fred johnson

I trust that you saw "without any aid".  So I kept looking ... I have not found it yet.

BSA Scouting.org - Summary of Aquadics Safety  - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss02.aspx

BSA Scouting.org - Guide To Safe Scouting - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf ... page 9.

BSA Scouting.org - 2017 Aquatic staff guide - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/2017_aquatic_%20staff_guide.pdf  ... only refers to the change of direction must happen in deep water without any push off or other aid.

... One of our crew VPs was an excellent swimmer and sailor -- freshwater. But when she did the swim test in Seabase Bahamas, the deep freaked her out ...

This is one of the reasons that I think anyone using the waterfront at camp should do the swim test at camp.  Conditions (temp, waves, fish, algea) all affect the ability to swim.  

I've never been that comfortable with troops that hand-in their "at home" swim test results.  It's also a reason the swim test is re-given relatively near the time of the events.  Time and conditions change.  Heck, I know many SMs that are Eagle Scouts that I question whether they could pass a swim test.

That is the exact text of the BSA swim test.  

 

Here is the rank requirement:

6a. Successfully complete the BSA swimmer test.

https://www.scouting.org/filestore/boyscouts/pdf/First_Class_rank_2016.pdf

 

I quoted the Safe Swimmer requirements for the BSA swimmer test.  

Yeah, that's one of the trouble with BSA.  BSA has many things documented in multiple places in slightly different ways.

"without any aids" does not exist in the key documents I've looked at.

BSA Scouting.org - "ADMINISTRATION OF SWIM CLASSIFICATION TEST" - http://www.scouting.org/filestore/outdoor%20program/aquatics/pdf/430-122.pdf

BSA Scouting.org - "Safe Swim Defense" - http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/Aquatics/safe-swim.aspx

Both give the test details and do not contain "without any aids".  

I don't doubt you found one that says "without any aids".  Where did you find yours?  

Please note ... The link you gave just says pass the swim test.  Both of the above two links describe the swim test.  

Over the years, I've grown to detest the "boy led" phrase.  It's just too overused with too little agreement on what it means.  It's often used to malign another unit or another person's efforts while trying to avoid specifics.  Too often it's just used to claim the high ground in an argument  

IMHO, you can tell parents your troop is boy led.  But then be specific as to what you would do. 

Maybe you can't use a face mask ...

Who says you can't use a face mask ?  I'm very much for learning how to swim, but there is flexibility.  IMHO, I think it's perfectly reasonable to allow a face mask.  IMHO, it's a similar allowance to allowing someone to pass the swimming test in a indoor heated clean pool.  Otherwise, it would be best to test swimming ability in murky green stagnant lake water with small fish nibbling at your leg hair on a cold windy day.  If we allow clean indoor pool water, I see the facemask as a minor accommodation.  

The sad truth is not every scout will want to stay in until they age out.  It is a magical mix of program, friendship and schedule.  At this point in his life when he's pulled every direction, I'd just try to make his life less stressful and sympathize with the decisions he has to make.  You clearly value scouting.  He may be a perfectly good young man who finds more value elsewhere.  

Curious as to whether you all consider a camporee as the troop’s monthly camp out.

It's a moot question.  The real questions are

• Do your scouts want to attend the district camporee ?
• Do your scouts want to do a different camp out ?
• Can your troop support both or need to choose one ?

District camporees are great in that they provide a structure, plan and content for a camp out.  It's a service to the troops.  And it's great if your troop wants to participate and support the district's efforts.  BUT do something else if it becomes a "been there, done that" sort of thing.  Maybe your troop wants to plan to do both the district camporee and a more significant campout.  Maybe the camporee for the younger scouts and a bigger trek for the older scouts.  

IMHO, constantly adjust to your situation.

So if the SM (unit leader) finds out this kid didn't plan and get approved the COH, ...

I'm familiar with the rest of the text.  The issue is the intention of the "challenge" is for more blatant in-your-face issues.  If "challenge" is taken to the point of referring to planning in Req #8, then it can really be applied to any individual requirement.  I'm not sure if even the "discuss" requirements can be safe.  I'd be more comfortable if the SM was challenging and said the scout never stood in front of the troop as a MC for the event.  But to say he did not "plan" is a subjective statement.  PLC approval can be as simple as the scout telling the SPL what he planned to say in the coming COH or the SPL and scout jointly deciding what is to be said.  That has the PLC effectively approve the plan.

