fred8033

I never saw the IVF file on your unit. So, I can only speak in generalities. But it's awareness is very much different than approval or support. Often SEs can't do anything until incidents happen. And the incidents are relative to the times. Drinking and porn were not automatic ejections back then and definitely don't have the same legal consequences as now. My point is BSA had at any time a million leaders (volunteer and paid). The huge vast majority were righteous upstanding people. I'm not willing to brand BSA or all the good it did based on the interpretation of select incid

That's been happening for many years. The latest round after sharing with 80,000+ claimants will get pennies compared to some of the earlier lawsuits. So it can be. Business partners have a right to opt in and out depending on their situation. It's how legal rights work.

If the right laws were in place ... if the right education and training was in place ... there was no way this should have been dropped once the police report happened. You say I'm dumping BSA liability. I'd say you are misbranding BSA as a self-interested evil doer. BSA was filled with millions and millions of volunteer and paid professions who were 100% focused on doing right by the youth. When things fell below the line, it was the aberration and not the norm. The situation sounds exactly like a product of the times. But you are right in one way. I do view the IVF as an ef

I did not want details. I was just curious how far the police went. Interviews? a real report being filed? Anyone arrested? etc, etc. If police were pulled in, the police are working with the victims and it's outside scouting control. I'm betting it was dropped for the same many reasons many cases were dropped. Not taking it seriously enough. Right criminal laws not yet in place. People not understanding nature of abuse. People satisfied by the person quitting. People not wanting their family in the center of attention and being labeled victims. etc, etc. ... Once police we

A key point is deep pockets. Having each LC handle their own breaks up the incentive of deep pockets. Let the cases be handled on their merits and even be grouped at the council level. But the national scale to combine it all together is just too vast and not controllable. If I was a LC SE, I'd 100% consider this strategy. Being lumped in together in one massive negotiation escalates the issues beyond control. We are not supposed to raise the fees issue here, but the others are arguing about BSA not negotiating in good faith. That's wrong too. This is a legal case at this point with

With today's challenges (liabilities, YPT, charter org, family time, etc), is there a possibility to refocus scouting around the council camps? Camps offering weekend skills training ... weekend advancement testing and sign-off ... Camps offering monthly adventure opportunities ... I'm sure you could establish a program that doesn't require a huge paid staff. Instead, leverage camp masters and skilled volunteers to teach and test. Leverage "family scouting" to provide the YPT. Think of it as a state park with resources, skills instruction and advancement. Where I'v

Wow. Excluding the world pandemic, many concils are not in that bad of shape. Yes membership drops, but not as bad as it seemed. Perhaps, it is in the best interest of councils to not donate out of the larger BSA bankruptcy and deal with cases as they come. Some states don't have look backs. Some councils have fewer cases. Some councils with larger liabilies already have those liabilities. The best interest of councils to stay 100% grounded in being their own separate legal entities. Let BSA resolve it's own bankruptcy. The councils should continue to focus on serving yout

Perhaps I'm not understanding the question. Lots out there. https://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/boy-scout-ceremonies.asp http://scoutmaster.org/rank_ceremonies_final.pdf https://www.boyscouttrail.com/ceremony_search.asp http://usscouts.org/usscouts/ceremony/bsarcer.asp https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ceremonies.pdf Lots out there... Plus here are my words of advice. Avoid native American themed ceremonies. Times have changed. Not everyone will be understanding. Create your own tradition ... advancing a patch on an advancement

I've seen "deleted" discussed in the past. From an old registrar, it was reflecting how they tracked registered leaders. Deleted was not hiding. It was removing the registration.

CSA ?? What did the police report say? It's common for people to quickly resign after an ugly incident ... especially where they have done wrong. It's the only thing they can control. The rest is out of their hands. Plus, they often have magical thinking that they can avoid repercussions if they leave. ... I'm sure many times they did ... So, I would not be surprised if the resignation happened days or even weeks before the other dates. Deciding to come forward takes time. Investigations take time. There was no email or texting back then. It was all hard-wired

I absolutely agree. ... but even further ... in addition to requiring mandatory reporting from all youth serving organizations ... Federal government should also spin-up an extension/branch of the FBI that would host an intake point for abuse complaints from all sources. Then based on location and other categories, it could be routed to the correct local authorities, city / state police. In addition, schools, unversities, etc could be notified too. FBI would not need to investigate. Rather, it would route and report patterns and statistics.

I'd love to see your perception of the Lion and Tiger program compared to what you experienced or remember as a youth. Many of us argue that cubs is now starting too soon and parents are burning out before their kids cross into troops ... where the big development and value happens ... independence, leadership, etc. ... I know it won't happen, but I crave for cub scouts to start again at 2nd grade or so. I'd love to see a separate thread on your experiences ... versus those of us who have hashed out the discussion from the adult leader perspective.

