John-in-KC

GW, The requirement to charter is found in the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America ... This is one of those threads where I wish Bob White was still around. Sign.

So, if a Scout comes running in to a BOR, all out of breath and says, "Sorry I'm late but I had to stop by Mr. Smiths house and get my Camping blue card signed," would we say, "Sorry but that hasn't been entered into Scout Net"? NO. The advancement BOR doesn't begin until the SM Conference is done. The advancement SM Conference shouldn't be held until all the requirements are completed. I'd accept the boy for his SM conference with a blue card signed off. If he's handing to me at the BOR, I'd adjourn the Board and have a Heart to Heart talk with the SM about why he's signing off on conferences for kids who didn't have things done. OTOH, if the SM had talked to me in advance (he's going out of town on business), that'd be a whole other story.

LH, OK No, to your last... that's crying over spilt milk. It's something worth discussing directly with the MBCs in question downstream. I do like order more than disorder. At the same time, I've seen the consequences where the adults didn't do their tasks as regards the youth. I'm learning, slowly but surely, to err in favor of the Scout, if there is any shadow of a good reason so to do.

LH, First, I don't think our understanding of the advancement method is a game. For the kids, learning should be fun. For us adults, making sure we support them is the difference between "Man Scouts" and Scouters. If I cannot trust a youth not to bypass me when he's looking to start an MB (and BTW I encourage Scouts to go out-of-troop for MBs), then how can I trust him in other things. I'll accept what he's done, but after a couple of rounds, it's fairly obvious to me that he, his parents, and I do not see eye to eye on the Values Method: He belongs in a MB mill, not my Troop. Once the MB is in, though, it's my job to get it to they system. As far as "local take" goes, I've found my DAC to be a sterling fellow, who is pretty dead-on to the mark on advancement. Usually, when I call him, I'm asking for a sanity check. He's validated me a couple of times, dialed me back more than once, and said "you can go farther" more than once.

LH, Much of what you say has merit. Remember, for those of us who use the Judeo-Christian ethic, death in general and the taking of life in particular is a consequence of the Fall in the Garden. WE, humanity, disobeyed God on the one thing He told us "don't do." The rest are consequences. To Merlyn: To modify a quote by Frederick the Great on my own professional branch of the Artillery: War is the final argument of kings. War in general isn't right either. It's also a consequence. As long as we are on this earth, though, when our leaders send us to war, we rely on them to decide the justice of the war jus ad bello and the justice within the war jus im bellum. To quote a line from the movie Luther, spoken by the Elector, "and if you decide to fight, you must also decide to WIN!" To B: I agree that the Decalogue is a model of man's relationship to his God. Will you agree that a fair bit of the Law is about the relationship of society, and of individuals within the society, to the Godhead?

Simply encourage him to re-engage, even if it's no more than paying dues for now (that assumes his position and children are in Cubbing).

LH, Given what you presented, there is two things I can legitimately do: - Validate each MB as having been done with a "registered counselor for the merit badge" (ACP&P, text box u/r corner p 26). - Contact the District Advancement Chairman and get the local take on this quote from BSA Requirements #33215: "Pick a Subject. Talk to your Scoutmaster about your interests. Read the requirements of the merit badges you think might interest you. Pick one to earn. Your Scoutmaster will give you the name of a person from a list of counselors. These counselors have special knowledge in their merit badge subjects and are interested in helping you. (snip of Scout Buddy System) "Call the Counselor. Get a signed merit badge application from your Scoutmaster. Get in touch with the merit badge counselor and tell him or her that you want to earn the merit badge. The counselor may ask to meet you to explain what is expected of you and to start helping you meet the requirements." If "Scoutmaster first" is part of the required process for the MB, as I believe it is, then I'll use the situation as a learning point: ONCE. See below: - Finally, I would have a long, and not necessarily cheerful, SM conference with the young man. The main question is how am I such an ogre that the Scout doesn't want to come to me to start a MB? I'll talk about being Trustworthy and Loyal. In 90% of the cases, it'll be "Sorry Mr John, I goofed. I'll remember the next time." For the 15% where it happens again, the follow-on SM conference may well include Mom and/or Dad, and will be along the lines of "let's find you a Troop where Trustworthiness and Loyalty are less of issues." Does that make sense LH?

OK, I did misinterpret. What's your position in the Lodge? If an Adviser, how has the LEC been delegated authority and responsibility to make this a grand evening? I do have to agree with Scott, though, a solid year-round program of lodge activity will be a better booster of attendance than a year-end push. Induction weekends, lodge activities during Scout Camp, perhaps a Lodge based OA Service Trek at Philmont for the over-16s... each event builds buzz in the younger Arrowmen, and helps the 17-20 year olds stay involved.

