Gold Winger

" Keep in mind that procedures do not a requirement make." The word "must" makes it a requirement.

" there is date for the illegal marriage that's what bigamy is all about." It's not really a marriage because the second wife is cut out of the loop for Social Security, inheritance, health insurance. So it is one of those strange things "you're not really married but we'll punish you for it anyway." I'd think that having two wives is punishment enough.

Bevah, in his infinite wisdom, proclaimed that Blue Cards are not necessary and states as evidence that many troops don't use them. Let us assume that "blue card" is colloquial for "merit badge application" and isn't always blue. In a similar fashion, a foreigneer may have a "Green Card" but those haven't been green for years. Given that, I offer from the merit badge counselor's training "When a Scout has decided on a merit badge he would like to earn, he must follow these steps . . . Obtain from his Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application . . ." According to this a Scout MUST obtain a merit badge application. BSA also states " The Scout turns in both sections of the Application for Merit Badge to his Scoutmaster so the merit badge can be secured." Sounds like BSA thinks that the "blue card" is required, a three part blue card. Not a big sheet from camp or an email. A "blue card." Hmmmm. . . interesting.

" I won't go into thge date of the merit badge not being what the original question was asking." The original question was "when was it earned." The date of the merit badge is the date that the badge was earned. I had hoped that you could have made that leap without assistance.

There is no date because there is no merit badge just like there'd be no date for your marriage if you were married illegally.

I see that you're having trouble with the concept that right and wrong are only what you believe. A hungry man doesn't believe that it is wrong to steal food but the farmer does. Since we have been raised certain criteria for right and wrong, most of us agree and make rules accordingly. Why is coveting your neighbor's possessions up there with murder in the 10 C's? Probably because back then, coveting lead to clobbering or theft. Is coveting wrong? It is usually counterproductive but wrong? Right and wrong change.

"Are you saying the murder and rape are not actually wrong? That the reality is that we as a society just have decided they were wrong and most people go along with it?" Yep. Some societies think that blowing your nose in public is wrong but farting is okay. I happen to think that murder and rape are wrong but both nose blowing and farting in public are fine. Had I been raised diffferently, I'd probably think differently. The fact that people had to write it down in a book to make it stick means that it wasn't universally accepted. "Daddy, why shouldn't you kill that guy that bumped into you?" "Because the Creator said so, let me tell you a story about the first person who killed another, his name was Cain . . ." I can imagine a meeting of a pre-historic village. "Moog, the knife maker was killed by Jord the Hunter." "Why?" "Moog wanted six beaver pelts for a new flint knife and Jord only had four." "So, what's the big deal? They fought and Moog lost." "Now we don't have a knife maker" "Hey! What if we say you just can't kill people because you don't like what they did?" "Okay!"

No, I'm not. The date of the merit badge is when the counselor signs the card. Look at it like this, you're married when the preacher signs the marriage license not when the preacher mails a copy the courthous unless it is discovered that you're already married or, in some states, you lied on the marriage license. So the date of the merit badge is the date the card was signed unless there is evidence of misfeasance, malfeasance, or nonfeasance.

" At a district/council level, where we have to serve multiple units, it ain't kosher to force such a requirement addition on every other troop." So far as I know, no one in the district has filed an appeal because of incomplete records. I'm really surprised that anyone would accept anything from BSA when it comes to records. I've never seen a correct roster come from council. I tried for three years to get a name correction for a scout before it took. One of the units that I commish have paperwork from council that claims that the had over 100 boys last year. They swear that they've never had more than 50. So let's look at your trust in BSA. "Tell me Life Scout Smith, council says that you completed the Swimming Merit Badge but you don't have the card." "Uh-huh." "Did you ask your advancement guy for a copy?" "Yeah but he says that he doesn't have any records." "No records" "Nope. He thought that he might have misplaced the advancement sheet so he drove 40 miles to council offices and went through their paperwork. No joy." Hmmmm . . . what to do? We know that council NEVER makes a mistake. Maybe if we went back and asked the previous advancement guy, he'd remember that John Smith had taken swimming and then left the troop four years ago. Who's the scout in front of the Board? Jon Smith. But I see your point. Let's only worry about the rules when it might add to the "burden" on the Scout. Let's not worry about those silly rules in G2SS because, after all, this is just a kid's group and supposed to be fun. Right?

"When is a Merit Badge considered earned, when the MBC signs the card or when the SM signs off?" Is has to be when the counselor signs off. For one thing that's the date that I put on the records :-). The other is that's the date that would be considered when it comes time for Eagle. If a Scout finishes his last merit badge on the day before his 18th birthday but doesn't give it to the SM until the next day, it counts. QED There, the original question has been answered and we can get on with the discussion.

" So Gold Winger you don't see certain actions as right or wrong in and of themselves? Murder, rape,stuff like that." Nope. We decided that they were bad long, long ago and most go along with it. Obviously some don't agree or the police wouldn't have so much work.

