Kudu

The best test of any Scouting theory is to experiment with Baden-Powell's advice to separate the Patrols by at least 300 feet. It's not against the law, you know! If in a small Troop with only two Patrols you see the SPL and ASPL running back and forth between the Patrols to tell them what to do, then their talent would more effectively be used as Patrol Leaders. Kudu

Here are some of his suggestions: Finding the Patrol Leaders by William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt The leaders are there: right within your Troop. The way to find them is by looking for the attributes which are common in the boy leader. Personality and Popularity: Naturally, it is of prime importance that the boy possess some of the characteristics which indicate him as a natural leadercontagious enthusiasm, a measure of executive ability, a little knack of organizing, dependability. Physique and Health: If he is strong and healthy, interested in sports and an "all around boy," so much the better. Boys respect athletic prowess and physical courage. Age: Few boys are apt to follow willingly another boy materially younger than themselves, unless they recognize particular skills in him. Tenure in Scouting: Only a reasonable tenure in Scouting can develop in a boy the loyalty to the Scoutmaster, to the Troop, and, first of all, to the principles of Scouting which will make him fit for Scout leadership. Intelligence and Scoutcraft Knowledge: A Patrol Leader should have the brains and push to set the pace in advancing in Scouting. If he is outdistanced by his Scouts, he is in grave danger of losing their respect. Initiative and Energy: You cannot have a leader that has to be pushed. He must be equipped with a self-starter, with initiative that will get things going in the Patrol, and he must have the energy to carry through what he has started. Common Sense and Self-Control: He should feel instinctively when "rough house" and when seriousness is in place. He should set a proper example to the others, without being "preachy." He must take no unnecessary chances. Good judgment and self-control will take care of most situations which may arise in a Patrol's life. They will help the boy leader to look philosophically on slight hurts, misunderstandings and jealousies, and together with a nice sense of humor will deflect any shocks which might hurt a more sensitive personality. Helpfulness: He must have a sense of helpfulness toward each Scout in his Patrol, the Patrol as a whole and his Troop.