December 2020 ... airlines also saw a fraction of the flyers. We should probably close half the airports too. Probably don't need as many roads either ... major downtowns have not had the business people ... probably reduce the investments in downtowns ... but ya know ... there was a pandemic ... people not meeting face-to-face ... BSA also has been fighting the worst of all storms for 20 years. BSA's big failure was not finding a safe course and it has lost a generation of youth. Dale vs BSA. Membership battles (gender, faith, orientation). Rehashing 50 years of abuse scandals.

I hugely disagree with that statement. Especially the generation that were raised indoors with video games and cable tv crave outdoor experiences and skills for their kids. It's a phenomenon very close to BP's original purpose of introducing city kids to woodcraft skills. Kids too love new experiences: hiking, climbing, canoeing, being outside in a torrential downpour. Outdoors also teaches conservation, simplicity and ecology. The newest parents demand that. Outdoors is not the issue. That never gets old. Fire. Knives. Bow and arrows. It's the paramiltary appeara

I often think about what the law was back when these cases happened. Would the same conclusion have been reached? Did the BSA see themselves as "operating" the troop? Or did they see COs as operating the troop and BSA providing a program structure? Like a franchise model. Having the law as it exists now, BSA would have done better to structure itself as an intellectual licensing business offering a program. Heck, I'm sure many people thought that is exactly what they were doing and had no idea they were taking "ownership" of so much or ever conceived they had the responsibilities b

Only time will heal these wounds. Only getting outdoors sitting under a tarp during a downpour will wash the pain. Many times it's the kids of the extremely dedicated adults who get affected the most. They see the damage, the cost, the pain, the frustration. They may be wisely saying they don't want to repeat that. I really believe scouting works best when it's kept simple. Get outside and go for a hike. Light a camp fire and cook a meal. Overly focusing on the ideal way of running scouting damages the program. It's fun and useful to think about the ideal scouting progra

Absolutely agree. Which points of law will be emphasized? Which will yield a conclusion or just more litigation? How is the court leaning to affect whether law is interpreted to reach a desired conclusion or applied to find the conclusion?

It makes sense though. Philmont, Seabase and Northern Tier offer experiences scouters can get elsewhere. Many of Philmont's outposts can be found at summer camps or elsewhere. All the hiking, canoeing and other activities can be found elsewhere too. BUT ... the Summit is an identify for BSA. A gathering spot. An event venue. Tens of thousands of scouts can gather. A unique property. Plus, it's the only high-adventure base on the east coast within reasonable drive of large population centers. It's a huge asset. A hundred years from now it could eclipse Philmont as a BSA brand-nam

Agree. Your reasoning is on target. Simple exit with a huge paycheck. Deep pockets drive these cases. Often the best way to protect yourself from such cases is to not have assets. Litigants want a conclusion and cash; not some some end-date years in the future and a promise of a check five or ten years out. I'm sure many would settle for X if 2X means ten more years, lots of additional cost and continued risk gambling the payout. Imaginge the legal and court costs to liquidate council assets? Imagine the suits about disputing clear proper titles? This forum itself has sha

Statue of limitations is a confusing topic and seems extremely pliable to the point we can quesiton if limitations really exist. I fear the Illinois case as it's reasoning effectively eliminates statue of limitations in many cases. For BSA, Illinois elimiated it because of BSA's special relationship installing morals. What about those of churches that exist to instill morals also? What about those of schools that exist to instill reasoning and knowledge? What about medical who's special relationship is to lookout for the health and wellfare of the patient? W

Incompetence or strategy. Not really sure which.

Where you'd say he has no right to call out wrong when he earned his money that way, I'd say people don't have the right to represent themselves as in it to help victims when they are billing $1000 per hour. Those invoices are prima facia evidence that there's a lot of people in this to get rich. Not everyone. But definitely many. Or helping BSA when billing $1000 per hour. Sorry, you're doing it because you can bill $1000 per hour. I suspect by the end of this, both BSA and plaintiffs attorneys will have charged massive amounts. I'm not sure who will have charged more by the t

We're probably closer in opinion then differ on this one. But I would assert sometimes other criminals understand crime better than the innocent.

You should not disparage the character of individuals so soon after saying we are accusing others. It's probably fair game if he's viewing this from the side lines.

We are not accusing specific individuals. It's the whole situation. Anyone can feel emotionally connected and work their hearts out for $1000 per hour. How about doing it for $100 per hour? Ya definitely won't starve at that rate? It's emotional for me because my sons worked as camp staff. I think of their hard work ... often working wake-up to bed-time for minimum wage, effectively $4 per hour. Or the lower level scouting staff that earns a fraction of their value. ... OR ... The millions of BSA adult volunteers over the years that have not been paid and instead paid thous