It guts the MBC as the person who determines of requirements have been met and adds the SM as a 2nd approval.  And the SM has never meant to be an approval in the merit badge program. 

But the SM can challenge the mbc crediting of the requirement if there’s no way the scout could have done all of the requirements. Like pointed out above it’s not jus emceeing it’s planning and a bunch more so the mbc can’t give credit for the full requirement, only partially unless all the rest was done too. I think the advancement guide says how an SM can challenges an mbc. Our sm has to do that one.

That's overstepping that BSA GTA intention for a "challenge".  The intention was something blatant such as a blue card coming back from camp but the scout never attended the sessions. Or camping MB coming back, but the scout has only camped 12 nights. 

"Planning" a COH is a subjective decision.  It does not say planning all of the COH.  Or write and publish the COH program.  It is really up to the MBC to interpret the "planning".  

Great answers above.  Consistent with above is the answer in BSA Guide To Advancement answer 2017, section 7.0.0.2 About the Application for Merit Badge (“Blue Cardâ€), page 43, 2nd paragraph.  

"... Even though Scouts may benefit from reviewing requirements with a counselor before pursuing them, a boy may begin working on a merit badge at any time after he is registered. It is the counselor’s decision whether to accept work or activities completed prior to the issuing of the signed blue card. Common sense should prevail, however. For example, nights already camped as a Boy Scout, or coins or stamps already collected, would count toward their respective badges."

"Registered" means registering as a Boy Scout.  That is repeated and clarified elsewhere. 

I like referring to the camping MB that requires 20 nights.  It is not reasonable to expect the scout to contact the MB counselor in year 5 of his scout journey and then expect another new set of 20 nights.

But on the other hand for communications, I could see a counselor trying to teach / communicate skills that the scout might not have.  If the scout is not at that capability level yet when he MC'ed the COH, the counselor could ask for a more current COH.  Example, if the scout is the MC of a COH at 10.5 years old and the troop is brand new.  Perhaps, the scout might not have had the experience or capability at that age to be an "MC".  Instead, he was the body in front of people.

Essentially ... "up to the counselor".

... Just try to frame it in your mind that he is "being helpful".  ...

I fully agree.  Find a way to use it to make your life easier.  

My experience in scouts and in life is that no one is perfect.  Every person will start annoying another person at some point.  

As for scouts, I've only survived because I've learned to let a lot bounce off me.  Scouting collects more than it's share of quirky people ... or highly inspired people ... or motivated people ... or in-your-face people ... or people that feel their way is their way is the only way.

If you can find a way to let it bounce off you, you will be way way better off.  

... wow ... 29 pages ... wow ... that's way, way past my pain limit to read. ... is this like some record?

Modeling the behavior is the most important thing we can do.  

• If we say the SPL is in charge, do we really step back to become less and to stand in the shadows so that the SPL is the focal point?  Or, do we constantly interject comments interrupting the SPL as the focal point?
• If we say a scout his helpful and friendly, do we constantly look for ways to to be friendly and to help?  Or do we sit down and grumble as someone else is struggling to setup their tent or to pack up their gear?  

Your comments seem reasonable and well said.  

I am finally allowing my son to quit Scouts. We tried everything but in the end, it just isn't a good fit for him. He finished with a rank of Scout after just one year in the Troop.

 

There are a couple reasons it didn't work out. He enjoyed the Cub Scouts but the Boy Scouts is a really different animal. I offer the following observations as a post-mortem, with follow up questions at the bottom.

 

1. He crossed over early (Webelos in 1 year) This wasn't my choice but the den leader's. He wasn't ready for the skills needed in Boy Scouts. I think BSA should actively discourage this except with a waiver in special cases.

 

It is very hard to sychronize when to cross boys over.  Some will quit if you wait too long.  IMHO, it should be about making it interesting and having a driving reason to continue.  IMHO, that could be done on either side.  It sounds like it was done on neither side.

 

2. Most of his friends quit, as of this writing there is only 1 out of 6 members of his den that are still in the Troop. From adults that were in Scouts, I have been told most boys stay in because their friends did.

 

Yeah.  Usually there is a pattern.  If 10 join, usually 8 of 10 stay or 2 of 10 stay.  

 

3. The Troop is actively focused on the older boys. Most activities planned include things like 50-mile hikes and 100-mile canoe trips. Usually there is a shorter event for the younger boys thrown in as a courtesy. I would have liked to see one adult assigned to help make the new Scouts feel more welcome and included. The Cooking Badge was offered as a group activity and my son was told he was too young. Just the older boys wanting to get their Eagle stuff done.