LH, Even if GW wull not, I will play, because I think we can get a good summary from this: If you are saying the badge was earned at the moment the MBC signed the card that is one thing. Based on my understanding of ACP&P, this indeed is the moment the Scout earns the MB. If you say the badge was earned when the SM approved the document that is another thing. The Scoutmaster has his vote is on the front end, to 1) Assign an MB Counselor, 2) accept the Counselors at the Scout Camp, or 3) accept the MB counselor in any sort of group "forum/university/college" setting. He does not have to sign the card, he can state that Scout ABC is not ready to undertake the MB at that forum. His responsibility on the back end is to keep the approved MB app moving to data reduction and data entry into BSA ScoutNet. He does this together with the Troop Committee advancement person. If you want to say that the badge was earned when someone keyed the information into the Scout Net data base that is again another thing. "You do not exist, Winston, you never existed."-O'Brien, speaking in Orwell, 1984. "The job is not done until the paperwork is complete." FINAL ENTRY OF THE DATA TO THE BSA SCOUTNET DATABASE IS NOT THE SCOUT'S RESPONSIBILITY, this is the Committee's responsibility. The data must make it to ScoutNet, or BSA and the local Council will not affirm the advancement. This is our responsibility as Scouters... otherwise we are failing the Scouts we serve. Trying to mix and match terminology doesn't work if the objective is to answer the initial question. When is the badge considered earned? LH, have I answered for you what I believe ACP&P BSA #33088 says? YIS John (This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

In my council, there are no fewer than three different merit badge applications: - Blue trifold, whatever the BSA number is, for most "during the year" MBs. - White singleton, used at our Scout Reservations during the summer season. The "Lodge Records" are the backup document, and are maintained at the Council office for I believe 5 years. - A Merit Badge (shudder) college sponsored by an area college uses a two-part form. The Scoutmaster approval is the submission of the application and the fees.

Another duplicate post. If OGE, you or E or FScouter see this, zap it pls.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

Ed, on this one I agree with you. God is. The bright line of right and wrong is. Those are eternal. Our perceptions of those are temporal. And yet, Jesus laid it all out... B hit part of it above, I hope he won't object if I quote both the OT and NT verses: From Deuteronomy 6 (NIV): 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Then, from Mark 12: 8 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." One of the things I've observed now across a few years is God does keep correcting his people, and He does keep working to correct error in this life. In the meantime, our task is to listen, learn, love and act. Happy Thanksgiving 2007

Here's my take. However the SM informs the MB Counselor that Scout X is ready to start abc MB is program in nature, and the Scout is part of what happens. However the MB Counselor informs the SM that Scout X has completed abc MB is program in nature, and the Scout is part of what happens. How the SM and the Troop Committee capture the information, for the sake of Scout X, get it to the Council Service Center, and get the info into ScoutNet (which with few exceptions is the only record BSA cares about) is support in nature, and should be transparent to the Scout. Our job as Scouters is to make this transparent. It's not as though he's piloting a B-52 from Minot to Barksdale with the wrong weapons pod, and some emergency action officer falls on his sword drafting a BENT SPEAR report. Usually, beyond the learning, the Scouts share of the burden is to get notification from the MBC to the troop.

Rob, Welcome back. If I'd not had a lot of leadership psych along the way, thanks to the Army, much of what WB teaches would have been knew. As it was, it was a useful review of plowed and fertilized ground. The most important take-away I had from the course was the network I gained. I'm in a large, active council; I see many of the same Scouters activity in and activity out. We all love serving youth, that's why we campmaster, commish, oa advise, work in our troops and crews, do district rt, district committee... the list keeps going. New people bring different perspectives on an array of issues. I went out-of-council for my WB, and discovered close to 100 new perspectives ... from folks throughout KS, NE, and MO. To me, it was worth the money. You, and you alone, are the one who can judge both beforehand and after if it will be or was worth the money to you. I wish I could give you an eloquent answer; I cannot. I can simply say "I learned something, met new people and had fun." That's more than I've gotten out of most trainings in industry. Good hunting to your own decision.

EagleSon does not have the neatest handwriting. He's pretty good at computing though. I no longer have a typewriter. It's imo as dead as the dodo. Fifteen months ago, National/NESA did not have a "fill in the blank" online eagle app. Using powerpoint, I made one.

LH, With respect, the last 3 Eagles in my unit used the downloadable from NESA, and they were accepted. Heavens to Betsy, when it was EagleSons turn a year ago, I downloaded the then non-fillable pdfs, backgrounded them to powerpoint, and had EagleSon do his app that way. Council accepted it. Maybe not yours, but mine does.

