Kudu

Does anyone know the history of the BSA Mission and Vision Statements? Thanks. Kudu

I'm with BobWhite on this one: 1) An extra 10 minutes after the meeting is the Scoutmaster's call, the Committee should not be involved in that kind of decision. 2) If you are using the Patrol Method, the Patrol Leaders should be included in the meeting. 3) Two Deep Leadership applies to outings, the "Rule of Three" applies to meetings. That being said, no matter how highly you speak of the other leaders they lack loyalty and dedication if they would actually vote against the Scoutmaster meeting with the SPL for ten minutes at 8:30. In fact they sound trivial, so you hanging around to provide two-deep leadership might be a good idea for reasons other than BSA policy. Likewise, if the Patrol Leaders are the talentless winners of a popularity contest and including them in a ten minute meeting will only add to opposition to an extra ten minutes after the meeting, then it might be better to stick with the original Troop Method idea: a ten minute meeting at 8:30 between the SM and SPL with you in the general area. Kudu

"I would like to know what he means by Cub Scouts have ruined Boy Scouts!" Baden-Powell warned against using the word "Scouts" for Wolf Cubs (or Girl Guides). Boys associate the word with scissors and paste Den mommy baby stuff, and parents associate the word with pleading for more parental involvement. My last Troop did not have a "feeder Pack" so all of that worked to my advantage when recruiting in the public schools, once I understood why boys drop out of Cubs and why parents didn't return my phone mail. Writer is looking for positive ideas and stories for his book so we should spin off all of the other topics if anyone wants to discuss them further. I for one would like to hear more from David Scott about the first Scoutmaster in the United States Kudu

rjscout writes: "I do remember freezing my rear off the one winter camping I did in boy scouts MANY years ago." As you move around during the day, your muscle activity keeps you warm. When you slide into your sleeping bag in damp clothing, most of this muscle activity stops but the sweat caught in your damp clothing continues to evaporate and cool your skin. "I was wondering about putting the 'damp' clothes at the bottom of the sleeping bag. Wouldn't this transfer the dampness into the sleeping bag?" The dampness will evaporate through the sleeping bag. In really cold weather you will find a patch of frost on the top of the sleeping bag over the now dry and warm clothing. Simply brush off the frost. If you have ever made the mistake of covering the top of your sleeping bag with a waterproof tarp and woken up in the morning in a soaking wet bag, then you know that the bag is designed to transfer a great deal of evaporated sweat through evaporation! Kudu

For the benefit of Padilan and any other Scouts who may be reading, "Eagledad" is using a technique called an ad hominem attack. The basic idea is to keep people from thinking about the issues by making fun of someone. This is an important thing to know about because it happens all of the time. For instance the incident that sparked this thread was ad hominem in its purest form: The boy against me was a boy who joined the troop two months ago, only went to one campout, and his speech was "Vote for me 'cause I'm taller then Andrew." Eagledad's post uses the same technique, although Andrew's opponent was probably in a nicer mood Eagledad writes: "I feel like it must be the childrens day out today." The idea here is to insult an adult by comparing him to younger people. As Stosh points out, this is a rather odd choice of put-down in a forum about "boy-led" programs. "We cant just read a few words that might make us think and carry on the discussion; we have to plow through venting intended to offend anyone with a different approach" This is an example of an ad hominem subset called "projection." Projection is when someone accuses you of something that they are secretly guilty of themselves. For instance, "Eagledad" could have chosen my examination of leadership in Baden-Powell's Patrol System as a point to debate, but instead he chose to "vent" and "offend" someone who advocates a "different approach." An awareness of "projection" can be a lot of fun if you discover it while you are still in high school because very often when another adolescent boy accuses you of some nasty practice, it is actually something that he hates himself for doing, or at least hates himself for thinking about way too often! "or even worse, just isnt happy with life in general this week" and "So you had a bad week did ya?" When an odd accusation like this comes at you from out of nowhere, it almost always "projection." The mature thing to do is to realize that poor Barry Eagledad is having a very rough week and needs our sympathy. "your attacks and unproven philosophical blather." Here is yet another good example of ad hominem "projection." Barry's post is obviously a personal "attack," and since it does not refer to anything specific it is itself an example of "philosophical blather." As a side note, I do not agree that using Patrols as mills to teach business theory is any kind of virtue just because it is "proven". Scouting is a game, or at least it was before the "Scout Way Method" ("Scouting is a Game, NOT a Science") was removed from the Methods of Scouting in 1972 to make room for its polar opposite, the new "scientific" Leadership Development Method. "condescending baggage" and "untested philosophical chat" OK Scouts, by now you can probably recognize ad hominem attacks all by yourself. "and already have t-shirts that say 'been there and done that'." Just to indulge in some ad hominem myself: Guys who wear "Been There, Done That!" T-shirts are always complete idiots! Kudu

