Kudu

And if it's done by Patrols without sound youth leadership and support in place, it isn't Scouting either. It's a bullied gang, da Lord of the Flies, or wreckless endangerment. I agree. The Patrol Method depends on a disciplined environment, and Scouting literature in general does not address that issue very well. My best year ever was when Brian, our high school football hero Eagle Scout, volunteered to be Troop Guide for his senior year. It was obvious that the sixth-grade New Scout Patrol (NSP)--which he helped me recruit-- admired him greatly. Everyone in the school (even the sixth-graders) knew his name. Perhaps they were surprised that he would even talk to them, let alone take an interest in their development week after week, campout after campout. The Patrol Method worked effortlessly that year, and I felt like some kind of genius Scoutmaster :-) A "Webelos 3" Troop like Scouter4321 describes does not have that kind of Junior Leadership from which to draw, but a no-nonsense adult who can demand respect from a distance can certainly provide the NSP "Patrol Method in two-weeks" environment that SueM describes. All this "Leadership Development" abstract leadership skills stuff sometimes makes the Patrol Method sound more complicated than it really is. Baden-Powell's Patrol System is really just playing army without the toy guns :-/ Eleven-year-olds need help in checking off personal and group equipment & food lists before the campout, and learning how to set up their tents after they get there. But usually the fat kid already knows how to cook, and if you are warm and dry and the food is good, what else do you really need for a great weekend? Just keep the Patrols physically separated as much as possible. Kudu

I look at the patrol method more as teaching the patrol leader to lead. Making the patrol leader responsible for: keeping his patrol informed, on track, and watching out for them, making sure that the PLC has activities planned to help with his patrols advancements and to make sure his patrol is having fun. Teaching the patrol leader to interact with the SPL ASPL and other PL. I believe that you are thinking of "Leadership Development." Most of these abstract leadership skills were a subset of the Patrol Method until Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting were "modernized" in the early 1970s. At that time "Boy Leadership" was removed from what Traditional Scouters consider to be its proper position as a subset of the Patrol Method and became a separate method called "Leadership Development." btw, ASPLs should not be in the chain of command over Patrol Leaders. For an outline history of the Methods of Scouting, see: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods Kudu

Patrol Method is last I think SueM's experience is closer to the truth: "These boys began functioning as a patrol within 2 weeks time and after several months of watching what they were doing, the older boys started to try to imitate what they were seeing!" 11 and 12 year-olds can definitely begin to function as a Patrol within two weeks of joining Scouts if the Patrols are physically separated from each other during campouts, and somebody makes sure that the Patrol Quartermaster checks off equipment lists and food lists before every campout. Remember that Baden-Powell observed that all over the world, boys tend to organize themselves in small patrol-sized groups and a natural leader always emerges, regardless of the culture to which they belong. Patrols are natural, they are probably genetic. This time of year it takes a lot longer in snow-country if the Troop camps in cabins and the adults try to make things more "efficient" by using the "troop method" :-) Ideals and Personal Growth are all well and good, but if it isn't done by Patrols, it isn't Scouting. The Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method! --Roland Phillips. Kudu

A few years ago, when my District Commissioner asked me if I was interested in being Scoutmaster of his son's Troop, I asked their acting Scoutmaster why he was quitting. He wrote me a list of 86 reasons, which can be found at: http://inquiry.net/adult/burnout.htm For a while it was the #1 page (out of 2,280) on my Website in drawing both positive and negative feedback Emails. I took it off the navigational structure of The Inquiry Net when our local Council got upset because it mentioned the Council by name, and it out ranked their official Site on Google searches of the Council name :-/ On my "To Do List" is the idea of linking each of the 86 points to Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt Patrol Method pointers on how to solve each of these problems. In the meantime, if you want to know why adults quit, I think this subjective raw data is a pretty good conversation starter. Kudu

