thread recently, someone was talking about a first-year boy scout who was alleged to have cheated his way through the swimming requirement to inflate clothing and float on it. Somebody else pointed out that what seems simple to us, might indeed have been very scary to a young scout who wasn't sure it would work or that he could do it. Being reminded of the different mindset youth have from adults, can be quite valuable. I do (and did) object to using the patrol structure as a way to bludgeon adults. In WB, one thing that I found useless was that our CD and SPL and Guides were often late for things. Our CD frequently changed the directions or rules at the last minute. He would then either tell us this was a lesson in how the boys feel when adults do these things to them (which, I agree, happens too easily - adults are not always thoughtful about how their caprices impact the youth) and/or he would berate the PLs of the day for "not communicating" or "not asking enough questions" as if they should have read his mind and known when it was about to change. Sheesh. I felt, and still do, that this was just a really poor way to treat people of any age, and that "playing" at being frustrated youth scouts was hardly a worthy teaching technique. I don't object to some role playing activities (and in fact I use them in my classes sometimes), but the truth is that skillfully setting up and debriefing from a role-play scenario is hard to do well and take a lot of prior thought and preparation - two things I seldom see much of in scouter training. I'm sorry if that sounds cynical but it is based on plenty of experience with low-quality trainings. The actual exercise itself is easy for the instructor (sit back and let them role play away the time) but of no use if the set-up and de-brief aren't carefully done. I do object to being with a group who are told to channel their inner 11 year olds and ham it up. Some will ham it up to ridiculous proportions, just to play the class clown. The rest may try to take it seriously, but reality is that we just can't go back. We will never be 11 years old again and pretending/ play-acting is therefore contrived, at best. So role playing needs to be focused, well-prepared and followed up with a carefully guided discussion, and the duration should not be stretched past the point where the players get the point of the exercise, or it just becomes ludicrous. I'm guessing we're probably in more agreement than disagreement?

The way that the Wolf and Bear program are set up, the boys can work on electives any time during the year. They do not get the actual arrows though, until after they earn the rank. It is not uncommon for a boy to receive his wolf badge and 3 or 4 arrow points all on the same occasion, if he has been working on electives all year long. Please do re-think your interpretation. You appear to be taking too literal a stance. It is the cloth points, not the credit toward them, that must wait until the boy gets his Wolf or Bear badge, and that's all. Please also reconsider building your entire program around advancement/awards (ie, canceling the fishing trip). If something is fun, safe, and worth doing, then do it! As for the camping business, be very careful. A lot of dens go "nod nod, wink wink, this isn't a den camp out because families are present." But if the only people who are invited are families from the den, if all you do is cub stuff, if everyone refers to it and/or advertises it as a den camp out, if the people putting it together and running the show are the den leaders, then you can technically call it whatever you want but it is still a den camp out and you're fooling no one. One of those "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..." sort of things. And ScoutNut is correct, the Guide to Safe Scouting specifically prohibits dens from camping AS DENS until they are webelos. And finally - you may find that having 5 den leaders becomes problematic. It is wonderful you have so many dedicated parents, but sometimes you'll end up with too many cooks in the kitchen. Since it is rare for packs to have an over-supply of willing volunteers, you may want to talk as a group about re-allocating your efforts to help the pack go. Maybe there are other positions some of you could help out with instead. Edited to add: Gunny, I get the basic sentiment behind what you've said, but on this one you're incorrect. What you're advocating as holding the line is a problem here because cub advancement regarding arrow points does not work as described. It is important to look carefully at what the actual policy is, before drawing a line and making a stand. (This message has been edited by lisabob)

Well now that's an interesting twist/ending to the situation, and also much easier to deal with (sigh of relief). Glad to hear that you have one less worry on your shoulders, ketchome.