My short answer is "A Scout is Helpful." Help other people at all times without dwelling on how unfair life is. You will actually feel happy if you do the right thing! In a perfect world, everyone would soon realize that you are a natural leader and vote for you in the next election. But as you have discovered, people do not vote in their own best interests, they always vote for the most amusing personality (see "Bill Clinton" and "George W. Bush"). If you are interested in the "big picture," my long answer is that your experience is the natural result of the fact that the BSA does not follow the Scouting program as it was designed by Lord Baden-Powell (the inventor of Scouting). Baden-Powell's vision of Scouting is based on his observation (as a military man interested in military patrols) that boys tend to hang out in small gangs and a natural leader always emerges. Since boys in England and the United States are similar in this respect to boys in the most remote cultures of Africa and India where he was stationed, this universal experience was most likely a human instinct. When it came time for B-P to invent a game for boys based on his famous military book (that was being used by boys to play army), he called it the "Boy Patrols." In later drafts he changed that to the "Boy Scouts." This game was centered on the desire of boys at the time to hang out in small groups and organize their own hikes with the purpose of practicing outdoor skills like hiking, tracking, stalking, cooking over a fire, and the other outdoor things you can still learn in Scouts. Because the business of a Patrol was to do these things in single groups while hiking in the woods without adults, the Scoutmaster's most important job was to make sure that the best natural leader was in charge of the Patrol. In this version of Scouting, the Scoutmaster is required to meet with the Patrol or the PLC and then appoint the agreed-upon best leader. B-P's Scouting concentrates more on observation and deduction skills, so perhaps it is therefore more obvious who the best leader is. The Scoutmaster's job is exactly the opposite in the BSA. Rather than helping the Scouts find the very best leader, his job is replace the best leaders using regular elections and required "PORs" so that he can teach as many Scouts as possible the business manager theory taught in Wood Badge. To this end Scoutmasters learn a fake Baden-Powell quote, "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose." The basic idea is that if the best leader looses an adult-mandated election because his opponent makes a joke out of Scouting with slogans like "Vote for me 'cause I'm taller then Andrew," then the Scouts learn some kind of deep meaningful lesson by suffering under leaders who don't do their job. In Baden-Powell's version of Scouting, the Scoutmaster is fully responsible for bad leaders. In the BSA version of Scouting, the Scoutmaster gets to roll his eyes and say stupid things like "You Scouts must learn that elections are not popularity contests!" as if national elections in the United States are not decided by swing voters who choose candidates based on who they would most like to have a beer (see "Bill Clinton" and "George W. Bush"). So the point here is that you lost your election because adults who wear pink kerchiefs have screwed up Scouting beyond beyond all recognition. The lesson to be learned is 1) life is not perfect, 2) Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and 3) Learn how to do a stand-up comedy monologue for the next election! After you win Patrol Leader or SPL, suffer through the lame leadership training (that is what gives adults with boring management jobs a "purpose" in Scouting) then use your position to lead your Troop to the best outdoor adventures you can. Oh yeah, and make sure you use your "POR" to keep your stand-up comedy routine highly polished! Kudu

1) Consider buying an extra closed-cell foam mat (as little as $7 at Wal-Mart) so that he has two of them between him and the ice/snow/frozen ground. While sleeping we lose more heat to the snow below us through "conduction" than to the air above us through "radiation." 2) Rather than using a blanket at the bottom of the sleeping bag to decrease volume of sleeping bag, use the space for slightly damp (from sweat, not wet from snow) long underwear (wicking layer) and fleece (warming layer) worn during the day. His body heat will dry the clothing off during the night and it will be warm and dry in the morning. 3) If he has the correct clothing, a fire during the night (or during the day) will not keep him any warmer, and may only melt his clothing. Insulation keeps the warmth of a fire out just as efficiently as it keeps body warmth in (think of a thermos that keeps hot drinks hot or cold drinks cold). Kudu

Real Men don't use the caps lock key.