Every Scoutmaster should at least once in his life observe Baden-Powell's advice to always keep Patrols 300 feet apart. If you finally work up the courage to rise to Baden-Powell's standard and your Patrols do not function like well-oiled machines then perhaps the practical Traditional Scouting methods that produced such working Patrols are worth looking at. But first let me reply to a couple of Tahawk's points: Tahawk writes: This is all vintage history, but I have the 1916 Handbook. It does say that Patrol Leaders may be elected or appointed by the SM. However, in Scouting for Boys, Part I, BP says the PL's are "appointed." Actually, Baden-Powell's official rule requires the Scoutmaster to consult with either the Patrol in question or with the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in Council) before making the appointment. An example of a Troop in which the Scoutmaster and the Patrol Leaders discuss such an appointment in passing can be found in the following "transcript" of a typical COH: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm Most Americans are puzzled by this procedure (which B-P stuck to all his life, by the way). Tahawk and others demonize such Scoutmasters as victimizing Patrol Leaders by "pronouncing them inferior and overriding the decision of the Scouts." Of course the whole point of having real criteria for Patrol Leader Selection is to inform the decision of the Scouts. For all practical purposes the main difference between B-P's appointment procedure and Hillcourt's version of Patrol elections is that in B-P's method the Scoutmaster takes responsibility for the decision, and in Hillcourt's version the Scoutmaster is left to veto a disastrous choice. Casting the selection of Patrol Leaders in moralistic terms ignores the question: What do Patrol Leaders Actually do? In Baden-Powell's Scouting (and to a lesser degree in William Hillcourt's BSA Scouting): 1. Patrol Leaders are responsible for teaching & "signing off" Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class skills. 2. This is done primarily during individual Patrol Meetings and Patrol Hikes without adult supervision. 3. Patrol Leaders are trained to conduct adult-free Patrol campouts. In practice this usually occurs during Troop campouts with Patrols a minimum of 300 feet apart. In Traditional Scouting, # 1-3 is what Scouters mean when they use the term "Patrol System" or "Patrol Method." Given the potential for something to go wrong without adult supervision it is helpful to think of a Patrol Leader as requiring the same maturity and the same level of specialized instruction as a lifeguard. In addition to safety issues, in Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" a Patrol Leader once appointed is a member of the Court of Honor (COH) which has most of the adult powers of a BSA Troop Committee. The "Court of Honor" is so named because the Patrol Leaders are responsible for the Troop's reflection on Scouting's ideals, and the quality of skills-training (this means no Scout Spirit advancement requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, or Boards of Review). As demonstrated in the above sample COH session, adult leaders first hear that a Scout has been promoted to Tenderfoot, Second Class, or First Class from the Scout's Patrol Leader, not the other way around. But if a Patrol Leader starts to slack off (always hiking his Patrol to the same old destination, for instance) he gets feedback in the COH. After reaching First Class a Scout must ask the COH for permission to meet with a Badge Examiner. If the Scout has not been pulling his share in the Troop, the request is delayed until he pitches in (most jobs except Patrol Leader are performed ad hoc by any Scout with the appropriate Proficiency Badge, as opposed to fixed terms for Quartermasters, Scribes, Instructors, etc. To continue to hold a Proficiency Badge, it must be kept current). The COH is responsible for the logistics of meetings and outings (which they can delegate to the Scouters in attendance). The Court of Honor also holds the Troop's bank account! So which model fosters the greatest degree of youth empowerment? You can answer in moralistic terms, OR you can judge the issue in terms of a loose equation: The degree to which a Scoutmaster allows a Patrol to elect anyone it wants is inversely proportional to the responsibily he gives his Patrol Leaders as measured by their authority over Advancement, the frequency of adult-free Patrol Hikes, and the distance between Patrols at Troop campouts. So as a practical matter how does a modern Scoutmaster work toward the degree of youth empowerment in Traditional Scouting if he feels obligated to elected leadership? Young William Hillcourt faced exactly that dilemma when he arrived here from Denmark. Tahawk writes: It would be accurate to say that Scouting in both the UK and US thankfully found its way to elected PL's as the official methodology, in the U.S. and reached that place no later than Bill's HBPL of 1929. Not sure when they got straight about that issue in the