SR540Beaver writes: You could go to a council property as a troop and drop patrols in different campsites as far away from each other as possible. ozemu writes: Troop camps are always done as separate Patrols all in the one rough area. Distance from the adult camp depends on space available and Scouts abilities. Two excellent posts appear in the Adult-Free Campouts thread that should be read by all Scouters, even those who would never in their wildest dreams allow Scouts to camp without adult supervision. Physically separating Patrols is the answer to the perennial question of how to teach the Patrol Method to both Scouts and adults! Another resource is William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." This is a six month Patrol Leader Training (PLT) course which is different from Junior Leader Training (JLT) in that it teaches Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders, rather than teaching them abstract managerial skills. The Green Bar Patrol is a training Patrol in which the Scoutmaster is Patrol Leader, and the Patrol Leaders are Patrol members. The Patrol meets once a month for six months and teaches Patrol Leaders by actually doing everything from making a Patrol Flag and conducting a Patrol Meeting, to planning and taking a Patrol Hike and a Patrol Campout. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar See also the Gilwell PLT training course: http://inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell Kudu

Even a pantheist who happened to be a materialist would meet this requirement if he admitted that "no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to [God/the world]...The materialist pantheist can follow this, as could the philosopher Compte, who applied the title "God" to humanity. Yeah, I find that atheist Scouts can usually accept Carl Sagan's quotation of Einstein's paraphrase of Spinoza's pantheistic definition of God as the sum total of all the natural laws in the universe. Likewise Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell characterizes Baden-Powell and his famous father as pantheists, although the later might have taken exception to that. For a list of references to "pantheism" in Professor Baden Powell's The Order of Nature, (which B-P pronounced 'the most remarkable book he had ever read') see: http://inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm Kudu

I copied the statement from the BSA website, OGE, I'm agnostic about finding truth on the BSA website. The version I have of the BSA's DRP (as it appears in the semi-secret BSA charter & bylaws) is more sinister. It requires "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary for the best type of citizenship...." I wonder how many people realize they are agreeing to that when they sign up :-/ Was the DRP reworded? Kudu See: http://inquiry.net/adult/uua/bsa_drp.htm

Does that preclude him from being able to remain a Scout? He isn't done forming his opinions, he is just exploring....and as he put it "being an agnostic is cool". Michelle, It really depends on the adults in your unit. Obviously your nephew's experiences with religion within the BSA program have so far all been positive. But you might want to caution him that when he applies such a label to himself, he is wearing an "attitude detector" that works in much the same way as "cool" unconventional haircuts, clothing, or piercings. "Agnostic" is a trigger word in the BSA, and if he uses it in front a fundamentalist he may see the smiling encouragement he is accustomed to disappear. His belief "in something higher than me, I'm just not sure what that is," would eventually be accepted, but the perceived injustice of having to justify his religious beliefs to someone who is "uncool" about religion may radicalize him: force him into defending a position before he is done exploring. Kudu My guard stood hard when abstract threats too noble to neglect deceived me into thinking I had something to protect. "Good" and "bad," I defined these terms no doubt quite clear somehow. Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

Sure, Scouting is a game. But I hope we never forget it is a game with a purpose. The correct quotation is: "A realization that to the boys Scouting is a gameto you, a game with a purpose: Character building and Citizenship training." It is one of the "Ten Essentials of Scoutmastership" from Hillcourt's Handbook for Scoutmasters (emphasis in the original). See: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/hillcourt/scoutmastership.htm Our actions should result in a boys happiness through his formative years: "A happy boy is a good boy, a good boy is a good citizen." Sure, to us Scouting is a game with a purpose. But I hope we never forget that to the boys Scouting is a game. Kudu