" IMHO, if the fundraisers and Scout's contributions don't fund an activity, then the activity shouldn't happen. The BOYS didn't work hard enough for it. " Oh, the horror of it all. You'd let boys miss out on an activity because they didn't care enough to raise the money to take part in it? You are a vile and evil person. Boys cannot be expected to anything other than horse around at the PLC while the SM plans the activities. They shouldn't have to keep track of their accomplishments or know where they stand for advancement, they just don't have the brainpower even though they are taking calculus in the 9th grade. Oh, evil thy name is Sctldr. :-)

Your analogies break down because, as an umpire, I don't care about MVP I'm at a loss to figure out what Charlie would be doing in the stands or why'd I give a player anything to show that he batted, that's not the umps responsibility. By rule, I don't care who is standing in the batters box. The same player could bat six times in a row and I wouldn't say a word. However, to continue with your attempt to follow my logic. I sign the book, the team phones in the scores but they hang onto the book to prove that they did what they say they did. You seem to want to lift all burdens from the shoulders of the kids. After all, they're kids and can't really be expected to keep track of things or even pay attention to what's going on. They're kids and are supposed to be having fun. After all, isn't Scouting about having fun. Let the PLC make the decision of where to go for summer camp but don't expect a Scout to hang onto his own records. Doesn't track true for me.

I view the Scout as part of the archival process much like we were back in the olden days before parents became obsessed with their kids' homework. We kept our homework and quizes in case the teacher had made an error in recording the grades. "Hey teach! Why'd I get a C?" We keep saying that part of Scouting is teaching responsibility but we seem to keep taking that away from kids in general. Don't worry about keeping track of anything, we'll do that. I've been told that we're supposed to tell the Scouts when they are ready to advance. Maybe I'm unusual but I don't think so. Forty years ago, I knew when basketball and baseball practices were and it was my responsibility to get there. When I was a Cub Scout, I knew what I had to do and pestered my mother until she'd observe it an sign off in my book. Had I gone on to Boy Scouts, I would have known what I needed to do and I wouldn't have wanted my parents to get involved. From gradeschool on, I kept track of my assignments and took care of them. Sure I was the classic "wait until the last night" guy (still am) but I didn't drag my mother into it. It was my job to get to the SATs and my job to fill out the college applications. What do I see today? Parents driving their kids to baseball practice even though it is only 1/2 mile away. When the kid is late for baseball, scouts or whatever, the parent usually says, "I forgot and Jimmy wasn't ready in time." What happened to "Mom! I have baseball, let's go!" As a society, we're incredibly two faced when it comes to our kids. In one breath we'll talk about how mature they are. .. "They're old enough to make up their minds about sex" but when Suzy gets pregnant, instead of making her take responsibility, the parent take over raising the child. "My kids are taking college level classes in the 9th grade, isn't that great." Then have the audacity to complain about the amount of homework because it interferes with other activities, after all Jimmy is just a kid. Sure we'll let our daughter go to the Dominican Republic for Spring Break, she's old enough. Oh my, how was she supposed to know that those six guys wanted to have sex with her, she's just a kid. Maybe if we make kids take responsibility for their own activities, we might be more willing to step in when we need to.

"But yeh are no better than barbers with leeches" Barbers aren't using leeches any more but doctors still do.

You seem to be the one obsessed with paperwork with your revolt against record keeping. Life is filled with paperwork. Every game that I umpired for my 20 year career ended with me signing the scorebook. If I didn't, the game never happened. Would the league have rejected the scores if I hadn't signed? Don't know, never didn't sign. Birth, death, work, college, all filled with paperwork. About the only thing that doesn't involve paperwork is falling in love but marriage and children involve tons of paperwork. I'm not obsessed with it, it is just a fact of modern life.

I don't have anything to trade but I have a small collection of stuff too. Mostly hat plumes and badges from other countries. I've managed to get a couple of the BSA hat plumes. I also have found every edition of the Scout Handbook except the first one.

"Do you actually think right and wrong change or is it just our reaction to the action." Right and wrong are only our reactions to something. Right and wrong are really human constructs, a lion doesn't ask if it is right before he eats the eland.

I really like the old rules that we no longer follow like if you child is disobedient, have him put to death. "Junior, mow the lawn." "Don't wanna" "Okay, let's go see the Sheriff!" Right and wrong are continually evolving.

" I know you can't really answer in a precise manner because all you have is an undefined gut feeling that you're uncomfortable with homosexuals." Not really. When I was younger I had a number of openly homosexual friends and that didn't bother me. However, as I grew older I began to look at the lifestyle choices of my homosexual friends with a critical eye. I don't care to associate with people like that and I really don't want my children to be forced to associate with people like that.

Mine are pilling after less than a dozen wearings. I was surprised to see that they are made in China, after all the years of BSA hoopla about American made uniforms. Two problems. Not cold enough for long johns yet but not warm enough for thin plastic pants. They wrinkle like mad and hold their wrinkles. Can't iron them like I cn with regualar pants. Yes, I press my poly-cotton shirts and IRON with starch my cotton shirts. Wear and tear may be a badge of honor but wrinkles aren't.

I don't know how the den leaders did it in my son's pack but as advancment guy, I had a big binder with a sheet for each Scout. Each sheet had spaces for ranks, arrow points, belt loops, pins, etc.. Once a month, I'd sit down with the notes from the DLs, update the book and make a shopping list. Took about an hour a month.

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

As I said before Slouchat, it's not your concern.

"It's a kids' program, not a review for the Congressional Medal of Honor. Boy Scouts of America, not BureaucratS of America. There's a role for paperwork, but it ain't to put up lots of artificial hurdles for kids or busywork for adults." Gotta love it. With one side of the mouth folks like you say, "Oh, that's not important" but with the other side, you complain about people taking shortcuts. It's a game, like baseball or soccrer and has rules and expectations. Heck, to have your kid play soccer, you have to provide a birth certificate to prove his age. Hey, it's only a game. But there are rules and whenever there are rules, there will be people who try to circumvent those rules. We have an obligation to make sure that the rules are followed by all involved.