UK. and: Your expressed attitude is also contrary to the Patrol Method...You strongly suggest that you would use means NOT approved by the BSA to reach your ends of empowering those who are, in your opinion, ideal leaders. "Where a man cannot conscientiously take the line required, his one manly course is to put it straight to his Commissioner or to headquarters, and if we cannot meet his views, then to leave the work." Strong moralistic stuff! In fact election of Patrol Leader has its origin in the six methods that were the "official methodology" of the very first edition of the BSA Handbook for Scout Masters. But what the BSA "got straight" was the opposite of Baden-Powell's Patrol System: The Patrol Leader as a symbolic "team captain" in a rigidly adult-controlled program: The Six Principles of Boy-Work 1) A Clear Plan, Well Thought Out, Progressive in its Stages; 2) The Leader Should Tell the Boys What the Game is and How it is to be Played; 3) Application of Self-Government; 4) The Scout Master as a Real Leader; 5) Differences, "Scraps," and Misunderstandings; 6) Rules and Infringements of Rules. In the BSA's "democratic" system, the "Scout Master" was required to divide the Troop up into Patrols. The "means approved by the BSA" were called "Grouping Standards," and allowing Scouts to simply pick a Patrol in which their friends were members was NOT an option. The BSA "Scout Master" could divide the boys up 1) by their social class, 2) by their hobbies, 3) by their ages, or 4) by the "scientifically correct Height and Weight Standard": If this method is used for grouping, the standards for athletic competition among the boys might be used, that is, all the boys of ninety pounds and under might be put together, the same being true for those under one hundred and ten, one hundred and twenty-five, and one hundred and forty pounds. If height is used, boys of fifty-six and a half inches in height and classifying under ninety pounds in weight, might be grouped together. Also boys of sixty-three inches in height and coming within the one hundred and ten pound weight. Presumably a dutiful Scout Master would periodically make the rounds with a tape measure and a scale to make sure that no boy 56.75" in height or 90 pounds remained in the 56.5" Patrol! To "get in on the deal," a boy had to agree before admission to the Troop that the Scout Master decides "what the game is and how it is to be played": First, there must be a clear plan well thought out, progressive in its stages with an aim for each stage. In other words no man need try to work with a group of boys unless he knows what he wants to do, not only in outline but in detail. He must have these details in mind and so well worked out in his thought knowing exactly what comes next....as to be master of the situation at all times and to be the recognized leader....That is to say, he should tell the boys what the game is and how it is to be played, getting their approval and agreement to get in on the deal [emphasis added]. Therefore, once the Patrol Leaders were elected, the BSA required the Scout Master to distrust their judgment and to control the activities of the Patrol himself. To this end, when the Scout Master delegated decisions, the BSA instructed him to delegate to the entire group rather than to the Patrol Leaders! The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [Handbook for Scout Masters first edition, page 85, emphasis added]. So I ask again: Which model fostered the greatest degree of youth empowerment: Baden-Powell's method of Scoutmaster appointment (after consulting with the Patrol and/or the Court of Honor) in which the Patrol Leaders performed most of the Troop jobs currently done in the USA by adults; or the BSA election model which was by any fair assessment the very opposite of the Patrol Method? No wonder that when the BSA finally adopted the Patrol Method on September 21, 1923, James West described it as "a radical change in the management of troops"! The elected but powerless "team captain" Patrol Leader was the legacy that William Hillcourt inherited when he arrived here from Denmark. Kudu

Gold Winger writes: There is the question of whether Scouts should remove their caps indoors. There's a website out there someplace with discussion of that topic. There are pictures in old handbooks showing Scouts in meetings wearing their hats. That would be The Kudu Net, of course. I scanned 33 photographs and drawings from official BSA handbooks showing Scouters, Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Dan Beard (one of the BSA's founders) all wearing Scout hats indoors during both formal and informal activities, including church services and service projects in churches. One interesting detail is that when the BSA switched to field caps, the illustrations of people wearing campaign hats indoors were painstakingly redrawn and the photographs were carefully re-shot to show everyone all wearing the new hats indoors! http://kudu.net/uniforms/hats/inside.htm I guess "bad manners" aren't what they used to be :-/ Kudu