In the end the boy will choose to live the Scout Oath and Law and stay with Scouting, or he will choose to leave. Either way, the choice is his alone. But choose he must. You should have the courage of your convictions and call forcing a Scout to make such a false "decision" what it is: kicking him out. You didn't answer my question, either. How long do you give this Scout to make this "choice"? Five Minutes? A Fortnight? Five months, 30 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds? Bears repeating: "It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law." This statement is simply not true. The BSA's current policies are shaped by religious fundamentalists, and fundamentalism is always based on the practice of picking and choosing. Christian fundamentalists, for example, tend to quote St. Paul and the Old Testament, but ignore the central point of Jesus's message of love and forgiveness as recorded by His own chosen disciples. Likewise, Scouting fundamentalists tend to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath and Law while ignoring the central point of Baden-Powell and William Hillcourt's message that Scouting is a game. To give you the benefit of the doubt, FScouter, if you do not allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law, then what do you do when a self-described "hydrophobic" boy thinks the swimming requirements force the water upon him? What to do, indeed! If the "mission" of this organization is to help boys make ethical choices, then you must help him understand that his choice cannot violate the "Brave" Scout Law that he has agreed to live by. That would not be ethical. So how long do you give him to make his "choice" to stay with Scouting or leave? Five minutes? A fortnight? Do you kick out Scouts if they merely admit that they have "violated" the "Brave" Scout Law, or do you wait for them to actually cry? The later is proof positive that the Scout is also "violating" the "Cheerful" Scout Law, so this Scout is clearly not making "ethical choices," a two-fold disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting. How about "A Scout is Clean"? There is no wiggle room here! Either a Scout is clean or he is not. Or do you compromise the BSA's "mission" by making some false distinction between a messy tent and muddy hiking boots? Do you send Scouts home immediately for failing a tent inspection, or do you have a "three strikes" policy? How about muddy boots? Do you have a "three steps" policy? If the mission of this organization is to help boys make ethical choices, then you must help them understand that their choices cannot violate the "Clean" Scout Law that they have agreed to live by. That would not be ethical. So how long do you give an unclean Scout to make his "choice" to stay with Scouting or leave? Five minutes? A fortnight? Scouting is game. Either you get it, or you don't. Kudu

I read through the link you provided and fail to see what this had to do with a Lad who is an agnostic? It details how Scouting can give spiritual direction to boys through indirect means. Hint: Scouting is a game! I agree with the BSA when it states: "It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law." Not to nitpick, but I see two problems with that: 1) It is a great disservice to five million youth and adult members to assert that they all agree with the BSA's fundamentalist interpretation of the Scout Oath. I know for a fact that only 4,999,999 members feel "disserviced." 2) Like all fundamentalists, they are the ones who are guilty of "pick and choose." In this case they concentrate on "Duty to God" while ignoring "I promise to do my best." A Scout who looks at the short-comings of religion objectively is living up to his promise and has taken the first steps of a great journey. These are the Scouts who often come back years later as members of the clergy. I have read that Baden Powell wasn't happy with the BSA Oath and Law -But I don't remember ever reading that he was a member of the BSA? I'm sure you will clear that question up for me. I would be happy to do that. I believe that the best course of action is to help establish an alternative Scouting movement based on Baden-Powell's brand of Scouting. However, I do support those who disagree with the BSA's short-sighted policies, but refuse to abandon it to mean-spirited people. If you want to "work for change from within," then the best models of Scouting are those proposed by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt and Robert Baden-Powell. Not that it really matters, we belong to the BSA and the question was:Does BSA require? Like it or not the answer is that the BSA does require. Some people might be unhappy with the answer but that's what it is. Ah, but those who would have us do evil usually avoid being very specific, for fear of being quoted. The rules and regulations of the BSA are not widely distributed, but if you look closely I bet they do not really come out and say exactly what they "require" when it comes to detailing the dirty deed of kicking children out of Scouting. Does the BSA regulation specify that an open-minded boy must be forced off the sponsoring institution's property within five minutes? Or is it an hour? A day? A week? A fortnight? "Fortnight" sounds real British, like something that Baden-Powell might have said. Is that the correct answer? A fortnight? I have never met an "agnostic" Scout, but over the years eight Scouts (including three Senior Patrol Leaders) have told me that they are "atheist." All of them changed their minds and decided that they believed in God within six months. The quickest (one of the SPLs), was about 20 minutes :-) You and FScouter are the experts here, so is the object to kick them out before they change their minds? If so, then 19 minutes would have excluded all of them, but is 19 minutes too long? On the other hand, if the objective is to kick out only the most stubborn atheist, then the correct answer for my Troop would have been five months, 30 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds--just a second before he moved on to other things. Is that the correct answer? All things considered, skeptical boys would rather play dodge ball. "Everything on two legs that calls itself a boy has God in him, although he may--through the artificial environment of modern civilization--be the most arrant little thief, liar, and filth-monger unhung. Our job is to give him a chance." -- Lord Robert Baden-Powell I wonder how many of the BSA's precious regulations that statement violates! Kudu (This message has been edited by Kudu)(This message has been edited by Kudu)