I found TM to get the job done. I didn't use their advancement report, though. Someone here sent me an rtf shell of an advancement report; I cut, pasted, and rearranged the info from a TM dump, and emailed it to our SM... he worked a mile from the Council Office, so he would run over on lunch hour and fill out awards. I found giving Council the BSA number was a blessing in helping them manage the youths in question.

To spinnaker: Read Beavah's posts. Follow them to the letter. To others here: The Eagle App is now downloadable (AND, on a 1 time basis) fillable from the National Eagle Scout Association website: http://www.nesa.org/trail/58-728.pdf I strongly recommend printing it on a color printer

FScouter, As I've said before elsewhere, Council Service Centers aren't perfect. I was unable, across 3 years of being a unit advancement coordinator, to get a MB OFF EagleSons record... one I know for a fact he never earned. I submit there is a legitimate need for an adult to help an Eagle Candidate negotiate the rapids of getting the Eagle app ready. Is there really added value to the Scout in teaching him the lesson the bureaucracy lives to kick back items not perfectly completed? If the Scout is ready, if from the Scoutmaster's perspective he is qualified to stand his Eagle BOR, then yes, we should help him get through the administrative hurdle. If that's what you meant by having a Man Scout gatekeeper, so be it. I qualify. If you were talking about those who would re-test the young man, I agree with you 100%. Our job is to move them along to adulthood. That's a good thing, I think.

As I read the "What would you change about WB" thread, I'm coming to a few conclusions: - We volunteers, and many of us have some fair experience, aren't sure the current Scouter training model is working very well. - We have some significant schisms still between "Old School" and "New School," and we're willing to gratuitously insult each others generation. - We probably have the expertise in education, leadership pysch, and skills development to horizontally and vertically integrate the training from the 7 year old Tiger to the 21 year old Venturer. So here's the exercise: Let's take all the existing trainings off the table. How would you design the training spectrum for your program? Would you integrate across programs, or would you be sequential? WHY? There is one guideline: You cannot change the advancement programs of any youth program. You must accept the current 2007 requirements and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures in designing and implementing your training. It'll be interesting to see what folks think for "what right looks like."

Uhhh... I'm a little past 21, and it seems to me coming to Adviser-age folk for the "good-idea" fairy is a last resort, not a first. BTW, it's the 3d week of November. If you're just now thinking about Lodge Banquet, I hate to say it, but you're probably behind the power curve! - Start right after Fall Fellowship! - GET YOUR CHAPTERS INVOLVED. Have each Chapter run a game. - Get your LEC committees involved. Ask them to run a game relative to their particular functional task. - Got plans to go to NOAC? Ask them to put together something, both in terms of the last trip and planning for the next one. - Older (15-19 year old Arrowmen) might like to attend with their girlfriends. Have you thought of something to make this a fun date an Arrowman can take a young lady to? - How much does the Lodge do in support of the Scout Reservation? Got a big multimedia slideshow on the fun the Camp Staff has? I'll let some others chime in now. I do wish you well, but you and your LEC are going to have to work very hard to make this years banquet a good one.

"thorns and roses" is a discussion. Scouts on expedition at Philmont use it DAILY. Each Scout has to, in turn, talk about what he sees going on that is right, and what he sees going on that is wrong. Some programs have a rule of 2 rights for every wrong! Often, a spirited discussion begins, and some truly creative solutions to the thorny challenges come on the table. A couple of days later, there may be a rose where once there was a thorn.

Recovering from ROFLMAO: I think I figured it out, Lisa!!! QUALITY ________________ (insert organization in the blank) is the Man Scout's MERIT BADGE!!!!

Joni, First, someplace behind your Council's "Cedar Badge" youth leadership training is a Curriculum. My best guess is that it's the BSA National Youth Leader Training. That's a week-long course. The best person to provide you that answer is on your Council's Professional Service: The Reservation Director of whichever Scout Reservation actually hosts your course. I agree with Lisa: 200 bucks isn't always easy to lay out for any training, be it corporate (my firm runs reimbursement only, not pre-pay), or personal. I will tell you the IRS treats WB as any other skill development course: It can be deductible. I recommend you contact your Council and ask to find a Scouter who is a CPA in your local area; he/she can give you accounting advice. At the same time, emb021 is right: I've taken worse leadership training in the business world. Where I took the course, we have an advantage, several of the key volunteers do academic psychology for their day jobs. I will tell you to take a week of leadership pysch a la Wood Badge at my day job, I'd lay out about 2000 bux! Good hunting and Good Scouting.

OGE, I'm not sure you need 2 1/2 hours. I think if the CD were to write each student and say "Part of Wood Badge is giving back to Scouting through service. Expect to design several service projects during the two weekends of WB; expect to implement them in the 18 months after you complete your two weekends."