I used my recruiting presentation to register around 14 new Scouts this year, I think we lost three: two who in the end were not the outdoors type, and a third who started fights at every meeting and campout. The parents of three more were eager have their sons join but wanted to wait until after football season. I moved from the area and don't know if anyone followed up. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm Kudu

TAHAWK writes: "Kudu, I don't fully understand your beef." Google "cognitive dissonance:" The Wikipedia account of the 1956 UFO doomsday cult is a good example of my "beef" with the "goals of Scouting." "I first took Scouter training in 1962. Our SM required it for new SM's. I still have my notes (now seriously brittle and tea-brown): 'Scouting is a citizenship-training program wrapping in a game.' I guess I just don't see these sorts of statements regarding the goals of Scouting as inconsistent with BP's comments. In fact, they fit just fine for me." Yes, they are the same pretty words, aren't they? The difference between the BSA in 1962 and in 2008 is that in 1962 the "game" that you mention was a hard-played game. In 2008 any indoor boy can earn Eagle Scout without EVER walking into the woods with a pack on his back. Do you think that is an exaggeration? Check the requirements for Camping Merit Badge and then compare the physical exertion and the mastery of basic skills required for Eagle with those required for any school sport and you will understand the true meaning of "Parlour Scouting." That is why the two most important Methods of Scouting (the Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method) are infinitely more important than the so-called "Three Aims of Scouting" (a 1972 invention). As for Baden-Powell's comments, when B-P spoke about Citizenship as the sole aim of Scouting, he was talking about the direct experience of Citizenship in the Patrol System. The fundamental idea is that Scouting is a game in which Scouts learn citizenship from older Scouts 1) in a primitive environment in which Scout Law is a practical guide for getting along, and 2) by providing "Service for Others" in their community (no counting the hours for advancement, by the way). He wrote that the Patrol System is the direct opposite of learning Citizenship through "Instruction." Therefore his Merit Badges (called Proficiency Badges) are either Scoutcraft Badges (worn on the right side of the Uniform) or Public Service Badges (worn on the left). There are no classroom Merit Badges (including "Citizenship"). For the first decade of its history, the BSA flatly rejected B-P's Patrol System in favor of tightly adult-run model. Among other things this introduced classroom instruction Citizenship Merit Badges: The exact opposite of Scouting, even though the goals sound similar. "'1972': My complaint about Boy Power/urban-relevant Scouting, which I viewed from outside Scouting and, later, in a historic perspective, is that weakening the outdoor program reduced the attraction of Scouting to urban youth, NOT that any method is more sacred than the goals and objectives." In other words: The ends always justify the means. This is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance. In this approach to Scouting (often associated with the fake B-P quote "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose") the "purpose" of the Outdoor Method is to "attract" kids to Scouting, and the "purpose" of the Patrol Method is to teach "Leadership." This is exactly backward, because Scouting IS Scoutcraft and the Patrol System. Without them you do not have Scouting, no matter what your "Mission Statement" says. As I outlined in my previous post, to pander to urban youth the BSA removed from the requirements for Eagle ALL of the Merit Badges that required camping. Given the stunning stupidity of such a thing, how can you possibly not recognize that the Outdoor Method is more important than abstract "goals and objectives"? The Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method existed before the so-called "Aims of Scouting," not the other way around. Of course the ONLY reason that William Hillcourt was called in to restore the Outdoor Method was that dumbing the program down to attract urban youth did not increase the BSA's overall market-share, in fact the BSA went into a sharp decline. It should be noted that although he did restore most of the camping requirements, Hillcourt was not allowed to touch the new "Leadership Development Method" which did to his greatest creation--the Patrol Method--what rats and cockroaches had done to the Outdoor Method. "As for the Scoutmaster's job vis-a-vis training 'leaders' - a term applied strictly to Scouts in our Troop (adults are 'Scouters'), I think the Patrol Method works better with trained leaders just as a squad, platoon, company, etc, functions better with a trained leader." It depends on what you mean by a "trained leader." Hillcourt's Patrol Leader Training (PLT) course trained Patrol Leaders how to be Patrol Leaders. JLT dumbed training down to the least common denominator: Troop Scribes, Librarians, and Historians. I would also note that for it to be a valid comparison, the object of military "Leadership Development" would be to teach everybody how to be a leader and to that end hold regular elections with term limits so that every "sorry" would-be leader in the squad, platoon, company, etc. got an equal opportunity to be voted in to learn "leadership" under fire. "Are there 'natural leaders'? Sure. And my experience is that THEY do better as leaders with leadership training, just as they do better as Scoutcraft trainers with training in Scoutcraft." I agree. By "natural leaders" I mean Scouts with above-average IQs, adult-level verbal skills (which usually get them into trouble at school), the physical bearing to keep order without adult assistance, and an all-pervading but distinctly anti-moralistic embrace of Scout Law. In my experience every one of these "natural leaders" enjoyed learning abstract leadership skills. And I've seen some pretty sorry "material" do significantly better after leadership training. Here is where I part company with you. Leadership training should serve the Patrol Method (as in Hillcourt's Methods of Scouting model), not the other way around. To the Wood Badge Brain there would be absolutely nothing wrong with allowing "some pretty sorry 'material'" lead a squad, platoon, company into fire because the purpose of the new Wood Badge is to teach Leadership to everybody, not to establish working Patrols that always camp 300 feet apart. "'Pink'? The wearing of the beads is encouraged with any neckerchief. Is it the beads that offend? If so, recall who introduced them as an outward sign of the demonstrated commitment of Scouters who wanted to do better." This is another cognitive dissonance based on the conviction that the ends justify the means. To me the pink represents the passive nature of Wood Badge: 1) a "commitment" to obey anyone who tells them to "Dumb it Down and Call it Modern!" and 2) a passive approach to leadership in which they work with any sorry material that the Scouts vote into office. If the abstract theories of Wood Badge had any real-world validity what-so-ever, most of the course would be devoted to strategies for Scoutmasters to 1) recognize the very best leaders and 2) reach a consensus with their Patrols that keeps them in power. I always wear my Beads, but my Beads stand for what Baden-Powell intended them to stand for: An absolute commitment to Scoutcraft and the Patrol System. Without them the Ideals of Scouting are only pretty words. Kudu