That was an unkind and un-Scoutlike slam against Eamonn. Eamonn asked "Isn't it the same with this Lad?" and I replied that it was. If Eamonn is offended by my answer, then I am sorry that he asked the question and that I lacked skill writing my answer. However, the practice of kicking children out of Scouting because they are open-minded about the existence of God is far more unkind and un-Scoutlike, isn't it? What would Baden-Powell have to say about that? While B-P was just a young boy growing up, officials of the state church "publicly suggested that [his father] had died without the consolation of religious faith" because of the religious progressivism advanced in his book The Order of Nature and subsequent essays. Likewise, B-P was threatened with the destruction of the Scouting Movement as a national institution when he incorporated his father's ideas into his theories of "Practical Christianity" and the "Religion of the Deep Woods." While B-P would have been more diplomatic, he understood the nature of religious fundamentalism. See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm Rather than linking us to your personal website with every post, how about supporting your comments about Scouting with a links to BSA resources instead?? Obviously because I believe that Scouting should be based on Baden-Powell. "Suffer ye the little children, and forbid them not to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." The meaning of Matthew 19:13 & 14 is that the nature of children is the nature of the kingdom of heaven itself. So when you turn your back on children, you turn your back on God. If we die without asking forgiveness for this, will God take for an excuse that we turned our backs on ("forbid") children open-minded about His existence because of what we read in the BSA resources? That we were "just following orders"? I think not. Kudu

But if OJ had stood firm in wanting to become a Methodist, I would have supported him and while I might not have liked him becoming a Methodist, the choice would have been his. Isn't it the same with this Lad? Yes, exactly the same. Obviously you missed a great opportunity to run your home like your Scout Troop and kick him out of the family because of his developing beliefs. You could have inspired him to become a life-long Methodist! We deliver the program to Boys who accept the Scout Law and Oath, if they can't accept it or understand it they need help which most of us are not trained to give. It only seems difficult when you replace the indirect methods of Scouting with fundamentalism. If the personal example of the Scoutmaster is religious intolerance, then he teaches that religion is intolerance. B-P had a five-fold approach for such situations: (a) Personal example of the Scoutmaster. (b) Nature study. © Good turns. (d) Missioner service [care of the sick]. (e) Retention of the older boy. See: http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/scoutmastership/service.htm#no_religion Kudu

So if we are going to allow Agnostic Scouts, how should we re-word the Scout Oath? How about "I promise do my best"? All "agnostic" means is open minded. WWJD? That is the whole point, isn't it? If we can't turn our other cheek to an "open minded" teenager, what good is our religion? Kudu

The spirituality of both Baden-Powell and his famous cleric father were described as "pantheistic." A hundred years later, most skeptical Scouts find the pantheistic definition of God as "the sum total of all the natural laws in the universe" acceptable. Ed's idea of a moment of silence is probably the best idea. You might also have him google "agnostic prayer" and find something he can believe in. Here are a couple: The Agnostic's Prayer God, if you are, Forgive me. God, if you are not, Be. (written by Bill Lamb while in high school) Another entitled 'Agnostic's Prayer' O God, if there is a god, save my soul, if I have a soul. - Ernest Renan John Gunther in Death Be Not Proud offers this agnostic prayer: Almighty God, forgive me for my agnosticism for I will try to keep a gentle, not cynical, nor a bad influence. And, oh, if thou art truly in the heavens, accept my gratitude for all thy gifts and I shall try to fight the good fight. Amen. Evidently the following Agnostic's Prayer is famous in science fiction circles: Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen. Roger Zelazny, Creatures of Light and Darkness, 1969