Accounts of the "Unknown Scout" who refused money for helping William Boyce navigate through the London fog sometimes mention that Boyce left for America with a trunk full of Scouting materials from Baden-Powell's headquarters. I often wonder what happened to Boyce's trunk full of materials because after the YMCA took over from Boyce, the BSA seriously missed the mark on the game nature of Scouting (just as they had absolutely no understanding of the Patrol System). This is still reflected in the BSA's misunderstanding of terms such as "Rank" and "Court of Honor." The "Court of Honor" in Baden-Powell's program is a committee of Patrol Leaders with the power to oversee everything from the Troop's financial matters to Scoutcraft training. The BSA's version of the "Court of Honor" was a centralized committee of adults at the local Council that administered a battery of written examinations plus oral and practical tests for every requirement of every rank for every Scout: "...the candidate must qualify in all of the tests at the time set for the examination. This latter policy, it would seem, would be productive of best results and better order in systematic Scout work, unless a complex system of records, exact in all details, is made use of. Certain definite dates should be determined upon for examinations. More interest should be aroused thereby, and the number of participants would most likely be increased. In any event such a course should prove of advantage in helping to standardize examinations and Scout records" The Scout Masters' Handbook, First Edition, BSA. The BSA now talks a good game about advancement requirements being met through the natural activities of a Troop, but the early anti-Scouting legacy of schoolwork still rules the world of BSA Merit Badges. This is why our attempts to make a game out of the more boring Merit Badges seem so hopelessly lame. This is in sharp contrast to Baden-Powell's program in which Scouting is a game of Scoutcraft and Public Service. B-P's Merit Badges (called "Proficiency Badges") which make up the pool of the required badges are centered on 1) Scoutcraft Skills (Explorer, Stalker, Tracker, Forester, Naturalist, Pioneer, Weatherman) and 2) Public Service (Ambulance Man, Handyman, Pathfinder, Public Health Man, Rescuer). There is a spiritual aspect to this part of Scouting, Scoutcraft skills (worn on the right side of the Uniform) lead to close contact with nature and what Baden-Powell called the "religion of the deep woods." Public Service badges (worn on the left side of the Scout Uniform) represent current proficiency in skills that lead to the service to others -- what he referred to in Christian circles as "Practical Christianity" Unlike Baden-Powell's Scoutcraft and Public Service Proficiency Badges, the required BSA Merit Badges that red-blooded American boys so rightfully despise are the 1) "schoolcraft" badges and 2) shortcuts to the Aims and Methods of Scouting. These include Citizenship, Communications, Environmental Science, Family Life, Personal Fitness, and Personal Management. American Scouters should grow some spine and demand an end to the requirement of these anti-Game of Scouting Merit Badges. The core Tenderfoot through First Class requirements certainly have been dumbed-down for the convenience of parents who want their indoor boys to add Eagle Scout to their resumes. But compared to the BSA Merit Badges, the core skills that do remain are relatively free of schoolcraft requirements and shortcuts to the Aims & Methods. These are limited to physical fitness, service projects, drug awareness, constitutional rights, and Scout Spirit. Therefore it is not only the "git 'er done" mentality of FCFY that looks to school classrooms for the most efficient way to cram three years of experience into the first year of Scouting. It is also the schoolcraft nature of most Merit Badges that has transformed summer camp into summer school complete with class schedules and cafeteria food. Given the classroom nature of summer camp, it is only natural that FCFY would become the middle school to Merit Badge high school. The same year that the YMCA began the systematic deconstruction of pre-BSA American Scoutcraft, Baden-Powell wrote the following essay about "giving them a curriculum which appeals to them" Our Aim In the Army we have certain points to aim for in training our men; but in the long course of years the steps in training have become so absorbing and important that in many cases the aim has come to be lost sight of. Take, for instance, the sword exercise. Here a number of recruits are instructed in the use of the sword in order to become expert fighters with it. They are put into a squad and drilled to stand in certain positions and to deliver certain cuts, thrusts, and guards on a certain approved plan. So soon as they can do this accurately and together like one man -- and it is the work of months to effect this -- they are passed as efficient swordsmen, but they can no more fight an enemy than can my boot. The aim of their instruction has been overlooked in the development of the steps to it. I hope the same mistake is never likely to occur with us in the Boy Scouts. We must keep the great aim ever before us and make our steps lead to it all the time. This aim is to make our race a nation of energetic, capable workers, good citizens, whether for life in Britain or overseas. The best principle to this end is to get the boys to learn for themselves by giving them a curriculum which appeals to them, rather than by hammering it into them in some form of dry-bones instruction. We have to remember that the mass of the boys are already tired with hours of school or workshop, and our training should, therefore, be in the form of recreation, and this should be out of doors as much as possible. That is the object of our badges and games, our examples and standards. If you would read through your Scouting for Boys once more, with the Great Aim always before you, you will see its meaning the more clearly. And the Great Aim means not only the practice of give-and-take with your own officers, but also with other organisations working to the same end. In a big movement for a big object there is no room for little personal efforts; we have to sink minor ideas and link arms in a big "combine" to deal effectively with the whole. We in the Boy Scouts are players in the same team with the Boys' Brigade, Church Lads, Y.M.C.A., and Education Department, and others. Co-operation is the only way if we mean to win success. BP's Outlook, May, 1910.

