fred johnson

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

We got through the discussion but I have a feeling the separate den wall will fall in the future. 

Agreed.  It's a forced unneeded and problematic idea.  Now if you have enough boys and girls in a rank to keep them separate and they want to do that, fine.  Absolutely fine.  But if you don't have the numbers and don't have the volunteers, how the heck would you make it work.  Forcing it would just diminish the scouting experience.  

We can argue and debate about good or bad aspects of communication and ScoutBook.  I have a more basic need.  Does our existing advancement person have to learn a new system just before we try to find someone new to take the role?  Or can we delay until the next person steps in? 

We can't plan until we know a turn-off date for BSA Internet Advancement web page. 

In the unit I'm referring too, ScoutBook is a read only utility.  It's not used to record advancement.  So the March 1st warning saying we can't approve advancement is meaningless as it's telling us we won't be able to use something that we already don't use.  

Just now, Col. Flagg said:

According to their IT group it is 3/1/18.

3/1/18 is 1st quarter.  BSA other announcement says ScoutBook Lite available 2nd quarter.  I assume units will not be left without a system to use.  So I'm just hesitant to trust dates yet.  

Just now, Col. Flagg said:

According to Scoutbook, this is the announcement they are posting:

Effective Mar 1, 2018, all units are required to enable the Youth Advancement Synchronization (sync) with the BSA to approve advancements. To activate your unit and Scouts for the youth advancement sync, see the information in our forum thread.

That just says existing ScoutBook units need to activate the automatic sync by March 1st.  No statement about ScoutBook Lite.  No statement about when BSA internet advancement goes away.  I'm being asked by an advancement coordinator how long he has until he has to switch.  I think he's asking as his son is aging out and he's stepping away when the scout ages out.

14 minutes ago, NealOnWheels said:

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/12/21/scoutbook-lite-to-replace-bsas-internet-advancement-platform-in-early-2018/

No date.  ScoutBook lite released 2nd quarter 2018 ... which means to me 2018.    .... the article says the existing platform will be retired.  I assume it's not the exact same day. 

So is BSA Internet Advancement to be turned off same day, same week, same month, same year?

Does anyone have an announced date that BSA online advancement is being turned off? 

I'm asking as I want to learn when our troop needs to start using ScoutBook.  We'd like to like to start using ScoutBook for advancement at least a month before BSA ScoutNet Online Advancement interface is turned off.  

On 1/30/2018 at 2:56 PM, Hawkwin said:

The book is not necessarily the best utility for documenting or tracking progress. It is a good reference but not as good of a tracking tool. My son's is already starting to have damaged pages. It works fairly well for rank tracking but IMO it doesn't do a good job at all as it pertains to merit badges - and it really can't since there are so many. If we tried to print and list all the requirements for all merit badges on paper, it would easily run 1000 pages.

He already has to use the computer every time he wants to research a merit badge and print off the requirements. The book simply can't help with that. They book also cannot be updated as rules and requirements change as they have in recent years.

On 1/30/2018 at 2:58 PM, Thunderbird said:

@fred johnson  Scoutbook isn't intended to replace the Handbooks or the blue cards.  But it can serve as a backup, and also a great place to keep notes or pics.  For example, Scout visits a historic site as part of Citizenship in the Nation mb.  He can make a note of the date, take a pic(s), add some notes.  We still do most everything face-to-face, but it's nice to have a backup.  In addition, it's nice that everybody has access to the same information (assuming that it's kept up to date).

I agree paperbook is not a good backup.  But he has a zippered cover with zippered pockets on the cover where he stores his incomplete MB cards.  

For backup, sure let an adult enter in the data.  Or use the online system to show the complete list of MBs.  

It's just that I want to encourage my son to be accustomed to working off line.  Even at 10 years old, these scouts are very comfortable online and using online systems.  I want him to benefit in scouting from using the paper copy and learning to stay organized and to work interactively with people.  the last thing I want his him to mark something completed on a web site and then wait until someone mysteriously in the cloud checks it off as "approved".  IMHO, that the process you want a parent to do, but not the scout.  

On 1/29/2018 at 1:57 PM, Hawkwin said:

... and eventually my son, to track his own progress and activity online ...

Ya know ...  I always pride myself on being technically current and usually ahead of the game.  In fact, that's how I make my living. 

... BUT ... I have zero interest in having my son track his advancement online.  If he wants to look and see it fine.  But as much as possible, I want them face-to-face.  They will easy enough learn computers and moving forms about.  IMHO, scouting is about that interaction.  Encouraging scouts to update data in ScoutBook defeats alot of scouting's benefit.  As long as I can, I'll encourage my son to use his paper scout handbook to track advancement.  

Please note that I as a leader and adult want everything online.  Advancement.  Leader manuals.   Trip plans.  It all makes my life easier.  But for my son and his friends, I really hope they stay with paper as long as possible.