I'm with Bob White on this one. It is illogical to believe that revealing that the Scout did not complete requirement #7c would identify him any more clearly than reporting that he was the only Scout in her Troop to be denied advancement on March 11, 2008. Kudu

There was a time when Eagle Scout stood for the absolute mastery of outdoor skills. Total exertion in the wild, intimate interaction with nature, and public service to the community shaped real values based on the absolute certainty and self-confidence of being comfortable in your own skin in all situations. Now we hand out Eagle badges to boys who have never walked into the woods with a pack on their back! If they have completed the written requirements then they certainly deserve it, but it does not "mean" anything. Their parking lot "values" are just opinions. Eagle Scout is just a rank. Get over it. 99% of all that is wrong with the BSA would be solved by training Patrols to camp 100 yards apart. Make that happen by staffing ad hoc High Adventure training activities in your Council. You will find that many real Scouts still exist on the edge and your faith in Scouting will be restored. Kudu

Lisabob forgot to start this thread with her customary admonition not to upset her with details about the Patrol Method. This gives us leave to note that Boards of Review and Scout Spirit Requirements are legacies of the first decade of the BSA's history when the YMCA founders and their fellow-travelers rejected Baden-Powell's Patrol System in favor of a tightly-adult-run program. Adult Association is just another word for adult-run. Qualification for advancement should be determined by the Patrol Leaders in Council, not a bunch of indoor Cub Scout Wood Badge Committee Members. Rather than taking the easy way out and sucking up, I hope the Scout in question Googles "Mumbled, mono-syllabic answers," finds Bob White's advice, appeals the BOR's decision, and administers to this Committee a very sound and public spanking after each and every BOR. Now THAT is articulating an answer beyond a shrug and "dunno"! By the time he gets to his Eagle BOR this positive Scouting experience may have inspired a career in law. I love this Scouting stuff! Kudu

DYB-Mike writes: "It seems to me that, back at that time, at the point one would take Wood Badge ones scouting career would be just about over. What then was the point of Wood Badge back at that time?" Before 1972 the Wood Badge indicated qualification to train Scoutmasters. This was serious business because Scoutmasters were responsible for conducting a six-month Patrol Leader Training (PLT) course called "Intensive Training in the Green Bar Patrol." This form of leadership training requires the Scoutmaster to act as Patrol Leader of the Green Bar Patrol with the SPL as his Assistant Patrol Leader and the PLC as Patrol members. The Patrol conducts 1) Patrol Meetings, 2) a Patrol Hike, and 3) a Patrol Campout. The object of the course is to train a Patrol Leader how to be responsible for his Patrol's Advancement by competently conducting these three basic functions of a Boy Scout Patrol without adult supervision. See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm In 1972 everything changed. The BSA cultural revolution eliminated the Uniform Method and the "Scout Way" Method, introduced the new "Leadership Development" Method, and radically deconstructed the Outdoor Method and the Patrol Method. Perhaps the most striking aspect of this deconstruction was the dumbing down of Traditional Scouting to make it relevant to inner-city youth. The BSA's commitment was absolute and all-pervasive: ALL of the Merit Badges that required camping were stripped from the Eagle list. Let me repeat that: Not a SINGLE Merit Badge that involved camping was now required to be an Eagle Scout! The politically correct Eighth Edition of the Scout Handbook became a wealth of information on Scouting in the inner-city, including on page 282 a new illustrated guide to signs of wildlife that included the Clothes Moth, House Mouse, House Fly, Cockroach, and Norway Rat. More relevant to your question, Mike: The only index reference to what to do if lost was the advice to simply ask a policeman for directions! So Wood Badge as serving the practical need to train a Patrol Leader how to safely lead his Patrols into the woods became obsolete: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook [1972], page 155). Anyone who linked leadership to Scoutcraft skills in the Patrol Method was now "old fashioned" and "elitist." Kudu

