JoeBob

Hey BasementDweller, Timber Rattlers and Copperheads are known to enjoy an occasional mouse. Was either native to that section of trail? (Never saw copperheads up on the ridges where most shelters seem to be.) Sorry those anal orifices made you feel unwelcome. (You know the rule about 'no firearms' is just for lawyers, right?)

YPT - 20 minutes online. 45 minutes if you're from Penn State...

Schiff: I can see the Catch 22. 1- Lower standards so that everyone can be an Eagle with a teenie bit of work, in order to attract more members. (Low Standards & High Numbers) - or - 2- Keep the highest standard high for a competent outdoor program that is not super attractive to the Nintendo generation. (High Standards & Low Numbers) Either way, National is going to spriral into the ground. So, do we want to go out as 'Cheesy Boy Scouts'; or fade away as a demanding program for extrordinarily motivated youth? If LOCAL Scouting can keep our program quality up, we can survive just fine with smaller numbers. Having to overcome a national bad reputation in the future (after too many 'once and done' scouts make headlines by getting in too deep) will make local scouting harder. (Did I just argue that I want National to go ahead and fail as quickly as possible so as to not damage the publicly perceived integrity of BSA?) I can hear it now: "Boy Scouts really really need all the gay men that they can get. We're not afraid to ask for directions!"

If my wife finds out about 'ventering' trousers, she's not gonna let me wear anything else. Is there an option for a filter?

Let's assume the worst. One of the boys dies from exposure. Does the parent's lawsuit for wrongful death have merit? The public perception of an Eagle Scout is that he is a master of important Scout skills. Since that is no longer true, is it not the responsibility of Irving to re-educate the public as to the new definition of what an Eagle is? "An Eagle Scout read a compass and map, once. And he navigated out of the parking lot, too. We have the paperwork here, so you cannot hold us responsible for your son's death." I fear we will eventually be sued out of existence.

Even in the 70's the shelters were not a pleasant place to overnight. Beaten down ground, dusty and critter happy. You were afraid to go behind a tree within 50 yards for fear of who else had been there recently. Those folks did you a favor, although I'm sure it didn't feel like it at the time. 10 people makes 'Backcountry' a population center. 2 used to my favorite number for camping. Now it's 4.

I'm bemused by the whole argument. Scout skills are not 'once and done' in traditional, old time, scouting. Important Scout skills should be CUMULATIVE. Can anyone argue practically why not? 30 years ago this discussion would have been booted down to Daisy Scouts (appologies to the ladies). This is what happens when you let a bunch of management consultants write your leadership courses. You get a bunch of techniques for dodging responsibility, and filling out paperwork. Regarding the Eagle scout lost in NH: he was once and done. When those parents trusted their children to a former Eagle leader, they expected to have someone who could find their way out of a paper bag looking out for their kids. I think BSA failed them dramatically by selling cheap Eagle Scout badges to get BSA numbers up.

"JoeBob's last post, I see nothing but jeering and heckling" Makes me glad I didn't post what I REALLY thought! JoeBob

Details: "At 1:15 p.m., the three hikers left the main group at the summit of Straightback Mountain" "cell phone to call another member of the troop at 2:37 p.m" They got lost after walking downhill (away from the summit) for 82 minutes. Civil Twilight at Lincoln NH on Nov 6th was at 5:02. They had 145 minutes to walk back uphill to find themselves once again at the summit. Uphill? Too much work, let's call in lost... "equipped with some water, snacks, a map and a compass" Morse Code? Pilot One: "Ralph, do you see flashing off a cell phone cover down there?" Pilot Two: "Yeh, that flashing seems to be too rythmic to be that bear that stole Ranger Bob's cell phone last week. Must be the lost Boy Scouts..." What I guess I find most distressing about this thread is the number of Scouters who are trying to portray this episode as a victory for good Scout training. Have we really sunk so low? My vision of Scouting involves rescuing lost city-slickers through the implementation of superior woodsmanship. Scouts should not be the butt of jokes about not being able to tell the difference between uphill and downhill.

Fish, I used one of these for whitewater camping for3-4 years: http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___41118?cm_vc=PDPZ2 $40, including the roof. I used two short sticks to spread the top, permanently attached. The Bliss Hammock you were looking at tests to 350, which is good! But I think you may have to buy the rain cover separately? (6x8 polytarp $3.50... http://www.rei.com/product/798413/blue-poly-tarp-8-x-6 )

Anybody else wishing they lived in Iowa? I've never had a bunch of female camping afficionados come begging after me to go to the woods with them. (Good thing Mrs. JoeBob doesn't read this forum...)

I'm with OGE. The relevant text from his link is: "coed overnight activities even those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA." But since you are describing a BSA Troop, which I presume is NOT COED, I can think of no reference requiring a man. We are superfluous!

Having gotten over my intial dismay, I would bet that these 14 year old scouts were brought up on GPS. What are the odds that 31 year old computer programmer William Sherwin had let his orientation skills atrophy in favor of a smart phone? (Of course it would have been fun to be a bug on the trees at his OA Ordeal...) I worry about our troops if/when China takes out the satelites.