Bigger units usually have more resources and can provide a better program.   As such, if you don't want to split, don't.  Your unit leaders helped drive the success and probably know what's best for the unit. 

BUT ... Would your pack do better having gym for say K-2 or K-3 to meet and a cafeteria for 4-5 or 3-5 to meet?  I do like the idea of keeping the pack as one pack.  If you are doing well now, don't split.   The issue is K & 1 is just too young for most things that serve 4th and 5th graders well.  And 4th and 5th graders don't want to socialize generally with K and 1.  

Could you keep one big pack that meets maybe once or twice a year at big things?  And then monthly pack meetings are age based sub groups?  

On 1/23/2018 at 9:41 PM, bsaggcmom said:

Learn to deal with interpersonal relationships in a safe monitored space. If parents step in to solve/fix their child's issues they rob their child of a lesson to learn, IMHO. At the extreme of parental stepping in a troop can be destroyed. 

"Interpersonal skills" is the number one thing scouts learn.  We can talk leadership and skills, but dealing with people is where scouts shines.  But I do love the canoe trips.    

11 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

What's frustrating to me is that the GSUSA is touting their "single-gender model" as being so superior, ...

Yeah, neither BSA or GSUSA have been fully clean.  Each behaves more like a cordial neighbor than helpful friends.  

You don't have to be a pilot, but you should have the skill and knowledge.  The key is that you are registered with BSA as a counselor.  That makes it legit.  From there, if it's an "event", you could build teams and to make sure everything is covered.  

The MB idea is "interaction".  So if it says perform or explain, usually it means person-to-person and/or actively involved.  Writing a report or fill out a workbook does not replace "perform" or "explain".  When workbooks are "REQUIRED" (... quoted because you can't require them ...) it's because the counselor wants evidence the scout did it even though the counselor doesn't have time to cover it himself.  

IMHO ... Make sure you have a registered counselor.  Make sure you have people with expertise the scouts will enjoy.  Beyond that, focus more on giving the scout a good and inspiring experience.  Worry less about the legalism except what is explicitly written.  

What about cabin tents?   Some of us like to get comfortable when long term camping. 

38 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

@WisconsinMomma ...and I am off to son#2's IEP meeting. More pushing around CYA paperwork than actual help. 

So so true.  I question the value of IEPs ... except that parents need to make sure they get listed in the IEP accomodations they want.  If it's not in the IEP, it's no where. 

22 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

... but he has an IEP at school and in a group he will sometimes stand out as being a little different.  

My apologies if this seems flippant, but I've got sons with IEPs.  I swear schools use IEPs to manage the number one disease that schools can't handle anymore:  being a boy.   

22 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

... My oldest is 13, and the other boys are probably 15 and 16 or 17.In the social skills classes 

There is huge maturity differences in those two / three years.  Jobs.  Cars.  Dating.  I'd hope those kids would want to include your son, but I can also understand their wanting their own time.  

35 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Both of the older boys are in his patrol  (about 2 years older than he is).  

SIDE DISCUSSION - Pray I don't take us off topic.  It's why I don't like mixed age patrols.  Mixed age patrols work well in many ways, but I'd rather see scouts initially grouped by age or when they join.  THEN, let them stick together or switch patrols to be with friends.  I just don't see the purpose of a patrol if a scout has to go visit other patrols when he wants to do something.  The best experiences my sons have had is when they had scouts in their patrol that were good friends because then patrol meetings actually planned things they wanted to do and the patrol actually went out together and did things.  

RECOMMENDATION - When he goes on a camp out, make sure he has a football, game, book or other that he can use to fill time and/or play with other scouts.  If they won't include him, then set him up such that other scouts want to join him.  

I started reading this thread again.  I keep twinging every time I read the rank requirements.  They are just way way too long.  Too many words.  Turns off scouts.  National really needs to focus on shortening the number of words.  It's just out of control.  The number of words in the requirements have doubled since 2005.  The words the scouts see need to be simple and straight forward.  

3 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

I also think OA has bigger identity issues to deal with.

Absolutely.  Like "Why OA?" ... It should be about more than elections and ceremonies.  

IMHO the debate on "should it be a sensitive topic" is separate.  It's too late.  There are groups waiting to pick fights.  OA members (new and old) already cringe thinking "is this in bad taste?"  "Will I be accused of being a bigot?"

I think it's best if OA drops the Indian mystic.  It can offend people and it is a sensitive topic.  Plus scouts are elected because of their example.  Inserting them into a different folklore is a distraction.  IMHO, it's best to stick to be heart of the idea.  We serve.  We help others.  We share fellowship.  The rest is a distraction.

Sadly, I do think ceremony is important.  I do think tradition is important.  