 

I've seen this too.  It's usually because troop leaders are parents of the boys.  And the program becomes imbalanced as their sons mature.   IMHO, there needs to be interesting, fun and learning for all ages.   

 

4. There isn't enough supervision. The leaders take "boy-led" too far, and the older boys don't act as mentors many times but as antagonists and task masters. They don't know how to organize a meeting because the adults haven't shown them. Older boys are cursing and "roasting" younger kids because the adults are doing their own thing and not paying attention. Is there any problem with assigning an adult to each patrol to make sure they stay on track and are obeying the Scout Law?

 

IMHO, too many of us get used to the "right" way of doing things instead of constantly adjusting to the situation and the current mix of scouts.  IMHO, it sounds like there was too little adjustment for scouts that have poor habits and/or no interest to be examples to the younger scouts.

 

5. Meetings are BORING. Most of the time they're just sitting around tying knots or talking about the next campout. Cub Scout meetings were much more dynamic and included games and songs and actual advancement activities. Again, adults should have more input here.

 

Common comment.

 

6. Time commitment. Meetings 7-8:30 pm on a school night EVERY Monday, and at least two weekends a month, one for a campout and another for volunteer or Eagle Project work.

 

Yeah.  I don't know why troop meetings need to be every Monday other than that's how it was decades ago.  IMHO, it's nice to have a break now and and then.  

 

7. Camping. My son just didn't like camping. Yes, I get that it's the entire point of Boy Scouts. I don't want to take that away from anyone. But, I would have liked to see something like STEM activities, day trips, or just fun things like a trip to the trampoline park.  In the end, his dislike of being outdoors in general ended his Scouting career.

 

Is it really dislike of outdoors?  Or is it just not the right mix for him?  This could be a reflection of the troop program did not match what he is interested in.

 

So, I'm not looking for solutions or analysis on my own child but curious about the greater trend. I still think the program has many strengths, but I'm interested if retention is a problem at the troop level. About what age are they leaving? What reasons are those boys giving for leaving? And what is the secret of troops that don't have a problem retaining scouts?

IMHO, the secret is to get the scouts to treat it as their "club".  Their home.  Their gang ... all be it a polite well manor'ed gang.    Do things that grow their skills and responsibilities, but make it grow their friendships and fun.

... we have no 'official' treasurer.  ...

You always have a treasurer.  You just might not know it.  Who carries the checkbook?  Who makes deposits?  Maybe it's shared, but someone is always responsible to coordinate the money.

If your troop may be so small that you don't have a bank account, then who carries the envelop with cash for the next event?  

I would suggest that you encourage the youth (and parent) to start weekly swim lessons and continue them until he can confidently pass the Second and First Class Swim requirements.  Those classes could save his life.

Jameson76 wrote:  "Remember what they said in All the Presidents Man...Follow the money "

I absolutely believe that's true, but it's an incomplete insight.  BSA has a large structure of camps, staff and other resources.  If membership drops continue, we need to sell / divest many prized resources that make scouting scouting.  We see it all the time.  I think about my own counsel.  I'm amazed they have not been forced to sell a camp yet even though membership is way down compared to 1999, pre BSA-v-Dale.  

To stabilize or increase membership, BSA needs to keep relevant to the times.  An organization for boys only looks like a relic from the past.  Out of date and out of touch.  T

his is a chance for renewal.  Yes, it's absolutely about money.  But it's about way more than that too.

It seems like there is a pretty solid consensus here that you all are keeping your registered leaders to a minimum.....

 

I agree this is a best practice, but it's for more than one reason.  Yes, I absolutely don't want to waste scout's money registering 30 adults.  But, I would definitely register the advancement chair and the treasurer ... especially in a large troop.  

IMHO, the bigger reason to minimize the adults registered is focusing on the goal of boys working with boys.  When adults are registered, they are empowered (rightly or wrongly) to work with scouts.  "Hey, look !  I've got an official title and registration...."  But that doesn't mean it's good to have lots and lots of adults working with youth.  

IMHO, even in a large troop, you need a SM and maybe a select number of ASMs, who are synchronized with SM's ideas and plans.   Beyond that, too many adults damage the experience for the youth.  

Who is required to be chartered (outside of the required positions)?