William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's quick meeting hints can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/troop/hints.htm His detailed discussion of how to run Troop meetings (this is a treasure-trove of ideas), can be found at: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/troop/index.htm

Such discussions usually revolve around the assumption that Scout Spirit should be evaluated by the adults. I take the opposite approach, using the requirement as an opportunity for the Scout to recognize the Scouting ideals already reflected in his own behavior. For advancement, each Scout fills out a "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" and brings it to our Scoutmaster Conference. Basically it is a work sheet with the definition of each of the BSA Scout Laws, and space for the Scout to write an example of his own behavior. For instance: 1. A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him. I was TRUSTWORTHY when I______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________________ See: http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit A discussion of the process can be found at: http://www.kudu.net/ideals/spirit/directions.htm Baden-Powell's practice was for the Scoutmaster to discuss with a candidate for the Second Class and First Class Awards, his understanding of Scout Law. This is Scouting as a game that uses indirect methods to reach its Aim. I save the completed Scavenger Hunts for the next Court of Honor, when we pick out the best written response to each to the Scout Laws. That Scout lights the candle representing that particular Scout Law in the candle-lighting ceremony opening, and explains to the audience in one sentence how his behavior reflects that Scout Law. This is much better than having Scouts read or memorize some definition of the Scout Laws. I prefer examples from campouts, which serve as a public relations reminder to the parents that time spent camping is an important investment in character-building. See our COH Scout Spirit Candle Ceremony script at: http://www.inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/candlelight.htm Kudu

What is a Scouter? I would suggest that the attributes of Scouters philosophical enough to engage in such discussions should include a desire to read one of William Hillcourt's pre-1970s BSA Scoutmaster's Handbooks (the 3rd edition is more than a thousand pages), and Tim Jeal's biography, Baden-Powell, so as to see what the nature of "Scouting" is beyond the BSA's current corporate brand. If you are interested in attending a Traditional Wood Badge course (that is Wood Badge not based on the latest corporate leadership theory), look for Baden-Powell Scouting courses in 2006. They are usually titled "Wood Beads" so as to avoid copyright infringement, and are based on Baden-Powell's Wood Badge course. There is talk of a 3-day practical (one bead) course (Fri-Sun) at Ben Walker's Scout Academy sometime in the spring of 2006. This would be Rover Wood Badge. You might contact the Scout Academy for information: http://www.boyscoutacademy.com/ Rovers is advancement-based Scouting beyond age 17-18. Rover Scouts from the Baden Powell Scouts of Ireland visited the Scout Academy in 2004, see: http://www.badenpowellscoutsireland.com/usa.htm Kudu

9. Etc, etc, ad infinitum. Did I leave any out? Yeah, the most obvious: If anyone at BSA understood the Uniform Method, the BSA Uniform would be made for the outdoors, where ideally all Scouting takes place. You can get BDU's at a military surplus store. They make colors other than camo. I have a pair of olive green BDU's and they wear like iron. For close-up comparison photos of the stitching in the BSA pants and BDU pants (as well as olive-drab nylon zip-off pants), see: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm "Ideally, no Troop should have a single indoor meeting--all its activities should be outdoors! "Ideally, we say--for Scouting is a movement of the out-of-doors, teaching boys citizenship through woodcraft. Boys join Scouting to have fun under the open sky, not to be cooped up in a troop room [William Hillcourt, Scoutmaster's Handbook, 5th Edition, page 125]. "So Baden-Powell set out to design a uniform of a character applicable to all phases of Scouting. "The design which emerged--with the broad brimmed hat, the shirt rather than a coat, the loose shorts rather than tight fitting pants, the stockings, the shoes rather than high boots--was made for comfort, for greater freedom of action, and for health. The khaki color was decided upon because it blends with the leaves of the forests, the mountains, the fields. "Immediately it started its conquest of the world. It came to America with the Movement. But we did not accept it unconditionally. The fact that it had been accepted in England, in India, and Africa was not enough. So we experimented with the uniform design, tested it in the north and the south, in the east, and the west. It stood the test, and since then millions of American boys have expressed their approval of it: 'The Scout Uniform is the one for us!' [Hillcourt, Handbook for Scoutmasters, 3rd Edition, page 286]" Kudu

Has it been a month already?