Sadly, I also think we damage our understanding the past as we separate ourselves more and more from using the past.  But so be it.  That's modern day politics.  

On 1/10/2018 at 11:54 AM, Col. Flagg said:

Can't?

I am the SM of the girls troop. You are the SM of the boys troop. We are going camping but neither of us have critical mass to go unless we go together (2-deep, # of adults, cars, etc.). *BOOM* you now have two units camping together. If mom or dad want to go along exactly how many troops are going to say no?

We don't officially have family camping now, yet many troops do it. How is having gender-separate units going to stop anyone from doing family camping?

You are right, but missed the point.  We've all identified that same work around. 

The issue is BSA is marketing a contradiction.  BSA is promoting "family" scouting, but hinted at single gender troops.  That design would be inherently a contradiction, an oxymoron and no different than today but with girl troops.  

On 1/4/2018 at 5:43 PM, NJCubScouter said:

Well, since (officially, anyway) boys and girls will be in different troops, there will not be a "family troop model."  Presumably.

I just made that connection.  I did not make the connection.  Absolutely right.  Can't have "family" focus if forcing genders to be in different troops.  

Inconsistencies are aggravating.  

4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

As to "Separate but Equal" it won;t work. 

Absolutely correct.  

Plus, BSA keeps trying to play both sides of the fence.  Sometimes charter orgs own the units.  Sometimes BSA acts as if they own the unit.  As for now, BSA is inserting itself as if BSA owned the units when it announces cub scout dens have to be single gender and troops have to be single gender.  IMHO, the charter org will work around and pretty much ignore BSA on these topics.  And, how would BSA know or enforce the issue.  ... Pack XXX will have den 9B and den 9G.  They meet at same place and have same leaders and same calendar, etc.  Troop ### and troop ###+1 will have same leaders, meet same place, etc. 

IMHO, the issues are youth protection and facilities.  IMHO, youth protection should already be there.  We've had siblings participating for years and crews have always been co-ed.  If youth protection rules need improvement, then why the rules not deficient 5 years ago ?

Like many other things, this change is best done fast.  Just get it done.  Waiting till fall 2019 for troop changes is not going to work.  

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

But then National allows council to start allowing girls January 15th if they want to AND packs meet criteria. 

We heard some about the cub early adopter program at Jan round table, but the natural follow-on is ... Well, will there be a Troop early adopter program?  Can I kick-start a girl's troop earlier than Fall 2019?  We have girls ready-to-go now waiting.  What if the venturing crew girls who are 14 want to form their own troop?  Will there be an early adopter program for them?  

2 hours ago, scoutldr said:

I have had extensive training in the field of "Risk Communication"...BSA National and local Council Executives need a crash course.  In a nutshell...1) identify your stakeholders, 2) communicate early and often, 3) tell the truth, 4) if you don't know, say you don't know., 5) get out ahead of the rumors and quash them.

Exactly.  I remember a graduate course I took on communication.  It showed the video of the CEO of an oil refinery taking a horrible beating in a press conference after his refinery polluted the local water supply.  It was ugly.  But, the guy stood up there, took the questions and did his best.  That's leadership.  And was used as an example of how to get in front of challenges.  

I agree with your points.  Communicate early and often.  Tell the truth.  Get out ahead of rumors.  ... It's human nature that people are going to debate, discuss and plan.  BSA was poorly prepared.  Three months with little info after the biggest evolution in BSA's history.  

BSA has a million members.  More should have been prepared beyond just the press release.  

11 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

If you should be frustrated with anyone, it should be with yourselves.  You are jumping the gun....

I disagree.  Hugely.  People are going to discuss, plan and make decisions.  It's 100% natural.  It's human nature.  

I think Stosh has it right in that there is probably much more going on behind the scenes than we can see.  BUT this is hardly a surprise.  Our local DE knew and hinted in August that there was an imminent announcement.  If he knew then, then it was known much longer in advance at national.  

IMHO, national should have invested in staff well in advance of Oct 11th getting stuff thought through, in-place and ready to be distributed.  BSA did not need the final product, but BSA should have had way more than a single page press announcement.  Sort of a like --->  "we might do this" ... since we have a million members, let's invest, plan details and create details and materials well in advance.  

The issue is huge.  People are going to talk and discuss and plan.  To not have a discussion at every district's Nov and Dec round table is not acceptable.  To think you can limit the agenda is a dream. 

BSA says "be prepared" and scouting teaches leadership.  From what I see, they did not prepare well and they are not leading now.  Yes they "control" the results, but they are not "leading".  There is a big difference.  

I mainly want to vent.  I've been pretty much a BSA cheerleader and wear rose color glasses.  But sometimes even I can get jaded. 

The slow roll out is killer.  Nov and Dec round tables with no discussion.  Now only some on cub scouts.  Many people asking questions and all we can say is we haven't heard anything yet.