• Isn't this an oxymoron ? 

What is the difference between a registered and non-registered leader?

• Background check 
• Visibility as being a registered leader

What benefits do registered leaders receive?

• You get a magazine.

Your points are good though.  As registration fees have kept going up, we've trimmed our registered leaders to those that have direct interaction or financial interest in the troop (treasurer).  Beyond that, we don't need to register everyone who takes the slightest responsibility.  If anything, asking adults to pay their own registration helps trim the extra growth of too many adults.  

In our troop, we have one SM and one ASM.  We have the minimum committee size too even though more appear at the meetinsg.  For us though, it's a cost thing.  

I don't mind merit badges being taught at district camporees.  I'd just like to see that there is something else for those not interested or who already have the badge.  Otherwise, attending the camporee becomes a statement of signing up for a merit badge course.  I know I had scouts not sign up because our troop did a campout near a facility that offered the badge.  It was a great opportunity and a great experience.  But it left the scouts two years later with no reason to attend.

and

What I find interesting is that these are some of the very same traits we want for our girls as they grow up to become women (and nothing @@fred johnson or @@Tampa Turtle have posted implies that they would disagree with this).

 

So when many people talk about "turning boys into men" what they really mean is "helping male children grow up to be adults of good character".

I agree.  I have no problem with girls joining scouts.  I think it's part of keeping the program current and helping our scouts be citizens in a modern society.  And, most of the lessons taught by scouts is gender neutral.  

With that said, I do often think of scouts as a way to help my boys mature and become strong, capable men.  Heck, I've had kids in our troop that fell apart on simple camp outs, but were stars on their football team.  Stars on the sports field, but unable to handle spiders, rain and the dark.  They were able to shine in their expertise, but unable to adapt to adversity.  

I will preface this by stating I speak for me and me alone.

Me too.  The following is my private thoughts and not really trying to push a "standard".  

I want my boys to be comfortable being manly in a society that often diminishes those traits.  Strong.  Proud.  Capable.  Action oriented.  Standing tall.  Not complaining, whining or gossiping.  Not prone to tears when someone challenges them.  Not automatically depending on help in hard situations.  I want my sons to develop the best traits that we see in John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Jimmy Stewart, Gary Cooper, etc.  I'd like them to be comfortable in hard situations.  

At the same time, I want my sons polite, sensitive and caring of others.  Also, I don't want them embarrassed by tears or emotions.  I don't think those are mutually exclusive.  

I see scouts to be very compatible with these goals.  The scouting program provides many challenging situations that scouts can learn to just handle and to get through.  For example when we have a major storm in camp and everything gets wet, we don't dry the scouts clothes and sleeping bags.  Instead, the leaders goal is to grow the scouts so they get themselves through the situation.  How to stay warm.  How to get things dried.  How to get through the night.  There is no need to wait for a parent / adult to rescue the scout unless there is a real danger. 

To be honest, I see 25% of the scouting value coming from patrol method and all the other hot button debates.  I find the vast majority scouting's value to come from the scouts learning to overcome adversity and our not rescuing them everytime they are challenged.  Heck, even learning to sleep in a tent with a spider or use a less-than-ideal outhouse is  maturing experience.

Here's the problem that I see, as I'm not opposed to letting girls into Cub Scout, it's a problem of logistics.  Our CO is a civic club and we meet in their building.  We have 45 boys and we are bursting at the seams of what our building can accommodate. So, where do we put the girls who join?  We physically don't have the space to add more kids.  

Let's say this whole change is successful and I really really hope it is. 

IMHO, KYScouter reflected the biggest challenge.  As numbers have dropped for the last 15 years, packs have closed or merged.  Packs have started recruiting from multiple schools.  Successful packs will become too large to manage or too large to meet where they've been meeting.

IMHO, this is the biggest challenge.  If we got a 10% to 20% cub membership increase, it could be probably absorbed.  But if we get a 25% to 50% increase in new cubs, it would require creating new packs, finding new leaders and finding new places to meet.  That would be a good challenge though.  

Right now we have almost a 2:1 ratio of scouts to adults wanting to go. 

That's way too much.  It subverts the whole premise of how scouts works.  Our best summer camps have been when our adult ratio is 1:10 or 1:15.  The camp requirement was 2 adults.  

Another way to solve this is to get a 2nd camp site at the camp significantly away from the scouts.  Say three minute walk or at least 600 feet away.  All adults camp there except top two lead adults.