le Voyageur

Thanks for the correction KS, but I'll update to "penchant for neo-facisism". Of a concern is a new term just emerging which is "generational war" meaning that this Administration's war on terrorism will be handed down to our children's children until the world is shaped in the image of the fascist doctrine of Pax Americana. Another concern, once upon a time vistors to this country were afforded the same protection under the Constitution as a citizen. What is now happening at airports is the death of the 4th Admendment. Tyranny is at the gate....

Well, maybe to a cow, the big M in the "Golden Arches" means Mass Murder. Mayhaps it's a start of a bovine revolution where that M now means Mad Cow...

So begins the mudslinging as we go fourth into another election year, where we silly sheeples all will be forced once again to choose between the evils of two lessers....aye, the left and their love of nanny government, or the conservative right and their peachment for facisism. For me, I just wish that both sides would simply go away, and leave the world alone...

I've elected to not really take a very active part in this exchange of ideals between those who are pro, and those who are anti gun...but,let me tell you about a "what if I had been there, could I had made a differance" event. Stationed in San Diego and living in San Ysidro back in the 80's, there was a McDonald's that I would stop in at the end of the workday. However, on 18 July 84, a bit of extra work that had to be done changed my schedule enough to keep me out of that restaurant. That was the day a crazy walked in and shot to death 21 souls...would I had met the same fate had I been there? That I really don't know, but I do know that that guy would of been facing someone armed with two 41 cal. Glocks, a 9mm Sig, plus a Colt 357 and two 380's at the ankles...plus enough combat experience to use that small arsenal to it's fullest...well, my advice to folks who live in this world today would be the same to those folks that I trained in Coronado...Be Prepared, there's no second place in combat...

In referance to the term " well regulated milita" well trained is not correct. During the Colonial era every community had milita units, and all lacked any sembalance of uniformity for training their members. A well regulated milita was simply one overseen by a Committe of Safety who either appointed the officers, or allowed the members to elect their own officers to lead them. Well trained wouldn't happen until Von Stuben at Valley Forge... On a side note that I found interesting, in 1665 settlers moving into the Carolinas were required to armed. From the colonial records..."all free men, and free women will be possesed of a good firelock (my note - 75 cal.), 10 pounds of powder, and 20 pounds of lead..." Interesting to note that women were required to be armed, hey...

Normally I'll eat anything eatable made out of sub atomic particles, with the exceptions of balutes and fish sauce... So, lets see, me 4 favorites Black Coffee - a truly great veggie drink Chocolate - another vegetable Pecan Pie - a religious experience, more so with a side of French Vinilla ice cream, plus the hot coffee Gapachcho - the colder the better Favorite recipe - open a bag of Pilot Biscuts, rip off the top of a cheese squeezer pack of Jalopeno cheese, spread on biscuts and enjoy. Warm water sipped from a canteen will heighten this dinning experience...

Welcome back, and happy new years to you. So you want to be a great SPL, hey...the secret is to be yourself, and have fun doing the job...

Maybe this in the long run will help ease the merger problems and conflicts that come about, when an older lodge has to meld into a newer one...

Never cared for the Beetles, FOG Well, with a Blue Moon rising, gotta head Downtown for some American Pie, or it'll be the Chain Gang for me. Anybody got fare for a Taxi, hey....

Returning back to the topic of the 2nd Admendment, I would like to offer a different perspective on the interpertation of this Admentment that NJCS had commented on. What I feel, is that the wording is confusing due to the fact that current interpertations are not reflective of the era that it was written in. Prior to the French supplying arms to the patriots about half way through the Rev. War, all members of milita units had to supply their own arms at their own expense. To be able to keep and bear arms insured that milita units would be capable of rising to their own defense be they along the Atlantic seaboard, or deep in the fronteer. Without men who had arms, Washington's task of raising an army would of been impossible. Knowing this, the Framers simply wanted to ensure the surival of their new nation by keeping it's citizens armed not only in the event of future wars, but because they also feared greatly a standing army....thus, "The right of the people to keep and bear arms..."

Well, instead of waiting around the Boob Tube waiting for the Ball to drop, I'll be headed out on the morrow to the Enchanted Forest, a 1, 000 year old grove of Cypress Trees to celebrate the passing of another year...till next year

SA, per your 2nd question, try this site ex parte Milligan http://www.geocities.com/tthor.geo/milligan.html I belive (but not sure)that Milligan still stands as good case law to date...

