John-in-KC

Frankly, What I would like to see? - A man or woman who, after college, enters a public service profession at entry leveland spends at least three years in the trenches: Police, Fire, Paramedic, Armed Forces, teaching, or foreign service. - A man or woman, who after initial public service, returns to graduate school, and completes postgrad professional qualification: That adds Doctors and certain ordained ministers to the list. - A man or woman, who has lived and worked outside the United States for at least four years. Take off the "''MURICA: THE ONLY WAY!" blinders, dagnabbit. We don''t have a monopoly on good ideas. - Finally, someone who shows with the actions of their life that they "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." Dreaming? Probably. My desires? CERTAINLY. Of course, the current Constitutional standard is exactly what CP said.

I spent my Sept RT offsite from my home District, I was out with my folks in Nevada... it''s actually an LDS-strong District. There are matters of what your local Bishop and your Stake President have as a vision for Scouting in the area. From discussions, there is a far more hierarchical structure for adults than most Chartered Partners and units have. BTW, COR selecting leaders? Sounds like the Scouting system of leader selection to me! If there''s a vacancy in the CC... the leader of the support side of Scouting, then ask to be given the responsibility. Make sure, though, before you do, that you understand your local level vision and goals for Scouting! Active listening will save you agony!

Highcountry, When was the last time unit Youth Leader Training was offered? When was the last time a Scout went to Council level Youth leader training? Are any of your Scouts Den Chiefs? Are they trained? Do any of your Scouts have known Special Needs? Do your Scouts earn Merit Badges outside of Camp, the Troop, or large group functions (ie Merit Badge Days)?

Two comments, inspired by Beavah and EagleinKY: If the SPL refuses to change, explicitly, and becomes a hindrance to the Troop, then I think the SM owes the Troop a chance for them to demonstrate their rebellion. In a different thread, we talked about how Adults don''t get to vote "No Confidence" in the CC and CM. The youth may well be justified in asking for a vote of no confidence in their own SPL. Just because we do not use explicit votes of confidence in US parliamentary procedure doesn''t mean they do not exist. If the SPL, in performance (or non-performance) of his office becomes a hazard to safety of another Scout, especially physically but perhaps emotionally, then the SM has to weigh the consequences of immediate intervention.

Each Scout has to do a hike plan for the 20-miler. Why are you trying to do this as a Troop Activity? 20 miles at 3MPH is 6 hours 40 minutes just doing "one foot in front of the other." WHEN in the spring? The more daylight you have, the better off you will be. I agree, training hikes are vital to the success of this major muscle group hike. Spend lots of time prepping and checking shoes and socks too. Urban concrete has less give than dirt on a trail, so if you go in-city, look out for shin splints too. I''d work on developing the Tenderfeet''s strength this year with 5 and 10 milers, and let them consider going for the 20 miler next year at the very earliest

Bottom lines up front: Would you be accepted by the current Committee, Cubmaster and other DLs in a role as "Pack Advisor?" Is this "tilting at windmills"? Reading your writing, and not having the full backstory, I sense there is interpersonal conflict amongst the adults. If the grown-ups are pulling in multiple directions, sooner or later the fabric of the unit will yield. Again, using only your writings, I sense this has happened. I think it''d be more appropriate for the COR to call in the Commissioner Service and ask him to conduct a unit inventory. Let''s see if we can find the root problem: It may be recruiting, it may be program, it may be an adult who cannot/will not "play nice." Two of those issues can be fixed with adult training. The third is a bigger challenge. (BTW, if the COR is cross-qualified as a commish, he/she can do this). Pete, if you come in as a 3d party, you will be considered "the COR''s spy." I can almost promise that. Acceptance? Odds of that are pretty low. There''s a better, lower risk to you (and your bride) alternative to what you proposed. Let''s find it!

This goes all the way back to "what does active mean?" Mentor, train, mentor, coach, train more... This is the Scoutmasters first responsibility. I hope unit JLT (old curriculum) or unit NYLT (new curriculum) was given the SPL, ASPL, and PLC immediately after election. Yes, there is a hierarchy; in any organization there''s a hierarchy. At the end of the day, though, the PLC is supposed to reach a consensus. Over the years, I''ve liked the idea that the SPL votes to break a tie, and that is how the PLC gives him deference. At the SM level, revisit what responsibilities the SPL has. If he''s got a lot on his plate, look at how to share that with his ASPLs. Look at how the Quartermaster and Scribe can be self-managing / functioning. Joe, finally, I''d tell your PLC, in a meeting, and the Troop as a whole, in a SM Minute: A Boy Scout Troop is not, and never was, a platoon or company of soldiers. It''s not the military. If it were, they''d be fined healthy amounts for being out of uniform, for being late, for backtalking a leader. They don''t want to be junior military. Trust me.