New Scoutmasters can learn more about the Patrol Method by reading William Hillcourt's 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters. This two volume masterpiece by the man who brought the Patrol Method to the BSA from Denmark is a thousand pages longer than the current Scoutmaster Handbook, counting all of the current edition's pictures, blank pages and even the index! I finally got around to reading the whole thing by adding it to my Wood Badge ticket. Even though some of the information is dated, you will find that every page contains at least one valuable "new" idea! Used copies can be found at the following URL, to find the third edition, look for copies that indicate volume 1 or 2 in the description: http://used.addall.com/Used/ When you read in Internet forums that the "job" of the Scoutmaster is to allow Scouts the absolute right to make bad choices, no matter what the cost is to the Troop and to the other seven Methods, remember always that the official rules of the BSA usually appear in secondary BSA publications in bold print. The BSA certainly does not specify how Troop elections are to be run, nor have I seen anything in bold print that overrides anything written by Hillcourt. There is certainly no rule prohibiting Scoutmasters from approving PL and SPL candidates as they do candidates for Order of the Arrow: "To become eligible for election, a Boy Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of his unit leader prior to the election." Regarding the topic of this discussion, Hillcourt takes the middle road that was more common in the Boy Scouts of America when the Methods of Scouting included "The Scout Way (1. A Game, NOT a Science):" How to Select Patrol Leaders "The Question then arises: "Should the Patrol Leader be elected by the Patrol or selected by the Scoutmaster?" The answer is an emphatic--and apparently paradoxical--"Yes!" As a matter of fact, he should be either elected by the Patrol or selected by the Scoutmaster, or maybe preferably both--according to the Troop's age and its peculiarities. "Since the Scoutmaster has the ultimate responsibility, he naturally should decide upon the method to be followed. It is obvious that under different conditions it may be necessary to use different methods. A new Scoutmaster starting out with new boys with no previous Scout experience might want to select the leader himself, while a Scoutmaster, himself a Scout and with several years' work with boys to his credit, because of this experience or viewpoint, would follow an entirely different course. "Under the ideal Patrol Method, the Patrol Leader is selected by the expressed wishes of the members of the Patrol he is to lead. There is seldom any danger that the boys will choose the wrong boy for their leader. If they have had a chance to come to know each other through association in the Troop, their choice is usually the boy peculiarly fitted to their needs. The chosen leader may not always be the one the Scoutmaster might have most preferred, but the wise Scoutmaster should not override the Patrol's choice, except in a serious emergency, in which case he exercises his power of veto. It may be preferable to let the Patrol suffer [during the trial period before the Patrol Leader is officially sworn in] for a short while, the handicap of an unwisely chosen leader and thus learn by its own mistakes [Handbook for Scoutmasters 3rd Edition, pages 182-183]." By the way, Baden-Powell was not above appointing scoundrels: One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet be needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction ["Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918]. Kudu