CrewMomma writes: "You probably guessed it but I am WB trained and currently on staff...yes people are put into patrols and people learn if they choose to learn - or not if they can't get passed their closed minds. Saying that the course has been "dumbed down" is an ignorant statement, plain and simple. Ignorant, intolerant, and bad spirit." In case anyone could possibly miss anything so absolutely perfect, what did I tell you all about answering Eamonn's trick question? Um, that would be: "If you answer that you have taken the course then they will counter that you did not do so with an 'open mind.' This accusation of thought-crime is usually the first in a long barrage of ad hominem attacks which reveal the true nature of Wood Badge." Wood Badge is my sock-puppet! Kudu

Joni4TA writes: "I am not a direct contact leader; I have always functioned on the committee. I took Scoutmaster training 4 years ago just so I could understand better, what the SM's function in a Troop was supposed to be, so that I could serve my unit better by supporting them." Thank you for your service to Scouting! Joni4TA's pro-action is why I don't buy the decision to dumb down Wood Badge for the sake of Committee Members and other indoor administrators. The Wood Badge should indicate that its wearer understands the Boy Scout program by actually camping at least 100 yards from the nearest Patrol (our WB Patrols were 1/4 to 3/4 mile apart), cooking every meal over a wood fire, and otherwise surviving the baptism of full immersion in the Patrol Method if only for one week in is or her life. Joni4TA writes: "my husband was WB trained in the early 1990's and has given me his course material and explained/taught me as best he can, what the gist of the experience was for him. I accepted this teaching, but WB has apparently changed A LOT since he went through it." I would make a distinction between the "course material" and what the "experience was for him." At that time the content of the course was an abstract leadership theory called "The Eleven Leadership Skills" which Scoutmasters then took back to their Troops to teach in the place of the previous three Patrol Leader skills (how to conduct--without adult supervision--Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts). The "course material" at that time still included some of the original outdoor skills, so despite the anti-outdoor origin of the Eleven Leadership Skills, the actual "experience" of Wood Badge included an immersion in the Patrol Method. As Marshall McLuhan said, "The Medium is the Message." Joni4TA writes: "In other words, the unit I serve has 3 WB beaders but basically they poo-poo the patrol method and make excuses about WHY our Troop can't use it - everything from "we only have 18 boys and that's not enough" (which is hogwash), to the more recent excuse I just got last week, which was the SM didn't think using the Patrol method, at least on the campouts (operating with an ADULT PATROL where the ADULTS lead by EXAMPLE), was feasible - because he didn't think the boys would be able to have a nutritious meal in a decent amount of time if left on their own to handle it. (YIKES)" In all fairness, I have NEVER heard a Wood Badger say that they don't use the Patrol Method! They simply define the Patrol Method away. For instance "we only have 18 boys and that is not enough for the Patrol Method" is usually spun as a varitation of Stupid Idea #2: "The Eight Methods are all of equal value and the Patrol Method is only one of the eight. Therefore we keep the boys together 7/8 of the time." Adults cooking on monthly campouts is new to me, but the idea that cooking by Patrols is a waste of time is the very signature of the new Wood Badge. This signature is usually spun as Stupid Ideas #10, 11, and 12: "We used the Patrol Method when they sat together by Patrols to eat." "'Family Camping Program' which personally disgusts me in a manner that is beyond my abilities to express.' Yeah, don't go there. You are already on the "Enemies of Wood Badge" list for encouraging your Scouts to try "old-school stuff" like semaphore! There is nothing that enrages Wood Badgers more than traditional outdoor skills like semaphore! Kudu

Scout Spirit is the first refuge of adult scoundrels. Kudu

Lisabob writes: "And go run those den meetings yourself if you don't think we women are doing it the right way. But last I checked, without lots of involved moms, there wouldn't be very many packs in existence. " That is precisely the problem with Wood Badge: It has been dumbed down to train people how to run dens and packs. "Maybe think about that before you go insulting us." Maybe you should think about the Patrol Method before you go defending Den Mommies. "And FWIW I know a lot of excellent women leaders of troops and crews as well." If there were a single "excellent" woman leader in these forums, she would step up and praise her Patrols for never camping closer than 100 yards apart or never eating in a dining hall at summer camp. Joni4TA's SM would not be able to play Wood Badge Den Daddy if his Patrols were not so close together. Separate the Patrols and everything else follows. Kudu

OGE, the 300 foot rule is from Baden-Powell's essay "The Object of Camping." World Jamborees are not camping. Kudu

Well, yes: If forced to actually use the Patrol Method, we would need to provide real training rather than business manager Wood Badge. We would actually need those camps and the new outdoor Uniform. If we kicked the Den Mommies and all of their indoor fellow-travelers out of Wood Badge, Scoutmasters could be trained to deliver a 300 foot program worthy of Cub Scouts sticking around for. "300 yards"? The remaining 1% of the BSA problems can be attributed to the lack of reading comprehension among its true-believers. Kudu

