Gold Winger

" Yeah, but its problematic." Only for some. Many fire departments have their junior firefighter programs running without LFL support so doing it as a Venture Crew isn't a problem. "Nothing stopping boys who want to do Boy Scouting Advancement to continue on in their troop, which is the proper place for Boy Scouting Advancement." The proper place? If that was the case, then it wouldn't be allowed through Venturing. Could it be that Beaver's wisdom is greater than the gods in Texas?

That's because Beaver is a black letter Scouter unless it suits to be otherwise. Let's say that you have a bunch of boys who are junior volunteer firefighters. They spend much of their time at the firehouse and have gotten tired of Boy Scouts because the adults won't let them lead. However, one or two of them still want to earn Eagle. As Venturers, they can earn Scout advancement but as Explorers they cannot. As Venturers they can remain active in OA. As Venturers they can go to Camporees and wow everyone with their knot tying skills. So as Venturers, they can do their firefighting but still advance and have non-firefighting fun. As Explorers, they can learn about firefighting and hang out at the fire hall.

I've run across Venture Crews chartered by volunteer fire departments and the members do fire guy stuff. I've also run across small police departments chartering Venture Crews, obviously they haven't appeared on Meryln's radar yet. Why? maybe because they wanted the opportunities to take advantage of some of the opportunities that Venturing offers. The real answer is that you've got to do what will make the charter org happy. If they insist on an Explorer post, that's what they get.

Challenges in advancement? Serving in a leadership position? That can be challenging but that's part of Venturing. If crew is going biking and someone says, "Hey, we can do the biking merit badge while we're at it" there's nothing wrong with that, especially since there is no rule prohibiting it. Now if the crew is focused on Shakespearean comedy production, they probably won't do any biking but there's nothing wrong with that.

I just don't think that it belongs as part of advancement. Make it mandatory that every troop go over it every year but get it out of advancement. Better yet, leave the burden on the parents. When I was about six, my mother sat me down and had a talk about strange adults and how they might want me to do strange things and if ran across anyone like that, I was to get out of there and tell her. I think that she would have beat the guy to death with a rolling pin. The point is, my mother took charge and her advice stuck with me until this day.

BTW, my group would be the "Gold Wingers" and your first badge would be the Phoenix and the highest rank would be Aspencade. Instead of car camping, we'd go bike camping and we'd learn important skills like chrome polishing and the left handed wave.

In my experience, normal is a pack meeting once a month and den meetings weekly. It sounds like your CM needs to go to training or needs to be replaced. Talk to the committee chair or the COR. Badn-Powell said that Scouting is a game and indeed it is. Like most games, it has rules and ways that things should be done. If your son played soccer and the coach said that it was okay for the boys to pick up the ball and run with it, would they be playing soccer? They'd be having fun but they wouldn't be playing soccer. Scouting is the same way. You're not doing Scouting if you don't follow the Scouting program. As for the uniforms, there are things to do. A fund raiser in town to raise money just for uniforms (following BSA guidelines, of course) that would create a uniform bank and when boys outgrow their uniform, they turn it in and draw a new one. Uniforms can be found at great prices at yard sales, rummage sales and on ebay. Or just say, "since we can't afford BSA shirts, we'll all get Pack T-shirts and that's what we'll wear for meetings. Like a soccer team, the uniform gives a sense of belonging to a group. That's why gangs have colors. As for losing boys, my son's troop lost about 50% of the boys when the new Scoutmaster wanted to start following the program. The troop became stronger as a result. Paring away the deadwood can be a good thing.

I agree with Venividi (what happened to vici?). If this was basketball camp, the boy would be saying, "Hey! I was supposed to learn how to do a reverse lay-up! But all the old guy did was say, don't worry about it, I'll check it off." The difference? The boy knows that without the reverse lay-up, his game will be negatively impacted which makes it important. In Scouting, to many adults, the skills aren't important, advancement is despite every book saying "a good program leads to advancement." Instead of having activities in which a boy can use his new or hone his old skills, we have class room sessions with book sign-off at the end. Since the boy has been led to believe by the adults that advancement is the most important thing, he believes that the check-off is more important than the skill. If I was in charge of a troop, we'd get rid of the "trail to first class" at summer camp which is just a big sign off session. We wouldn't have adults involved in demonstration process. I'd have a boy teach another boy the "bowline" for example and then he'd say, go home and practice. You'll demonstrate it for me next week. If the new guy didn't practice, he wouldn't advance. The same is true for knife sharpening, first aid, maybe everything except fire starting because parents probably wouldn't want fires built in their living rooms but every campout would be an opportunity for a new boy to demonstrate fire building skills WITHOUT an instructor prompting him "okay, now the bird's nest." I'm sure that people are going to jump up and say, "that's not the way we do things." Maybe not. If you're here, you care enough to want to discuss the program. But when I read things like, "the boy shouldn't have to worry about what he needs to advance," I'm not sure.

Interesting, so supporting the Patrol Method is a baaaad program, in your mind. And running a troop like a Webelos 3 Den is good. Maybe you should check your medicine cabinet and make sure that you've been taking all that is prescribed for you.

You must have a newer dictionary than I because my Funk & Wagnalls doesn't include #3.