Bob White writes: "Actually Kudu my post is based on one point alone." But it is a very trivial point based not on what I wrote but on a hostile need to belittle anyone who makes a distinction between the true nature of "Scouting" and the BSA's corporate version of Scouting. However, my post was written for those who follow the BSA's current program and wish to profit from the insight of those who use Baden-Powell's program every week. As I made clear in my first post, this is not reenactment. When updated only for advances 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns, and 3) Lightweight Camping Equipment, Baden-Powell's program is just as practical, fresh, and full of adventure for boys as it was in 1938. How would a Scout born in 1997 even know that a program was written in 1938? Kudu

BobWhite, All of your objections fit into the three categories outlined in my post, don't they? Self-styled "defenders of the 21st century" seek to make the important principles and practices of Baden-Powell's program that have been gutted from the BSA (for the sake of a less challenging Outdoor Method for indoor boys and pop business manager theory "Leadership Development") seem trivial by equating them to practices that have changed due to legitimate advances in: 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns, 3) Lightweight Camping Equipment. "Scouting was, what it was, based on the technology and society of the day." Baden-Powell's Scouting was never based on the "technology and society of the day." It was a strategic retreat from the industrial revolution (and society of declining character and physical health) to what a boy could do with his own hands in the environment in which his species evolved: Simple Scoutcraft Patrols in which Scout Law is practical not moralistic. Kudu

In the world of Scouting, the most committed "learners from the past" are those who play the Game of Scouting the way it was played during Baden-Powell's time. Sometimes called "Traditional Scouting" or "Baden-Powell Scouting," it has similarities to "Vintage Base Ball" (that's three words if you Google it). The basic idea is to pick an arbitrary date (for instance 1938, the date of the last revision of the rules of Scouting edited by Baden-Powell) and play the game of Scouting according to the rules of the time. In vintage Scouting these chosen traditional rules are altered only for advances in 1) Health & Safety, 2) Environmental Concerns, and 3) Lightweight Camping Equipment. These are working Scout associations not "reenactors" because they actually play the game of Scouting all year rather than performing a historically correct demonstration for an audience. For the great majority of Scouters who look to the history of Scouting not to immerse their Troop in such a vintage program but as a source for activities or insight into the current BSA program, these three qualifications can serve as a guide to separate the timeless practices and principles of Scouting from the things ridiculed by modernists (such as trenching around tents, sleeping in large canvas tents, or hiking with heavy wooden backpack frames). Kudu

108 activity ideas for Boy Scout winter camping can be found at the Inquiry Net. Might give you a few ideas for cubs: http://inquiry.net/outdoor/winter/activities/index.htm

hotdesk writes: "However, how do we encourage these scouts to serve in leadership positions?" Are you asking how to encourage these Scouts to serve? Or are you really asking how to get them to enter your February popularity contest? Scouting was invented by a man named Lord Baden-Powell and he did not believe in elections for Patrol Leaders. I would go a step further than BobWhite and note that a Patrol should never have an election unless they actually need a new Patrol Leader. Then you only need to find one good leader at a time. If popularity contests are not working for you then why not follow the Founder's advice: 1) Figure out who your best leader is. 2) Personally ask him to serve. 3) Consult the PLC or the Patrol about your choice and get their approval (if elections are important then make this an up or down vote on your proposal). In other words if nobody wants to run then skip the whole pageant of finding potential losers to run against the best leaders. B-P did not have POR requirements either. They detract from the Patrol Method. Find some alternative for PORs and leave your best leaders alone. "The answer that no one is interested in serving was not a surprise to me. In our area we have several county, city, and township elections that have 1 or fewer candidates running for these positions." By any chance do you live in a community that sees government as "the problem"? I ask because you write that your "guidelines say after two terms you have to take a 1 term break." Term Limits? So you have one natural leader, he gets elected by the Scouts and you make a special point of discouraging him from serving by telling the Scouts they can't vote for him anymore? And you wonder why your Scouts think leadership sucks? Beavah writes: "if yeh identify the "natural" leaders and rascals and tap 'em out this way, you can be amazed sometimes." Yeah, and the very first place I would look is the former leaders who "are now those that are causing behavioral issues within the troop:" One of our methods in the Scout movement for taming a hooligan is to appoint him head of a Patrol. He has all the necessary initiative, the spirit and the magnetism for leadership, and when responsibility is thus put upon him it gives him the outlet he needs for his exuberance of activity, but gives it in a right direction (Baden-Powell, from the article "Are Our Boys Degenerating?" circa 1918). I would also point out that it is not unusual for a Troop to have only one gifted natural leader who is not already committed to sports, a job, or some other non-Scouting activity. Stosh is lucky to have two. I like his idea of building the Troop around his two good leaders. If you only have one exceptionally good leader and he is a Patrol Leader, and if you make sure that the other Patrol Leaders are the best natural leaders in their Patrols then they will try to rise to the best leader's level. If natural leaders are in short supply, you certainly do NOT need an SPL. Baden-Powell considered that position optional for the same reason that hotdesk notes: If you are actually using the Patrol Method then the SPL is mostly a ceremonial position. The Patrol Leaders can take turns representing your troop in front of your Chartered Organization on Scout Sunday, MCing the Court of Honor, representing the troop at Eagle Courts of Honor, and leading the troop in the opening ceremony; along with leading the Annual Troop Planning Conference, planning the PLC meetings and leading them, leading the meetings, and delegating responsibilities for outings. That is the way that Baden-Powell designed Scouting. Kudu (This message has been edited by kudu)