Eagledad wrote: Holy cow, how does your son play football and march at the same time? Im sure you have a logical answer, but I''''m imagining your son making a fine tackle on the quarterback then throwing his helmet on the sideline and grabbing his instrument to run and join the band for halftime Since EagleSon has been in the marching band, I''ve known no fewer than 4 HS students who do exactly that: Play ball, at halftime, they march with the band! Thankfully EagleSon is not one of these. Of the 4, 1 was a senior last year and is gone, 1 was a top flight tubist, but went to football only for his 11th grade year, 1 dropped out of football for his senior year and is now band only, and 1 just made the team this year, and he''s finding it Hades. There are also cheerleaders and yell leaders who are in our band! To funscout: I''d rather have them at meeting, working with their patrols, than have them not be welcome. PLC and SM/ASM folk should be encouraging, not berating. Good hunting with them

1) Get with the SPL. Stop the conversations. Use a SM Minute to back up the SPL on this. 2) Contact the COR. Do that soonest. You want the COR''s backing. 3) Conduct non-advancement SM Conferences and BORs. You''ve got Proud TF and SPLs input. Gather information from the rest. Use active listening techniques. Be empathetic and sympathetic, but don''t commit. 4) SM, CC, and COR meet, share info and make a decision. 5) If the decision is no, do exactly as CalicoPenn described. If you want highest cover, ask the COR to be the bearer of bad news; he represents the values of the chartering organization. 6) Finally, keep your UC and DE in the loop. Time is not on your side!

Highcountry, Sad to say, the symptom is that your Troop has a distinct minority of Scouts attending campouts. What I described as a "special event" (in our case, it was a cross-state trip to the St Louis Zoo and Six Flags over St Louis), sounds like a routine event for your Troop. A Camporee is routine program, not a major special event. I cannot tell you what the root cause of your Troops challenges. That is something your PLC and you, working together, are going to have to discover.

There are a few times when Troop cooking makes sense: 1 Patrol, 8-10 boys, yes, it makes sense. Special trip, the trailer isn''t going, cube in the cars matters, relatively few boys are going (max 15 or so), it might make sense, but it''s a PLC decision working with the SM here. 80 boys? No. That doesn''t make sense. I''ve been a mess officer for an Army dining facility. 80 is institutional cooking, and that requires its own recipes and procedures independent of learning basic cookery!

You brought up something interesting, and I''m going to have to look into it. As a Veteran, I served in the wrong places at the wrong times (Germany in the 80s). FDA considers me a risk for carrying variant Creuzfeld-Jakob''s Disease (aka mad cow), so I am permanently deferred as a blood donor. I''m treated the same as a gay person... out of the pool. I wonder if the same restrictions apply to organ donations, and if so, to which organs?

As to 2) Sounds like you took a Rump PLC, and got feedback from the Rump PLC. Feedback is a Gift. What Barry said: Scoutmaster must be the example in all things. This includes "choose your battles wisely." Is uniforming the most important Scouting issue in your Troop right now? If it is, it''s time to battle. If it''s not, then use all your resources where they matter the most. The cost of doing business with the Patrol Method is that if they make a bad call, you let them run with it until the 2d/3d order consequences get big enough that you have to refocus the PLC. Yes, I understand uniform isn''t supposed to be voted on, but that''s what you let them do, in fact. Your best course of action at the moment may be to simply be an example of correct uniforming yourself.

I think most of us here could do with reading Lisa''s post slowly and carefully before continuing this thread! Her point about teaching boys to "choose their battles wisely" out of adults mandating a broken starch class A uniform rings very true. Folks should also go back, reread Beavah''s post (just ahead of Lisa''s) and concentrate on the next-to-last paragraph. Together, these two bits of writing say much of what I want to say to the Uniform Method of Scouting. As to the fabric, fit, finish, and quality of specific articles of clothing, well, I will leave that to lie... for now.

Beavah captured my thoughts. If the youth GROW and DEVELOP, and if they have FUN... then we who provide program have done our job. The object of the exercise is to help a young man or woman prepare for adulthood. Everything we do must resonate back to that ultimate purpose... it''s why we have the Game with a Purpose!

Scout comes to SM a little perplexed. Scout to SM: Mr Smith, I didn''t get everything done for Citizenship in the Nation at Merit Badge Day. SM to Scout: That''s OK, Billy, why don''t you call Mr Jackson, his number is xxx-xxxx, ask him for an appointment, and have him call me. Here''s a merit badge blue card, (scribble signature), do you still have your application from MB Day? Scout: Yes, Mr Smith. SM: That''s great Billy, take both of those to your first appointment with him. OK? Scout: OK... goes away smiling... Just like starting a MB from scratch, the selection of a Counselor and the initiation of a MB app (blue card or whatever) is the right and proper end of unit involvement. In the case above, the SM, being a stout fellow, is glad to call his friend, share a couple of laughs and war stories, and alert the MBC that Billy is working a partial from an MB day... As an advancement person, I shouldn''t see that app until there''s a final card for the Advancement Report to Council. That''s my long and short, folks.