SA...I'll try and answer your second question a little later. However, I would like to put some finishing thoughts to your first question.... As I mentioned earlier the changing nature of warfare, especially in regard to unconventional warfare has not only made the Geneva Convention outdated, but continues also a constitutional problem yet to be resolve by the Supreme Court. First, the constitutional problem that I see is this, as it points directly to Article 1 Section 8 wherein only the Congress has the power to declare war. Additionally, the Constitution contains no express provision for "emergency" or crisis" situations. However, and I think that most of us can agree on this point, is that there are times when a President must step outside the checks and balances of the constitution during national emergencies, and take on dictatorial powers for the short term to provide Congress the necessary time to respond. Self preservation is the first law of any nation. Beginning with Truman, the Executive Branch now has a long tradition of operating without constitutional brakes as Congress has failed repeatedly to perform per the constituion, allowing national emergencies such as Korea, Vietnam, and this current muddle to stay protracted. This failure of duty has allowed the Executive Branch to usurp ever increasing powers outside of the the checks and balances of the constitution. With the advent of 9/11, we have a President who took advantage of this shift of power to take this nation into a war that the International community (the U.N.) was not prepared for in the way of treaties in regard to the way our adversaries had elected to engage and prosecute their war. Basically, the Bush adminstration had to deal with an unfolding problem that had these key points...(1)the privatization of violence (2)the resurgence of identity based violence (3)growth of violent groups not bound by geography (4)loss of monopoly of force by displaced ethnic groups (5)no separation of civilian and soldier. Thus emerged the Bush Doctrine for preemptive war, but what was lacking was a codified document that was current in regard to P.O.W.'s engaged in unconventional warfare. Therefore, U.S. adherence to international law concerning the treatment of P.O.W.'s is spotty at best. Hopefully, this revising is now on the anvil...

NJ has done an excellant job in covering what I would of said...besides, it appears you're looking for an argument per the tone of your postings...lets keep this thread civil since this is a chance to explore an important issue from many different perspectives

Scoutingagain....Great question, but for the now it'll have to go unanswered...here's why, armed conflict over the intervening years from WW II to this current conflict has changed, and the Geneva Convention has not. The principle problem is the growth of unconventional warfare which has brought fourth issues currently lacking answers...quoting Steven R. Ratner (professor of law U. of Texas School of Law)..."A common assumption in favor of updating the law of war is that the exsisting corpus of international humanitarian law is ill-equipped to address uses of force by and against terorist groups. While the laws of war provide detailed rules for interstat conflicts, conflicts between states and liberation movements, and conflicts between states and well organized insurgencies, they do not provide any guidance to those fighting in wars between states and terrorist movements..." Thus for the now, we are in a muddle with an outdated map....

I feel that I've got about another month or so of debating with myself as to where to go...either back to Blue Ridge, or someplace else like Tinnerman where I've never been. The other thought is none of the above, and either cycle across the U.S. or just spend a few months on the PCT starting on the John Muir section, and heading for Shasta....well, I'll give it another month before I commit...

I'm in agreement with FOG....however, what I now purpose is the Fred Burnham sqare knot for those of us who work in High Adventure

eisely Here's some rough thoughts on my reasoning. First, the detention and treatment of American citizens as ememy combatants may have already been decided by the Supreme Court in ex Parte Milligan (1865). As for the Detainees at Gitmo, we need to referance the Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of P.O.W.'s. In Part 1 Article 4 "Prisoners of war...are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: (1) Members of the armed forces...as wellas members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resisance movements, fulfil the followin conditions:(a) that being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; ©that of carrying arms openly;(d)that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess alleginace to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaing Power. (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany.... (5)...... (6) Inhabitants of a non occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war. Article 13 Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated....In particular, no prisoner of war maybe subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind....prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acs of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity. Article 14 Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour. Article 17 ....No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to unplesant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.." As you see, those being held at Gitmo do fall into the category of P.O.W.'s However, the rub is Article 17 which our government is circumventing by relabeling P.O.W.'s as detainees, and other smoke and mirrors semantics. For those in uniform, this practise by our government should be a worry as to their own treatment should they become P.O.W.'s... RobK, per your question, Yes, you are wrong on many counts. Sorry, I just don't have the time to give you a history lesson...maybe later when you've cooled down a bit, and able to think rationally.

Nothing....I asked me kin to find a name or two on an Angel Tree, and make Christmas happen for a child...

My interest in this part of the Bush's family history tends to lean into the "what if" category. That is, "what if" and in particular in referance to Prescott Bush, had the U.S. Government brought criminal proceedings against and prosecuted Prescott Bush for aiding and abetting the enemy, just as they would later do with Lindh. Makes for interesting speculations as to how this would of effected current history as it now unfolds...generally this would simply be the inane talk heard around a campfire (consider, would anyone dare write a book about the "Court Marshall of George Armstrong Custer", hey). Trail Pounder - you have me chuckling. Me, Liberal Left...I make Ann Ryand look like a conservative...