BobWhite writes: "Good luck with the move Kudu, I know how fun they can be." Thanks. "My point was your post suggested that the two First Class wre equivalent but that B-P took more time. " BSA First Class lacks a number of Traditional requirements including observation, tracking, signalling, retesting, and the First Class Journey. How quickly did you advance as a Scout? Looking through our family album recently I was surprised to see that I always wore my Uniform in my birthday party photographs and that I only progressed one rank per year. "So in B-Ps time you had to be 14. If a 13 year old joined the troop could he have completed the requirements for 1st Class in a year. You didn't say." OK, yes. A 13 year-old would be required to "Have at least one month's satisfactory service as a Tenderfoot and satisfy the S.M. that he can repass his Tenderfoot tests" before being awarded the Second Class Badge. And then "Before being awarded the First Class badge, A Second Class Scout must have attained the age of 14 years, and satisfy his S.M. that he can repass his Tenderfoot and Second Class tests...." There are no other time constraints in Baden-Powell's Tenderfoot - First Class program. "Another thing you didn't explain in your first post is that the two 1st Class ranks are related only in name." I don't understand what you mean by "related only in name." Kudu

BobWhite writes: "As it was you who made the comparison it seems only fair that you provide the missing facts." I am literally packing a truck right now and then I will be off the Internet until I relocate in the south. Except for informal customs, the 1938 PO&R has all of the official answers. Perhaps a fellow FCFY-supporter can use it to support your position (which at this point I simply do not understand). "What was the joining age for B-Ps Boy Scouts at the program level where they could earn First Class?" Are you looking for an answer other than "11"? Your post suggests that they are the same award but that B-P took a longer time to teach and test the same requirements.... I guess we agree that they are not the same requirements. B-P's program has some similarities to the BSA's Scoutcraft requirements of the 1920s (the BSA's First Class Journey seems to have disappeared shortly after William Hillcourt's arrival). So compared even to the BSA's own traditional program, the current FCFY is really First Class Lite. Longhaul, Tenderfoot through First Class training and testing was the responsibility of the Patrol Leaders. According to the 1938 PO&R, the retesting of Tenderfoot and Second Class skills had to be to the satisfaction of the Scoutmaster. Proficiency Badge skills were learned by the Scout on his own initiative and then tested by experts in the community called "Examiners" (the equivalent of the Red Cross, for instance). Key Badges were renewed annually and King's Scout candidates were required to re-qualify for all of their previous Badges! The custom was for a Scout to apply to the Court of Honor for permission to meet with an Examiner. Permission would be granted only to Scouts who helped "move the Troop along." As for turnover in the PLC remember that the BSA's "Leadership Development Method" encourages that through regular elections and POR requirements so that Scoutmasters always have a new supply of "Junior Leaders" to teach leadership theory to. A Court of Honor is the opposite of the "Leadership Development Method" because the object is to stick with the Troop's most qualified leaders. Kudu