We''re a BIG!! district... 2 counties, 55 packs and 53 Troops. We have a District Director, a Senior DE and a DE. They have a tremendous crew of volunteers who believe in the Outdoors method. We just spent a day at an area campground. The District hosted a new Cub Scout Family Overnight. A Troop did Campfire. Volunteers held a cracker barrel. This morning, other volunteers cooked breakfast (french toast and sausage), and milk/juice were donated by an area dairy. We had model rockets, a music activity (these kids all earned their Music belt loop at that!), frisbee golf, a craft... my station was Dutch Oven Dump Cake! Got to show parents how easy dump cake can be! When the last Cubs and Parents left, our DE''s looked tired and happy. We had planned for 200, and we brought in 400. For that matter, we were all tired and happy. Having the DE, together with the Chairman and the Commish cheerlead other volunteers is the essential activity. It''s amazing what happens when you (Woodbadgers repeat after me...) "Use All Your Resources!"

Gunny, Good advice from Beavah. Take stock of your unit. Figure out your vision, goals, and steps to make each happen. Leverage your PLC. Choose your engagements. Remember the two fundamentals of offense and defense: Offense chooses time and means of attack. Defense chooses the place. And keep having fun

I ride Amtrak a fair bit, and I mod an Amtrak board elsewhere on the web. Below are some sample dining car menus from Amtrak. While the food can be good, the price can be quite dear, especially for 11-20 year olds doing group travel. Beyond the dining cars, Amtrak lounges have assorted nukables. Again, the prices can be dear! When I took a trip to St Louis in February 2007, a bratwurst set me back $4. You can bring your own food aboard, but understand: Amtrak will not provide refrigerated storage (bring your own small coolers) and Amtrak will not let you heat the food in their ovens, be they attended or be they available to passengers! Here, then are the sample menus as of June 2006 (most recent available): http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/menus/SampleMenu1_6-1-2006.pdf http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/menus/SampleMenu2_6-1-2006.pdf http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/menus/SampleMenu3_6-1-2006.pdf

OH!!!! One important thing: Depending on age, if your BSA Class II/III Physical is not current, get thee to a physician before Weekend 1. (Class II: Under 40, 3 years duration) (Class III: 40 and up, 1 year duration)

UPDATE: Chicago Union Station has a food court, I am told "everything from Mickey D''s to raw sushi!" Still working the menus.

Have to agree. Think about Music merit badge for a moment. How can you motivate a kid starting middle school band? If he''s a Scout, most of the MB is available on the trail for him! Selected from: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/32215/mb/mb-MUSC.html 1) Sing or play a simple song or hymn chosen by your counselor, using good technique, phrasing, tone, rhythm, and dynamics. Read all the signs and terms of the score. Uhh... Play song or hymn... what are school band kids learning to do? PLAY INSTRUMENTS 3)Do TWO of the following: a) Attend a live performance, or listen to three hours of recordings from any two of the following musical styles: blues, jazz, classical, country, bluegrass, ethnic, gospel, musical theater, opera. Describe the sound of the music and the instruments used. Identify the composers or songwriters, the performers, and the titles of the pieces you heard. If it was a live performance, describe the setting and the reaction of the audience. Discuss your thoughts about the music. Uhhh... BAND CONCERT ANYONE? c) Serve for six months as a member of a school band, choir, or other local musical group, or perform as a soloist in public six times. Uhhh... RIGHT HERE... SCHOOLWORK IS A PART OF THE REQUIREMENT! So, you clear the major performance requirements of the badge with SCHOOLWORK. As long as the schoolwork is task-appropriate, why not let a Counselor accept it. Now, I do agree with ScoutNut: The decision belongs to the counselor only, not the SM or a TC "merit badge coordinator."

Depending on where you are, the first weekend will probably be in Council-supplied summer camp tentage/cots. Bring weather-appropriate gear, and whatever is needed to make your cot comfortable! Our Course Director sent us a packing list...

Last night (yes, a Thursday game) Eagle son''s HS had a football game. Noticed with Band, Cheerleaders, Dance, Color Guard... they didn''t change to uniforms til they were gathering to get on the busses. They changed back to ordinary clothes as soon as they could after getting back from the game. Short version: Uniforming may not be a BSA only issue, it may be a social structure issue... Food for thought.

Venividi, Part of the problem lies with all the added expenses of getting a child out the door these days. Pop Warner, Scouting, Band, HS teams, Job''s Daughters, MDA, ACS, ABC-123, you name it, someone else wants your money for fundraising. That doesn''t even count God''s firstfruits call on your income. My manager at my office finally put a blunt stop to candy boxes, kids coming in "in uniform" to sell popcorn, wreaths, GS cookies, ad infinitum, flyers on the bulletin board, whatever form it took: Fundraising at the office is a dischargable offense. My kid, your kids, someone elses'' kids all live in two blocks of each other. The neighborhoods are saturated. I see the POV of parents who cut to the chase and just cut a check. They assess the time value of the products as not worth the effort, they''d rather cut the check.