"Devolve." I hate to pick nits. Okay, I love to pick nits. Devolve means to delegate not degenerate. :-)

Let's see . . . Beaver says that a crew in which Boy Scout advancement is occurring is a poorly run crew. I point out that is could be that the boys want to do it and I'm in the wrong. Interesting. Yes, I have a simplistic view of Scouting. I believe in the patrol concept and don't care for the Webelos III version of Boy Scouts. I also belive in making boys work for what they earn, by that I want to see that they've actually learned what the book says that they are supposed to have learned. I'd like to see semaphore reintroduced but since it's not in the book, I won't do it. I also believe that most parents should be kept in the background and that if older boys step up to be Patrol Leader we wouldn't need those silly Patrol Advisors (Web III Den Leaders) Yep, that's me. TTFN

"I fail to understand why you might think their faith is less legitimate than others" Faith is the important word there. An atheist has no faith.

I would love to SPLs run for a second term. In my son's troop, they usually step down right as they are hitting their stride and learning the job.

"We cannot change this decision." We actually can't change anything in Scouting. All we do is blunder along while those on Olympus do what they want.

Then why bother calling it a religion and having "churches." Have a shrine in your living room. I don't care much for religion but I don't see the point in a smorgasbord church.

It sounds like you'd survive. You can do the important stuff like feed yourself and washing your underwear. What more does a guy need? The laundry puzzle gets most men and today, many women too. Bleach goes in with whites and towels to sanitize them and hopefully make your shorts white again. Lights are your powder blue oxford cloth dress shirts and your wash khakis. My mother believe that all men needed to know how to survive without a woman. So at an early age, I learned to cook. I'm not a fancy cook, I could be but that's too much work for something is going to disappear in 10 minutes :-). Laundry? In my sleep. Cleaning? I could make a Marine barracks on inspection day look filthy but I don't do it that much. Yard work? I hate it but I do it. Automotive work? Anything short of rebuilding the engine. Taxes? Computer work? That's me too. Birthday cakes? Cup cakes for school? Cookies for girl scout meetings? Hallow'een costumes? I did it all. I'm surviving quite nicely without a spouse. It's the ex that's struggling. :-) One of her complaints was that I didn't "contribute." Now when we talk and she complains about the car, computer, taxes, cooking, laundry, etc., I ask, "who do you think took care of all of that before?" And I chuckle all the way back to my batchelor pad where the Laker Girls are waiting for me . . . and then I wake up.

The actual hike was about five miles. Why does a atheist minister surprise you? UU is like Alice's Restaurant. "You can believe anything you want . . ." I'm surprised that they assigned him the commandment that they did.

Nah, it was going on long before "Columbine." I think that the government's attempts at pacification may have helped promote incidents like that at Columbine High School. Anger and resentment build and instead of becoming a tussle on the playground, it becomes a plan for a massacre. Express anger, frustration or even dislike for another person and you're headed to the school shrink and that was going on long before Columbine.

For some reason "bullying" has become a big issue. Our local Blue Cross/Blue Shield company is waging an anti-bully campaign. Apparently, now if someone ignores you that is bullying. Cyberbully? If someone's mean to you complain to the moderator? Leave the chat room? It's all part of the "let the government take care of you" campaign. It used to be that the way to deal with a bully was to stand up to him and show that you aren't afraid. Not any more. Now it's cry and run for help.

What I see too often is that the Scout never does anything to mastery. At summer camp and in troops, what I see is "Okay, here's how your tie an inverted klubel-hitch." The Scouts muddle through it once and get signed off. 15 minutes later if you ask anyone to tie the inverted klubel-hitch all you'll get is a blank stare. I remember my brother practicing his knots until he could tie them with his hands behind his back. Then he was tested. I had friends who were scouts and they apparently went through a similar process because they'd walk around with a piece of rope, tying knots. All too often, advncement is not about learning, demonstrating and using skills but about getting boxes checked off so the boy can get a new patch and be on the road to Eagle. I hear adults saying, "We want to have all the new boys to Tenderfoot before summer camp." We? Shouldn't it be up to the boys to say, "Hey, I want to learn this stuff so I can become Tenderfoot." Naaaaaah. Call me a cynic but when I look at the things that fell out of the requirements, I see things that took longer than a day to master. In the 60s a Scout had to master the square knot, sheet-bend, clove hitch, two half hitches and tautline hitch for tenderfoot. Now? Two half hitches and tautline hitch. In the 60s, a Scout had to show skill at tracking. Now? Nope. Signaling? No more. Map making? Uh-uh. Today there are more important requirements like "What to do with a bully!" Don't stand up for yourself, run to your parents who'll call a lawyer. Oops, that's a rant. I'd better stop.

It has nothing to do with the definition of "is," it has to do with the definition of "tenure." Tenure refers to a specific position. There's no real need for clarification since "tenure" is well defined in any dictionary as is "is." I would argue that it doesn't even have to be "program specific" since one could be a Cub Master in one pack and a Committee Member in another. Two seperate positions, two tenures. "Search the forum and you will find this question has been answered before" Newton answered many questions about light but it doesn't mean that his answers were right.

"Our philosphy is that if you want to go car camping, go with your family. The troop does backpacking, Leave No Trace, minimal impact on the environment, etc...." BP was of the opinion that your campsite should be as comfortable as your home. Chairs, tables, etc. For hiking trips we usually hire ten or fifteen locals to carry our gear.

" Makes me feel like a snoot when they don't understand what the heck I'm talking about." I look at it this way, if they had paid attention in the ninth grade, they'd understand what I said.

"syllabuses (is that a word?)" Syllabi tenure (tnyer, -yr) noun 1. a. The act, fact, or condition of holding something in one's possession, as real estate or an office; occupation. b. A period during which something is held. I would argue that different position, different tenure. Hence, your time as Cub Master cannot be used as time for both Cub Master Award and Cub Scouter Award because they are the same tenure. However, your simultaneously held position as District Committee has its own tenure, so you can earn another award using those same calendar years.