BobWhite writes: "And Scouts in Baden-Powell's time did not start until what age Kudu?" Rule "244. (i) To become a Scout a boy must have attained the age of 11, but not have reached his eighteenth birthday, unless about to become a Rover, as in Rule 265 (i)." (Boy Scouts Association, "Policy, Organisation, and Rules," 1938) "And his advancement structure was not the same as the BSA today was it?" True enough. In fact "Advancement" is a BSA term and concept that is foreign to Baden-Powell's version of meeting requirements called "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft". BSA "Advancement" is based at least in part on: 1) Classroom instruction shortcuts to the Aims of Scouting (physical fitness, citizenship, Scout Spirit, etc. requirements) rather than B-P's indirect "Scouting is a game" Scoutcraft approach. 2) Parking lot "Advancement" as opposed to Baden-Powell's required Journeys in which a Scout tests for himself his Scoutcraft skills against a deep-woods environment. 3) Checklist mentality (once something is checked off, a BSA Scout is "done" with it), rather than B-P's current proficiency Scoutcraft including the re-testing of core requirements and the annual re-certification of key Public Service Badges (no "Once an Eagle, always an Eagle"). "Your post suggests an apples to apples comparison and it isn't." Why don't you research this while I am on the road and report back to us, in a spun thread if necessary? The 1938 PO&R is considered significant in the history of Scouting because it was the final one that B-P edited before his retirement. Therefore it is his "last word" on the specifics of his Scouting program. It is not yet available online, but a pdf of the Canadian version can now be viewed at: http://www.scoutscan.com/history/scoutbook_150dpi.pdf See Sections 63-65. Despite a different numbering system, most of the wording in these sections is the same as B-P's Scouts Association PO&R, but at first glance includes the following variations: Canadian Tenderfoot Must be 12 years old. Canadian 2nd Class Includes Scout's Pace Does not include Pioneering (square & diagonal lashings, timber hitch, rolling hitch, and fisherman's hitch). Does not include re-passing the Tenderfoot tests. Canadian 1st Class Includes a Savings Account Substitutes training a recruit for re-passing Tenderfoot and 2nd Class tests. Kudu

LongHaul writes: "Fine Kudu then where is the problem with having a written plan to teach these skills so that when this scout goes off to a function and interacts with other scouts they all do thigs the same way. Whats wrong with haveing a standardized method rather than what ever the person at hand "thinks" is the way? What is wrong with having a plan or rotation to address basic skills rather than a hodge podge approach based on individual scouts?" Just a difference in values, perhaps. Your objective seems to be to produce interchangeable parts through standardized "instruction," while Baden-Powell's objective is to produce self-directed learners. Four differences in these approaches may account for something: 1) In Baden-Powell's method the quality of Scoutcraft instruction reflects on the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in Council). A Troop's committee does not conduct "Boards of Review" (and by the way the COH deals with all internal matters "including the expenditure of Troop funds..."). 2) A Second Class candidate must prove that he can re-pass his Tenderfoot tests, which in practice was often met by teaching the skills to a new recruit. 3) A First Class candidate must prove that he can re-pass his Tenderfoot and Second Class tests. 4) Most importantly the final test of a First Class Scout is to set off with another Scout on a 24 hour Journey of 14 miles (or 30 miles riding a bike or animal). So Scoutcraft skills are tested, retested, and then proven on a backwoods ordeal. In the BSA the quality of a Troop's Scoutcraft skills is monitored by a committee of adults, retesting is against the rules, and an indoor boy can earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Bob White writes: "We did a lot of patrol activities where the more experienced patrols did trips outside of the troop events. Depending on the skill level of the patrol and the type of trip and location, the patrols either had a pair of adult leaders nearby but outside the patrol site, or with no adult at all." Self-sufficient Patrols prove that your methods work in the real world. "Dodge ball might be OK if played patrol against patrol. Unfortunately, in most cases patrols are mixed or divided in order to create 'equal sides'." Yes, I agree completely. Nothing proves the absence of the Patrol Method quicker than counting off by twos. Sometimes the unequal sides can be compensated with the SPL and ASPL, or a Patrol of older Scouts can be pitted against two Patrols of younger Scouts. I always remind the SPL that dodge ball does NOT have to be fair to be fun! Did the Patrol Leader of a smaller Patrol talk to his Scouts to make sure they would be at the meeting? Do the members of a small Patrol have friends that like dodge ball? "Would you not find greater value in helping explain to leaders the ways that the actual current program supports the philosophies and methods of B-P and how to continue to get his results by using the current program." At the very least I would suggest that understanding how B-P's methods differ from Hillcourt's methods and how both differ from the current BSA methods gives Scouters an opportunity to view the current program with "fresh eyes." "The world that B-P first introduced Scouting to is much different then life in the US today." "I disagree with posters who argue that is the youth that have changed." These two statements seem to say different things. I agree completely with the later because my experience of recruiting in the public Schools shows that 75% of all sixth-grade boys will sign a list for joining or are already in another Troop. Getting their parents to allow them to join is a different matter, however, and perhaps this indicates that the world of adults is much different now than when B-P first introduced Scouting. "I think B-P would have no problem with the First Class emphasis Program...." Baden-Powell required that a First Class Scout be 14 years old, so if it had been in his nature to propose a First Class emphasis Program he might have called it "First Class in Three Years"! On that note I must unplug my desktop and for a while relocate 400 miles south of Dunwoody Kudu

