Gold Winger

"Sure, we don't have as much pioneering or camping skills." However, an SM who doesn't know how to light a fire or sharpen a knife doesn't have much credibility with boys who he is asking to do the same. The mission statement the army doesn't mention blowing things up or killing anyone but they sure spend enough time and money both training to do so and actually doing so. They could meet their mission statement by going to Afghanistan and scolding the terrorsits. BP thought that the outdoors was the best classroom, who are we to second guess him?

$200 isn't much to an executive who makes $150,000 a year or more. However, to someone working at Wal-mart and trying to raise two kids, pay the rent and buy food, $200 is a fortune. You can't really compare corportate training to BSA training. For one, the instructors aren't volunteers. And your employer is usually paying the bill.

There is only a "grandfather clause" if specified in the "Requirements" book which EVERY advancement chair and SM should have.

Then you cannot possibly say that NAACP has awarded a scholarship to a white person, can you? Tsk, tsk, tsk. You shouldn't make statements that can't be substantiated. Gold Winger++

Two problems there. I've been in two large councils and in both the complaint is that records are never up-to-date. So how the heck is coucil supposed to verify that a merit badge has been earned? It would be very easy for a nefarious Scout to get a hold of an advancement report, fill it out and drop it by the Scout center. "Hi, Mr. Brown asked me to drop this off. Yeah, I'll take his copy back to him." If the council does have its records up to date, that boy has now Earned" that merit badge. Oh sure, he could forge a blue card but when I was going over his records, I'd have said, "Hey, I don't have any record of you earning Swimming." "Hmmmmm . . . this isn't my signature. Where'd you get this card?"

"But if we were to increase the time to say a week?" Scoutmaster training in my old district used to take six weeknights and had two weekend outdoor sessions. The course was always full. With the changes in cirriculum, it is hard to get people to commit to one or two nights.

For me, hiking on flat with a 50 lb pack is about 200 Calories (Big "C" calories) per mile so a 10 mile hike is 2000 Calories. Add in your basal rate of around 1,000 Calories, throw in a few more for staying warm at night and you are looking at 3,500 to 4,000 Calories. Wow! Throw in some hills and the number really soar. According to the treadmill at my gym, at a 15% grade my caloric output nearly doubles.

"No, GW, Eagle Boards of Review go by the data on the Eagle Application." Don't know about that. What I do know is that our district Eagle Boards scrutinze the big book of blue cards. Considering that advancement data at the council is never up to date, depending on them to provide verification of anything is absurd. I know of Scouts, not rumors but reports from the Eagle Board, of Scouts who didn't pass their board because they couldn't prove that they had merit badge listed on their paperwork.

"Sure, and by that relativistic view of morality, there are literally no standards that cannot be just cast aside." Yep. It used to be that the ruler could kill you without penalty because that was his god given right. Now we've changed, I'm sure that the Czar would be disappointed to know that. We consider stealing to be wrong but in other cultures, stealing is acceptable because if you can't protect your stuff, you don't deserve it. We consider spying, snooping and evesdropping to be wrong but the government spends BILLIONS to fund spying, snooping and evesdropping in the name of "national security." Interesting how it is okay for the government to spy but if you think that you're neighbors are planning to murder you, you can't spy on them. Pre-marital sex and extr-marital sex used to be taboo but now they are accepted, tolerated and even condoned. The list is endless. Morality is very flexible and continues to change daily.

"After sumping and trying to choke down warm water with chunks of semi liquid leftovers, what is the leave no trace rule for cleaning up several piles of vomit from the campsite?" That's what I thought at first but what's really the difference between chili and chili with a bit of water added? Besides after humping a 40 to 50 lb ruck up and down mountains for a day, you'll eat anything. I even ate green beans on a hike and normally I'd rather go hungry than eat green beans. Speaking of food and philmont, one of the greatest things going there when it comes to food are the "swap boxes." Food that you don't want is deposited in a box at a staff camp for anyone to take. Amazing what you can find in there. One day I scored six bags of tuna. Another goodie that was frequently in the swap boxes was the freeze dried corn. Light and fluffy, can eat it dry and it makes a great snack.

" But in reality, unless it gets entered into Troopmaster and then sent to the council office it is not "earned."" Let's not bring that piece of crappy software into the issue. Troopmaster is neither official nor magical, it's like Windows . .. entrenched. Last time that I checked, Eagle Boards don't go by troop master reports, they go by blue cards. When I did advancement for my son's troop, I had to make more than a few phone calls to get replacement blue cards for Scouts who had lost them and needed them for their Eagle Board. Why was I doing it rather than the Scout? If it was a local counselor, I'd let the "Scout" handle it. For summer camp merit badges, it was far more expedient for me to do it (Hi Becky, Gold Winger here. I need a replacement fingercarving blue card for Jimmy Jones. July 99. Thanks.). Yes, I could have let him do it but Scouts usually have school during the day.

"Women scouters have talent and skills and love working with the kids to help them grow." Don't know about that. Most women scouters that I know have a hard time letting go and letting boys be boys. When fathers interfere, they are usually trying to skirt the rules for advancement or permission slip deadlines. Mothers are the ones who rush to their child's defense when he has broken a rule and has the explanation of why the rule was broken and how it is unfair to "punish" their child. Just my observations. I'm not a sociologist and I never played one TV but maybe I could get a grant to study this. Of course, now I've offended half of this forum.