I used external frame packs for 30 years but ten years ago decided to switch to internal after reading in The Complete Walker that Colin Fletcher had switched. The most interesting part of his account was that he (perhaps the most famous backpacking author in the world) relied on the expertise of a knowledgeable salesperson for advice in selecting and fitting the internal pack to his body. I still have four external packs that I loan out to Scouts. For ten years I have intended to use one of my external packs for old-times sake, but have never gotten around to it. As I get older, I like the balance of my internal pack. The internal-frame packs generally consist of a single large pocket, accessible from the top, while the external-frame packs generally have numerous pockets, accessible from the top, sides, and rear of the pack My internal pack is also accessible from the top, sides, and rear of the pack. It also has a zippered partition that can be used to divide the bottom 1/3 of the pack from the top. I don't use it, but whether or not you engage this partition, the bottom of the pack can be accessed from the back through a zipper. I carry my group first aid kit in this area. Most internal packs also have an additional top pocket that can be accessed without opening the main pack. I also purchased optional side pockets, and front pockets that attach to the front of the shoulder straps. The side pockets are large enough to fit two 1-quart bottles of white gas plus a couple of Whisper-Lite stoves in one outside pocket, and a quart of water plus my mess kit, etc. in the other. They are designed not interfere with your elbows as you hike. The small front pockets seemed like a great idea for holding a compass, knife, notebook, camera, etc. because they are easily accessible while walking. I don't really use them however, because once you make camp, you end up removing these things from the pockets. I prefer a fishing or backpacking vest for these things plus my "ten essentials." A vest can be worn while hiking if you arrange the pockets to fit over the waist belt and around the shoulder harness. This also means that the heaviest objects in the pack tend to migrate downward over the miles. This hasn't been my experience. Internal packs have a bunch of compression straps that are all tightened before you start hiking. This turns the contents of the pack into the "frame" of the pack, so the contents are pretty tightly compressed together. By the way, this is probably the reason for the optional zippered partition, so that the heaviest objects are placed at the bottom of the upper partition, one-third from the bottom, creating the best balance. Kudu

pargolf44067 writes: Any thoughts? If you want to follow the BSA's methods, you can't do better than the thoughts of William Hillcourt, who brought the "Patrol Method" to the BSA from Denmark. In this BSA model the SPL is selected by the PLC, but Hillcourt's advice on electing Patrol Leaders is relevant to this discussion. The first paragraph has always worked for me: The Scoutmaster's Part "If a very definitely unfortunate selection seems imminent to the Scoutmaster, through his more mature knowledge of the Scout in question, he may decide to call the Patrol together and give it a talk on the necessary qualifications of a Patrol Leader. This talk may even be so designed as to narrow the choice to the boy the Scoutmaster would like to see chosen. Almost invariably the boys will follow suggestions thus diplomatically given--and will feel that they, after all, did the choosing. "A modified election scheme is the method by which two or three boys in each Patrol are nominated by the Scoutmaster or the Troop Leaders' Council ["PLC"] and one is elected by a vote of the Patrol. "In some Patrols every boy writes out the names of the fellows he thinks are the three best leaders in his group. The results are not made known directly to the Scouts but practically every boy in the Patrol has some kind of rating placed upon him as a leader. At the Troop Leaders' Council meeting, with all the senior and junior leaders present, the ratings are gone over and it is decided just who will be the best leader for the group. In this way both Scouters and Scouts have a share in deciding who the Patrol Leaders shall be and the possibility of embarrassing situations is eliminated. "In all instances, the appointment of the Patrol Leader should not immediately follow his election or selection. It should be definitely understood that he has to prove his mettle before the appointment is forthcoming. For this reason it is advisable to institute what might be called a "period of probation" during which the Scout is given the chance to prove that he is worthy of the high office of Patrol Leader. This period may be of one month or six weeks' duration, and should seldom be longer [Handbook for Scoutmaster, 3rd Edition, pages 184-186]." Kudu

I don't know why this is here, but I come to the Patrol Method forum to get away from such ranting. There is a place for it of this forum, which allows the rest of us to talk real scouting. Patrol Method discussions is actually a place where problems do get solved. Not a place to vent on the personal perceptions of life. The term "rant" is an emotional term used to dismiss points of view to which we object and/or don't understand. Assertions such as the "rest of us to talk real scouting," and "actually a place where problems do get solved," are merely a reflection of your own "personal perceptions of life." In most of the world, appointing the SPL is "real Scouting," and "solves actual problems." Troop elections or Scoutmaster appointments are just two different ways of playing the game of Scouting. Each way has advantages and drawbacks. Well good news Kudu, there is such a program and I know it is growing. Do a search for Baden Powell scouts; I think that is what it is call, and you will find just what you are looking for. It looks like an excellent program :-) http://www.1sttarrantbpscouts.org/Activities.html Kudu

In my Council, a "Camporee" is limited to all of the Troops within a district, and a "Camperall" includes all of the Troops in the whole Council. Kudu