Bob White writes: "Are you saying when [b-P] trained adult leaders he never taught them skills to teach the scouts and specific methods to do that teaching that was fun and incorporated games and the outdoors?" The basic idea was that most training would occur under the Patrol Leader during a Patrol's separate Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes. As for Troop Meetings and Troop Campouts it was expected that the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in Council) would set the general theme and then ask the Scouters to plan the details and report back to the Court for final approval. That is why so many of the creative ideas books of that era were written for adults. Given your familiarity with Hillcourt I would be interested in how you train Patrol Leaders to conduct their own Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts (if only 300 feet away) and how that figures into getting Scouts from Tenderfoot to First Class in a year. "Please let me know where anything I have shared does not follow the lessons you learned from him when he spoke with you." Well since you asked, Hillcourt spoke to me once during a nasty lightning storm on the road to a campout in Damascus. He asked why I persecute dodge-ball since it is such an beneficial force in forming and maintaining Patrols. So you might want to set aside more time for dodge-ball or risk being hit by lightning. LongHaul writes: "Now I read that learning should come from within and not from instruction which is from without. These, according to a great quoter out of context, come straight from the guy who wrote a book for boys which says that you should not write books?" The context of the quotes is that learning should come from a Scout's desire to learn a skill which in turn leads him to read about it, push his Patrol to practice it in a Patrol Meeting or Patrol Hike, or to seek out someone else to teach him. In the case of Proficiency Badges a Scout learns the subject first then asks the Patrol Leaders in Council for permission to meet with an examiner. Kudu

Beavah writes: "Yah, LongHaul. It took me a while to work my way through da document BrentAllen posted, eh? That's quite a piece of work. What a great resource... a whole formal school curriculum for T21. Clearly done by a professional educator. Learnin' objectives and alignment with standards and everything! Well laid out lecture-demonstration outlines. Plus some regular school quizzes on requirements and lesson evaluation forms to be collected by Troop Committee Administrators. Even a sample school calendar and lesson progression. Only thing it's missin' is da standardized No Scout Left at Second Class exam!" Um, not so fast Beavah. How about school lunches? Most Boy Scout summer camps have replaced the Patrol Method with school cafeterias in the interest of running a more efficient summer school. A recent post to Scouts-L would serve as the perfect companion piece to Jeff Thompson's teacher's guide: The same thing holds with salad bars and fresh fruit. If the council wants it they put it in the contract. Over the last two years the salad bar has improved immensely and is there every day for both lunch and dinner. It is actually better than the salad bar at the restaurant in town that some of our adults usually go to one night during the week.... So, while I understand, and have experienced, many of the problems you describe, they are more a symptom of a poorly written contract, or a council looking to cut fees and blaming the contractor, because those problems are not universal. In general the contractors will provide whatever their customer wants and is willing to pay for." The modern movement to turn the center of Scouting away from the Patrol Method and toward a business management/professional education model began in 1972 with the elimination of the "Scout Way" as a Method of Scouting ("Scouting is a Game, not a Science") and the introduction of "Leadership Development" and "Personal Growth" as two of the "Seven Methods of Scouting" (the Uniform was demoted from "Method" to "Additional Program Element" status for almost a decade). The Scoutmaster Conference became a progressive-education "personal growth agreement conference" complete with a list of behavioral learning objectives. On a certain level you have to admire the pride, the joy, the dedication, and the pure exuberance with which Wood Badgers move Scouting toward their vision of a bright and shinny future where the opposite of Baden-Powell is considered "modern." And who can blame them? Anyone can understand the importance of a school curriculum and a good salad bar, but B-P's insistence that Scouting is "self-development" (which comes from within) and NOT "instruction" (which comes from without) seems so abstract and "old-fashioned" in comparison. Besides, if it was an important distinction it would be covered in the official publications of the BSA, now wouldn't it? :-/ It could be a lot worse. For all of his faults, without James West the Patrol Method would never have been adopted by the BSA. Perhaps someday an equally outspoken Chief Scout Executive will restore it to its former status as "The ONLY Method of Scouting." Stranger things have happened. Who among us who argued for it believed that we would live to see the Uniform relieved of its garish clown colors and restored to its function as an outdoor Method? Beavah writes: "I'm tempted to dig up B-P's essay about trenchin' on da work of schools" Here is the passage to which Beavah is referring (if you want to read the full version just Google it): If once we make Scouting into a formal scheme of serious instruction in efficiency, we miss the whole point and value of Scout training, and we trench on the work of the schools without the trained experts for carrying it out. We want to get ALL our boys along through cheery self-development from within and not through the imposition of formal instruction from without. Here is a passage from the Introduction to Aids to Scoutmastership (Revised Edition): What Scouting Is Not Experience in different fields show that there are certain shoals to be avoided in launching Scouting, lest it get stranded in commercialism or diverted into dead-end channels that never lead to the open sea. Here, then, are some of the things that Scouting is not: ...It is not a school having a definite curriculum and standards of examination... These all come from without, whereas the Scout training all comes from within. Kudu