Men, The internet bites. Since it's public knowledge, if you look a little bit, you'll find that the lost leader was an Eagle Scout and OA member: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/william-sherwin/2/a1/839 Scroll to the bottom. Times are changing... Editted to add that he achieved Eagle in 1997. I guess times had already changed 14 years ago. (This message has been edited by JoeBob)

So, assume the 31 year-old leader had to spend the night lost on the mountain with the two 14 year-old scouts. Would it still be a YP violation if he huddled by himself for warmth? What is the technique for cutting down pine branches with your cell phone to make a shelter? How many branches does it take to make 'separate accomodations'? And how do you tape the branches back in the morning to be sure that you're following LNT? Okay, I'm being nasty. Sorry. What level of incompetent boob gets lost in one hour, and can't backtrack where you've just walked? I can't control my incredulity.(This message has been edited by joebob)

Calico: "I see we have a bunch of Scouters with little experience hiking in mountainous terrain." Does hiking the AT from Georgia to Maine count? How about leading patrols all over the Cascades and Ft. Lewis, in the dark? Did a little bit of ice climbing out of the Harvard Mountaineering Cabin (which smelled really bad!) in the White Mountains, but I admit that I have never hiked in NH when there wasn't snow on the ground. You got me! These were obviously well trained scouts and leaders who represent BSA's present approach very well. I should be proud to be associated with them! Mea culpa, mea culpa...

Eagle92: I KNEW there was another 't' in 'crotchety'. I just couldn't figure out where to put it. Thanks!

Thanks Guys, You won't find me close to the patrol campfire. My stomach can't handle what they eat... I just feel a little guilty that I have NOT been there for my boy while he was a Cub, because I was occupied elsewhere with the unit. On one pack camping trip, we stayed 2 hours after everyone else has gone home, because I hadn't seen him for two days... Our parent troop is growing feeble. The boys play games for 60 minutes and work on badges for 30. Retention is not good. They get in a bit of trouble here and there with other troops for 'unscoutlike' behaviour. The leadership is lame. (WebIIs are supposed to go camping with the troop sometimes this Fall. I've been asking for a date for three months. Still no invitation... We had to use dynamite to get someone to attend crossover last year to accept the rising scouts. Etc.) So my choices are: 1- Drop my boy off and take myself hunting. 2- Accept COR and hold leaders feet to the fire. (I'm too old and crochetty to be SM.)

That's okay! Lost with a map and compass; 200 yards from the main trail. "Around 2:30 p.m., the hikers called another troop member to say they were lost." "State police sent a helicopter outfitted with infrared technology." WoodBadge 22nd Century will probably incorporate this scenario to demonstrate EDGE. E - Enter the woods. D - Don't have a clue G - Get your head outta your a** or it's going to be E - Expensive... Leaders don't need woodscraft. They can practice conflict resolution, instead. Mommy!

Packsaddle, I've been watching your recent posts closely. I feel your pain! My situation is akin to yours, but you've had much more patience than I. As a CM with a 5th grade son; I'm facing the choice of reclaiming my time next year, or moving up to the COR position with the means to correct the problem. I get manic swinging from hot to cold. My boy is really fired up to make Eagle, and his Webelos buddies' dads are lobbying hard. I'd like to get our troop back on track to make his experience better. But is it worth the hassle wth local politics and national hoop jumping? Can I really improve our local scouting experience enough to justify the time it will take to do it? Will I get to spend more time with my son as a COR than I have as a DL and CM? I feel the role of 'helicopter dad' pulling on me.

Beavah, et.all; I think the Bank Bailouts were terribly wrong. The banks should have been allowed to fail, so that the market could correct without government interference. Criminal Charges? What law was broken? The execs are just using the convoluted laws that the Feds set up. Flat tax / Fair Tax anyone? If stupid legislating could be criminalized, could we lock up Dodd Frank? (Tangental rant: You think Eric Holder, whitewasher of voter fraud, prosectutor of states enforcing immigration laws, perpetrator of Fast and Furious; is going to pursue nebublous fraud charges against his boss' biggest donors?)

Does anyone have an insight as to why National is requiring all leaders to get 're-trained'? 1- The fees for training aren't high enough for Training to be an income stream, so you can't 'follow the money'. 2- Is there a National Training Syllabus Writing Department that needs to be kept busy? 3- Are they requiring veteran Scouters to attend training as a substitute for proofreading? 4- Is the 'BSA Way' changing so rapidly that they need to re-write it all every 4 or 5 years? 5- Are the majority of leaders new to their positions and really need training, because National finally ran off all the old farts by making us get re-trained, again? 6- Is it National's goal to get rid of the old farts and start over with young soccer player types who aren't so critical? Just womdering...

Calico, I think you've gotten Lincoln bassackward: "a set of men that should do all the eating and none of the work" seems to describe the OWS protesters who want all the money without having to work for it. Of course that description also fits union bosses...

RememberSchiff, I think you may have answered your own question. If you really are wondering "what can be done now to bring past BSA child abusers to justice," is it any wonder that "The parents, all Catholics (current, lapsed, former), will NOT support ... start(ing) any unit at our town Catholic Church." Mayhap they've reached their tolerance for muck-raking? (I'm CM of a Catholic School pack, so I'm aware of the intricacies involved.)

skeptic, I certainly agree with you. Let the kids run free in the woods; and they will entertain themselves, learn that falling down hurts, and that electronic games are only shadows of reality. Isn't it amazing that so many of us survived riding in cars without seat belts??