As I'm a bit of a historian, lets shift away from the law concerning the status of P.O.W.'s, enemy combatants and etc to consider and think about this topic in a different light... First, let's roll back the clock to the year 2002, to the time of the John Walker Lindh case (the American Taliban captured in Afghanistan). After his capture (early December), he was held at Camp Rhino in a large metal cargo container. There were no light, heat source or insulation. He was kept in these conditions for three days, with mimimal food, medical attention and with his hands and feet handcuffed in such a way that his forearms were forced together and fully extended-making it impossible for him to sleep. During later interagations Lindh would ask for a lawyer, this was denied being told by an FBI agent that none was available. He was not told that his parents had retained a lawyer for him who was ready and willing to see him in Afghanistan. The government had also prevented the Red Cross from delivering a note that Lindh's parents went to him on or about December 3, stating they had retained a lawyer. After a Federal Grand Jury returned a 10 count indictment against Lindh, US Attorney General John Ashcroft, disregarding Justice Department rules barring statements that might influence the outcome of a trial began trying the case in the media....Ashcroft states, "Americans who love their country do not dedicate themselves to killing Americans", and further implied that Lindh was a key operative in AL Qaeda's operations....Lindh is now serving a very lengthy prison term. Now, lets roll the clock back to 1942, the US has been in the war against the Axis powers for about 8 months, and filling up internment camps with American citizens of Japaneses ancestery. However, the real story that is happening, and is being buried very quickly is about the current President's grandfather Prescott Bush (elected U.S. Senator, 1952). The Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S. enterprises which operated out of a suite of offices at 39 Broadway (NYC) under the supervision of Prescott Bush was an enterprise that bankrolled the Nazi government.... New York Herald-Tribune, 30 July 1942, The banner headline reads, "Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank." "The bank" founded in 1924 by W.Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen controled enterprises and assest, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury and war bonds. The company's activities were admistered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lieense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director."[John Buchanan, The New Hamphire Gazette, Vol 248, No. 1, Oct. 10, 2003] "On Oct. 20, 1942, under authority of the Tading with the Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley. In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the first of the Bush-Hariman-managed Thyssen entites, Hamburg-American Line.....Eight days after the seizure of UBS invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to take contro of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssene business - Holland-American Tradin Corp....and Seamless Steel Equpment Corp Silesian-Ameerican Corporation, which allegedly profited from slave labor at Auschwitz via partnership with I.G. Farben, Hitler's third major industrial patron and partner in the infrastructure of the Third Reich"[ibid] After the seizures of the various businesses, the U.S. government quietly settled with Bush, Harriman and others after the war. Bush and Harriman each received 1.5 million in cash as compensation for their seized business assets... John Lindh gets a prison cell, and Prescott Bush 1.5 million and later elected into the Senate. Kinda fascinating, hey...

As I see it, those of us adults who serve on campstaffs should be the first line of defense when it comes to safety. Being entrusted with someone's son is an awesome responsiblity that must not be takened lightly. Also, it is much easier for an older adult to challenge the authority of both the Camp Director and the Program Director when it comes to questionable activities where safety is starting to slide. Three years ago I shut down a C.O.P.E. course that should of been shut down at least two years prior to my taking the job. That course is still shut down to day...needless to say, this Council lucked out without getting anyone hurt. For this incident that resulted in the loss of a young life, all I can do is extend my heartfelt sorrow to this family. As to Shooting Sports Directors, Program Directors still using signalling cannons (thunder mugs), I strongly suggest using preloaded cartridges with the correct measure of powder, and never allow a scout to load directly from the can....

GWB's war on terrorism will, in the future be looked back on by historians as a dark day in American history where a President trashed not only the Consitution for political gain, but deliberately jeopardize the safety, and well being of every member in uniform by violating international treaties on the treatment of POW's. Additionally, this period will also reflect Congress's inability and/or lack of backbone to make a formal declaration of war to legitamize GWB's crusade. Until there is a formal declaration of war by Congress then the Detainee's at Gitmo cannot be considered enemy combants nor POWs, but simply kidnapped foreign nationals who were captured while defending their homeland from an aggressor nation... Until this administration learns to operate within consitutional boundries, then the terrorist have won the war, and we are no longer safe from the aggresions of our own government...

Hitting the Bug Juice again OGE??

FOG me laddie, me gift to ye be but attached to a hart of gold...aye, I did me best to leave ya in stitches... Now back to me bumbling, since me's gift for the wife is wee small, I'll be a using a fresh Ben Franklin for the wrapping.. :)