" Also big fancy meals means more food, more pots, more fuel and more clean-up." Not really. I am a big fan of cooking in "roasting bags." Put the ingredients into the bag, mix well and either add boiling water and let steep or or plop the bag into the boiling water to cook. Either way, you only have a dirty bag which can be closed up and packed out with the rest of the trash and no pots to wash. We avoid cleaning our eating cups by "sumping" them. I don't know if this is a common practice but it was foreign to a boy who joined us from another troop that does a lot of hiking. After you are finished eating, add a small amount of hot water to your cup and swish it around to get all the food to the bottom. Drink the water. Repeat until cup is clean. For the next meal, we sanitize the cups by dunking in the boiling water. "Philmont meals are great but generate so much trash it is ridiculous!" My only experiences have been with Philmont style meals because that's what the troop tends to use. All the meal trash from 8 to 10 people usually fits into a 1 gallon sip lock with room to spare. Unfortunately, it can't be burned or buried so we have to tote it out. Every know and then we come across a ranger with a truck who'll take it for us and then we rejoice.

Wow! What are you feeding those guys. I'd be overjoyed that they want to do it. I've spent five years trying to convince my son and his friends to just on a patrol outing without 50 adults in attendance. We know that is is legal. "Patrol activitiesA Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own." From http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/ I'd let them go. Admonish them that this is a trial and future opportunities will depend on what happens on this hike. I don't know your boys but with some of my son's troop mates, I'd be worried about tents burning unless there was an adult around. Be sure to go over their plans and gear. First aid. Whistles.Bail out. Only one cell phone for emergencies. Afterwards, contact the authorities to see if there were any complaints of Boy Scuts misbehaving. Also, make sure that they are readily identifyiable as Scouts and not just thugs with packs. Good luck to all.

In that case, that was an activity and it wasn't a regular thing. I see far too much "Here, Johnny have a plate of cookies. You've been working really hard at coloring." I'm sure that we must have had a snack at my den meetings back in the 60s as they were right after school. Of course things were different then, we all walked to school and didn't have video games. Back then, if you had told people that in 40 years kids would rather sit on their duff and pretend to ride a bike than actually riding a bike, we'd have thought that you were crazy.

Couple options here. Maybe ask the PLC to pass a rule that dinner has to be a "meal". You can figure out the parameters. Make it a contest. Every outing has a cooking contest with points accumulated through the year and at the end, the winning patrol gets a golden spoon for their patrol flag and dinner at Pizza Hut. One thing to remember. They are boys. Boys only really want interesting food if they don't have to prepare it. Otherwise they can live on ramen and hot dogs for years.

But the sky really isn't blue . . . :-)

They probably went that route because they don't know what's available. For backpacking you wouldn't want stuff that is already wet. So look at dried foods. Also, when I'm already toting 30 lbs of gear and 6 lbs of water, I don't want to complex cooking gear and and heavy food. Jerky for breakfast makes a nice addition. Possibly a bag of dry pack tuna with lunch or cut up slim jims into the noodles. Dinner has a host of options. There are all sorts of dishes with meat and noodles or rice. You don't have to buy the expensive meals at the camping store. Look in the supermarket at Zataran's and similar products. Give them options and let them choose. (This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

Bagpipes in rock http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nontraditional_bagpipe_usage#Bagpipes_in_rock

" Greed might outweigh the craving" Nah! I work with a young woman who complains that she can't afford health care at $250 a month but she has about $150 a month for smokes. Addicts will resort to crime to feed their addiction.

"Well, you'd be wrong" Can you name one white person who has been awarded a scholarship by the NAACP? Cite your source. As for the fact that the NAACP was founded by whites, that's irrelevant and an attempt to divert attention.

" How about trenching around your tent, with a trench big enough to divert the Mississippi? Is that practical or relevent in today's world?" Now that's just sill and has nothing to do with anything. If I had a tent without a floor, I'd be digging a ditch. You remind me of the "BSA is God" guys who respond to criticism of the current handbook by pointing out that the old ones didn't cover CPR. Newton didn't cover quantum mechanics but that doesn't mean his ideas weren't sound. Sometime, actually quite often, newer isn't better but the folks who signed off on the system are too embarassed to admit that they bought a three legged horse.

By a strange co-incidence I have Come on Eileen on my computer. I'll give a listen. . . . . Too-rah-loo-rah. . . .mmmm .mmmmm .mmm At this moment . . . m m m mmmmm m m m Drums, bass, fiddle, piano . . . no skirling o' the pipes that I can hear.

My son's troop tried having a Venture Patrol a few years back but they never wanted to do anything.

Actually, according to the BSA style manual, your example would be "a Boy Scout in a Venture Patrol. We have Cub Scouts, Webelos Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity Scouts and Venturers but no critter called a "Venture Scout" At one time we had Explorer Scouts but they became Explorers. FWIW, I like the term Venture Scouts because it lets folks outside the program know who you belong to. Hey, let's lobby national to change the name!