99% of all that is wrong with the BSA can be solved by following Baden-Powell's dictum that Patrols never camp closer than 300 feet apart. Kudu So it results that Scouts' camps should be small -- not more than one Troop camped together; and even then each Patrol should have its own separate tent at some distance (at least 100 yards) from the others. This latter is with a view to developing the responsibility of the Patrol Leader for his distinct unit. BP's Outlook October, 1909

Bob White and I are in complete agreement: Wood Badge has nothing to do with the Boy Scout program! Allowing them to wear their pink Neckerchiefs with the Boy Scout Uniform is very misleading and should be strictly forbidden. Kicking the pink out of Scouting would decrease the false impression that holders of the Wood Badge have the best interests of the Patrol Method at heart. As Bob White indicates they see the purpose of Patrols only as a way of organizing manager theory training groups into smaller units for organizational and program management purposes. This conflict of interest has been a total disaster for the Boy Scout program. Kudu

"Suggestive and not protected"? I don't understand what you mean. The secret scripts and "symbolic" stuff in OA is mostly Masonic in origin, not Native American! Only the Native American initiations are covered on the Kudu Net, and Ernest Seton intended those to be public knowledge. If Amangi Mizin is looking for fresh ideas, why not go to the source that first inspired Carroll Edson in the summer of 1915? Ernest Seton's entire Woodcraft Indians handbook, The Birch Bark Roll, can be found at: http://kudu.net/traditional/seton/birch/index.htm Kudu

Bayou Beaver writes: "Have you ever taken the course?" How else would I know that it is a trick question? Kudu

"Have you taken the course?" Danger, Will Robinson, DANGER!!!!!! Don't answer that Joni4TA, it is a trick question Wood Badge is a cult! "Have you taken the course" is the Wood Badge equivalent of Scientology's "Would you like to take a free personality test?" The question is an Unsinkable Rubber Ducky: If you answer that you have not taken the course then cult members will tell you that you can not judge Wood Badge until you have taken the course. If you answer that you have taken the course then they will counter that you did not do so with an "open mind." This accusation of thought-crime is usually the first in a long barrage of ad hominem attacks which reveal the true nature of Wood Badge. Joni4TA writes: "I have seen where half the adults in a Troop are WB trained, and yet the Troop bites eggs major! What's the point of going to that level of training and then seemingly get nothing at all out of it, and not bothering to pass on what you learned to better the youth you work with? Is it just so you can have the beads dangling from your neck and sing your happy gilwell song?" You forgot to mention all of those Baden-Powell pins, portraits, patches, and neckerchief slides that cult members like to pretend represent Baden-Powell's blessing to use Wood Badge to destroy his "Patrol System" and William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method." Joni, is this about your Troop's SM who doesn't believe the boys are capable of running the program? Understand one thing: Wood Badge is the "Uniform Police" of Leadership Development. Like a "Uniform Inspection Sheet," Wood Badge is all about blind obedience to bad policy based on indoor values. The Wood Badge mind is not trained to think objectively about what is good for Scouting. It can only defend what is good for "Leadership Development." I'd say that maybe 1 in every 100,000 people who are Wood Badge trained follow even the most basic tenets of the Patrol System, such as Baden-Powell's observation that for Patrols to function properly they should ALWAYS camp more than 100 yards apart. The reason is that from the very moment in 1972 when "Leadership Development" was introduced as one of the so-called "Methods of Scouting," its mission was to destroy the link between leadership and outdoor skills: In general, Patrol Leader training should concentrate on leadership skills rather than on Scoutcraft Skills. The Patrol will not rise and fall on the Patrol Leader's ability to cook, follow a map, or do first aid, but it very definitely depends on his leadership skill (Scoutmaster's Handbook, Sixth Edition, page 155). Their most recent triumph was to move outdoor skills out of Wood Badge and dumb it down to a Cub Scout level so that indoor decision-makers can move Scouting even further away from outdoor skills and the Patrol Method. Where do you think that every Patrol-busting practice in Scouting, from forcing Scouts to sleep in identical Troop Tents to building million-dollar dining halls comes from? It comes from the theory that Scouting leadership can be learned and practiced independently of Scoutcraft skills and the Patrol Method. To that end the first thing that "Leadership Development" advocates did was to destroy the BSA "Patrol Leader Training" course that taught (by actual practice) Patrol Leaders how to 1) Hold Patrol Meetings without adult supervision, 2) Conduct Patrol Hikes without adult supervision, 3) Camp without adult supervision. Holders of the Wood Badge use the term "Patrol Method" in the same way that the timber industry might use "Defenders of the Ancient Forests" or "League of Old-Growth Preservationists" as names for lobby groups that advocate clear-cutting thousand-year-old trees. Wood Badge is based on a similar "harvesting" of the Patrol Method. When they use the term "Patrol Method" they really mean a "Troop Method" where Patrol Leaders are selected by popularity contests rather than actual leadership ability, and are taught business theory rather than traditional Scouting. Withholding traditional Patrol Leader Training from Patrol Leaders allows Wood Badgers to keep the Patrol Method barefoot and pregnant Without natural ability or practical training, Patrol Leaders tend to camp close together where "helpful" adults can more efficiently fine-tune abstract "skills" like "Understanding the Characteristics and Needs of the Group and Its Members," or whatever trendy "One Minute Manger" theory they happen to be taught between renditions of their "Happy Gilwell" songs. It is often said that Character is what you do when nobody is watching. Likewise, Wood Badge is what Leadership Development advocates say when they are not defending Wood Badge. If the purpose of Wood Badge was to strengthen the Patrol Method rather than destroy it, the course would include practical training on how to counteract the theories that Wood Badge types usually believe: Twenty Stupid Ideas 1) The "Eight Methods of Scouting" are universal to Scouting. 2) The Eight Methods are all of equal value. 4) The purpose of Patrols is to learn "Leadership." 5) The Patrol Method should serve the Leadership Development Method, rather than Leadership Development serving only the very best Natural Leaders (as in the original "Methods of Scouting"). 6) The Scoutmaster's primary job is to teach "Leadership." 7) Term limits, regular elections, and Positions of Responsibility requirements are good for Scouting because they provide Scoutmasters with a constant stream of "Leadership" students. 8) Allowing Patrols to elect bad leaders teaches Scouts a valuable lesson about "popularity contests" by forcing them to suffer under a bad leader. 9) The very best natural Patrol Leaders should be encouraged to step aside to let less-talented Scouts "have their turn at this leadership POR" 10) Summer camp is a vacation from the Patrol Method. 11) The Patrol Method can be practiced in Dining Halls. 12) Meals prepared by professional food service contractors taste better than when a Troop practices the Patrol Method, which is reason enough. 13) Baden-Powell said that "Scouting is a Game With a Purpose." 14) Any indoor boy can earn Eagle Scout without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back because the "Purpose" of Scouting is to "make ethical choices" not to learn outdoor skills. 15) A "Method" is less important than an "Aim," "Mission," or "Vision Statement." 16) Baden-Powell's rejection of classroom instruction is old-fashioned because Citizenship can be better learned through classroom Citizenship Merit Badge instruction than by a challenging outdoor program practiced in Patrols run by the very best Patrol Leader. 17) Scouting teaches Citizenship though elections. 18) Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" is old-fashioned because Scouts need the "Adult Association" gained from taking away from Patrol Leaders control over their Troop's bank account, advancement, and judgment of "Scout Spirit." 19) William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method" is old-fashioned because Scouts need business leadership theory rather than practical training in how to run their Patrols without adults. 20) Human nature has changed in the hundred years since Scouting was invented. Kudu