The New Scout Patrol has two votes in the PLC: the Patrol Leader and the Troop Guide. When we tried New Scout Patrols for a couple of years I appointed an Eagle Scout as their Patrol Leader. "I could point out that the language of Scouting says not to capitalize the terms "patrol leader" or "patrol" and that there is nothing officially called the "Troop Leader Council". :-)" I wasn't aware that "the language of Scouting says not to" :-/ The elements of Scouting such as "Troop," "Patrol," and "Troop Leaders' Council;" and titles such as "Patrol Leader" were first capitalized during the much belated rise of the Patrol Method in the BSA in the 1930s under William Hillcourt. Perhaps Hillcourt brought the practice with him from Europe because the Boy Scouts Association's "Policy, Organisation, and Rules" of that period (edited under Baden-Powell) used the same convention. The BSA reversed its capitalization policy again with the 5th edition of the Scoutmaster's Handbook in 1959. This btw was when the term "patrol leaders' council" was introduced. I associate the neutering of capitalization with the neutering of the Patrol Method itself which began (soon after Hillcourt's retirement) with the introduction of Positions of Responsibility requirements (which discouraged Patrols from always being run by their best available leader), and the later demolition of Patrol Leader Training in 1972 to make way for "Leadership Development" theory. I use William Hillcourt's capitalization to honor the rise of the Patrol Method in the United States under him, and I will continue until such time as the Guide to Safe Scouting prohibits it in the anti-laser-tag tradition of safety I believe that youth on BORs was a 1970s invention. Boards of Review (along with Scoutmaster Conferences, Scout Spirit requirements, etc.) were a legacy of the adult-run era before the BSA discovered the Patrol Method. Having grown up in Baden-Powell's Patrol System, Hillcourt would have been well aware that maintaining the integrity of a Troop's Scoutcraft instruction was a function of the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in Council) not the Board of Review. Also missing from the BSA's understanding of entrusting the Patrol Leaders with the integrity of Scoutcraft is the practice of retesting and the policy of current proficiency. In the Patrol System "Public Service" Proficiency Badges (such as First Aid) must be re-certified annually or even a King's Scout (the equivalent of Eagle Scout) must surrender his badge. Kudu

William Hillcourt's Patrol Method: Until the invention of "Leadership Development" in 1972, the SPL was elected by the Patrol Leaders. He was "in charge" of carrying out (coordinating) the plans made by these PLs in the Patrol Leaders' Council. Thus the "chain of command" in Hillcourt's Patrol Method is: PLC -> SPL, not: SM -> SPL -> PLs. In theory this is still true because the PLC (not the Scoutmaster) runs the Troop, and the Patrol Leaders can outvote the SPL. This is likely to happen only when the Patrol Leaders are more talented than the SPL and ASPL. The advantage of this (if you can arrange it) is that you can then separate your Patrols by 300 feet under the leadership of your Troop's most talented leaders rather than squishing them all together as in the Troop Method. Robert Baden-Powell's Patrol System: In this model of Scouting the SPL (called the "Troop Leader") is optional. If used he is appointed by the Scoutmaster in consultation with the Patrol Leaders in Council (called the "Court of Honor"). In this model of Scouting most activities are done by Patrols independently of the Troop and the SPL position is largely ceremonial. Thus if leadership talent is not in abundance one of the Patrol Leaders can act as SPL as needed. There is no "ASPL" nor POR requirements so any holder of the appropriate Proficiency Badge can act as Quartermaster, etc. The SM attends but does not interfere with COH meetings and waits to be asked by the Patrol Leaders for advice, thus the "chain of command" is the same as Hillcourt's. How B-P's (and Hillcourt's) model is designed to work can be seen in: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Kudu

How about an option for Troops that use the Patrol Method? Some camps make it easy for a Troop to pick up its share of the raw food so that it can be cooked in the Patrol campsites. Kudu

A pretty-good list of discussion questions for using Master and Commander at a JLT cabin campout can be found at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/training/movies.htm

Moderators: Keep the personal attacks under control (hint: look for the word "you") and lay off the thread closing. Kudu