Ordeal and Vigil is based in part on Ernest Seton's Woodcraft Indian initiations, the details of which are not secret. These and hundreds of Native American ceremonies, songs, dances, and skills can be found at The Kudu Net: http://kudu.net/outdoor/native/index.htm Kudu

I wonder why none of you have trivialized Jesus. A Scout is Reverent.

Cheerful Eagle writes: "Well, I introduced the patrol method to the girls yesterday, and they loved it." It might be helpful to make a distinction between how Boy Scout programs use the terms "Patrol System" (as in the title of this thread) and "Patrol Method" (as in some of the posts). The Patrol System is Baden-Powell's method of Scouting. In this system the Scouts run the Troop. The Court of Honor (not an adult committee) owns the bank accounts and the COH qualifies Scouts for the Tenderfoot through First Class Awards as well as granting older Scouts permission to meet with outside Proficiency Badge examiners. Therefore competency is the number one priority in the selection of Patrol Leaders. When for some reason it is necessary to find a new one, the Scoutmaster is required to meet with that Patrol (or with the Court of Honor) and discuss the possible choices with the understanding that he will only appoint the Patrol's most qualified leader. The Patrol Method was not introduced to the BSA until September 21, 1923 (as "a radical change in the management of troops"). It reached its purest form under William Hillcourt who brought to the BSA from his native Denmark an understanding of how Patrols are supposed to work. Due to the established legacy of strict adult control, Scouts did not control the bank accounts nor the awarding of Scoutcraft Awards (these powers would come to be called "Adult Association"). Under Hillcourt competency became an important priority in the selection of Patrol Leaders but required diplomacy because of Patrol elections, a legacy of the adult control era prior to 1923 in which Patrol Leaders were powerless team captains. Competency during Hillcourt's reign was not the problem that it is now because elections only occurred when a Patrol actually needed a new Patrol Leader. In both B-P's Patrol System and Hillcourt's Patrol Method, the Patrol Leaders run the Patrols and if a Senior Patrol Leader is needed to coordinate their efforts, the Patrol Leaders (not the entire Troop) select him in the Court of Honor. The competency era of the Patrol Method came to end after the retirement of William Hillcourt and the introduction of frequent, regular elections to feed the new "Position of Responsibility" requirements for advancement and the subsequent imposition of abstract "Leadership Development" training which replaced Patrol activities based "Patrol Leader Training." Cheerful Eagle writes: "I though long and hard about how to divide up the girls, and decided I wanted to avoid the "popularity contest" method of determining patrol members (PL's pick members in a choosing up sides kind of process). I ended up divvying scouts more or less according to "geographic" origin. One patrol is mostly from the same school, one is mostly from the same church -- this way they can communicate a bit easier in between meetings." Very Good! What you have done here is make it possible for the Patrols to meet on their own without adult drivers! During the Patrol Method's golden era under Hillcourt, such adult-free activities were both the goal and the content of "Patrol Leader Training." Cheerful Eagle writes: "Next week we will vote for Patrol leaders, and I will have a "open" court of honor so everyone can see what one will be like." You might consider thinking equally "long and hard" about how to avoid the "popularity contest" method of determining Patrol Leaders, just as you did with determining Patrol members. In the Patrol System you would meet with each Patrol to discuss whom they believe to be their most competent leader. If you make the Patrol Leaders' responsibilities clear beforehand, the prospect of this dialogue and the understanding that you make the final determination is enough to focus their nomination on true leadership. In the Patrol Method the selection of Patrol Leader is determined by a vote. If I understand the Girl Scout program correctly you do not have Position of Responsibility (POR) requirements for advancement, nor the imposition of "Leadership Development" as a so-called "Method of Scouting." Therefore you can in the future hold single Patrol elections only when they actually need a new Patrol Leader. These are Hillcourt's suggestions as how to end up with competent Patrol Leaders while working within the Patrol Method's election system. Note the similarity to B-P's Patrol System: The Scoutmaster's Part If a very definitely unfortunate selection seems imminent to the Scoutmaster, through his more mature knowledge of the Scout in question, he may decide to call the Patrol together and give it a talk on the necessary qualifications of a Patrol Leader. This talk may even be so designed as to narrow the choice to the boy the Scoutmaster would like to see chosen. Almost invariably the boys will follow suggestions thus diplomatically given-and will feel that they, after all, did the choosing. A modified election scheme is the method by which two or three boys in each Patrol are nominated by the Scoutmaster or the Troop Leaders' Council and one is elected by a vote of the Patrol. In some Patrols every boy writes out the names of the fellows he thinks are the three best leaders in his group. The results are not made known directly to the Scouts but practically every boy in the Patrol has some kind of rating placed upon him as a leader. At the Troop Leaders' Council meeting, with all the senior and junior leaders present, the ratings are gone over and it is decided just who will be the best leader for the group. In this way both Scouters and Scouts have a share in deciding who the Patrol Leaders shall be and the possibility of embarrassing situations is eliminated. In all instances, the appointment of the Patrol Leader should not immediately follow his election or selection. It should be definitely understood that he has to prove his mettle before the appointment is forthcoming. For this reason it is advisable to institute what might be called a "period of probation" during which the Scout is given the chance to prove that he is worthy of the high office of Patrol Leader. This period may be of one month or six weeks' duration, and should seldom be longer (William Hillcourt, Handbook for Scoutmasters, 3rd Ed., Page 184). Note how important a period of probation was in the competency-based era of the BSA Patrol Method, back when there was no "POR" clock ticking! At the beginning of the probation you might want to have them recite some adaption of the "Patrol Leaders' Creed" so that everyone understands the criteria by which their actions during the trial period will be judged: http://inquiry.net/patrol/leaders_creed.htm Hope that helps! Kudu

"Once saw a "Merit Badge University" where the boys went to a weekend of different MB classes and came away with 5-6 MB's including Cit. in Comm, Nation and World. Did the boys really get anything out of earning??" Citizenship Merit Badges are Fake Scouting, the exact opposite of Baden-Powell's explanation that Scouting is outdoor "Education" not classroom "Instruction." B-P's Scouting is an outdoor game with the single aim of Citizenship learned though camping as a Patrol living the Scout Law ("Education"), as opposed to Citizenship Merit Badges ("Instruction"). Citizenship Merit Badges were designed by the same "exact opposite of Real Scouting" people who divided BSA Troops into Patrols by the Scouts' height, weight, or social class: The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan [Handbook for Scout Masters, First Edition, page 85]. If a Council offers an opportunity to earn all Citizenship Merit Badges in a day, it sounds like the best of all possible worlds to me: Render unto the Council that which is the Council's! Eagle Scout (like King's Scout) should stand for an absolute mastery of outdoor skills. In Traditional Scouting this started with an adult-free 8 mile hike at Second Class, an adult-free overnight 14 mile backpacking Journey for First Class, and from there progressed to increasingly more demanding wilderness Journeys as the final test for every rank. The reason that Scouts can now earn Eagle at 13 is because these true "Boards of Review" (Outdoor Journeys that test mastery of Scoutcraft) have been dumbed out of the BSA. It is now possible for a Scout to earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back: Well within the comfort zone of a Girl Scout! A 13 year-old who has completed all the requirements for Eagle but is told that he must wait until 14 because Eagle represents values that he can't understand has been cheated twice: Once by a program more concerned with "making ethical choices" than with the practical Scout Law values that come from the rigors of a rugged outdoor program, and then cheated again by paper adults whose un-Trustworthiness and dis-Obedience to this watered-down program proves that Parlour Scouting does not produce true Scouting values. Kudu