fred johnson

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Call it what you want, linked troops will be coed units.  But that has obviously been the plan all along.  The dishonesty and doublespeak is just atrocious.

The whole one committee has 2 troops is again (as with most of this rollout) just a statement made in a world of fantasy.  Most troops have enough trouble getting a committee together to actually meet for 1 unit, much less 2 units.

Such a mixed message and really poor messaging.  As has been stated, the CSE and BSA National is plunging ahead like they have never seen an actual unit function in the real world...with real volunteers...and real actual parents.  There is likely little credence to the statements that CO and troops can elect to remain single gender.  No doubt that will change in short order.

BSA National...just be honest with what you are planning.

I understand what you are saying, but it's not about poor messaging or creating a program that won't be followed.  

The "linked troop" concept was created to dance a fine line alientating as few as possible.  This "linked troop" concept is transitional and will fade out over the next 5 to 20 years, after the contention and stress over this huge change has gone away.  

2 hours ago, Cambridgeskip said:

The USA is one of the most diverse countries on the planet. Any solution had to allow for staying strictly same sex or allowing things to blur because of that diversity. And yes I can see that in practice those that want to will blur it. They are treading an extremely thin tight rope and I think this is as good a solution as any.

Fully agree.  Well said.  

5 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

I don't think that should be a huge thing, as it is a one-time transitional thing.

Agreed.  Not a huge thing.  I thought I heard about 5th grade girls signing up for pack that are early adopters.  Not sure what happened there.  

5 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

It looks like Troops start Feb 2019.  That should be early enough for most 4th Grade girls.  5th graders were not supposed to join but I’m not sure how well that was enforced.  If they exist they’ll have to wait after this summer when they age out of Cub Scouts.

Theoretically, a 4th grade girl could join a pack that is an early adopter right now.  Then during the summer earn Arrow of Light and then be ready to cross over this fall, up to four months earlier than Feb 2019.

Interesting ... I'd still like to learn more about dates.  I heard when cub scouts was rolled out there was nothing preventing 4th and 5th grade girls from joining cub scouts.  As such, they need a troop to cross over before the deadline.  

4 hours ago, eaglequestions2018 said:

...  since I will only have just over a month to get this done with a little built-in buffer time, due to the date of the election itself.

When is the election?  You said you have a little over a month.  Is that to the election or to an earlier date?  IMHO, a voter guide is useful when it is weeks or a month or more before the election.  As such, I would not want to use the election as the due date.  IMHO, it should be weeks before as as due date.  

If I was approving your project, I'd be looking at 

• Will you be successful?
• Will you have a good experience?
• Will you meet the expectations to "develop, plan and lead" a project?

View your proposal as an agreement.  Only put in as much as you need to clearly communicate.  It is not a plan.  But you do need to be specific.  I'd want to see your proposal say something like "I will be leading a team to produce a voter registration guide, host a pre-election debate and coordinate a voter registration drive."

As part of reviewing your proposal, I'd be looking for you to demonstrate your understanding of your project and how you will successfully make this happen.  Here are some random comments

• Usually an existing civic organization or newspaper holds debates.  Usually those take a long time to put in place.  If you have just over a month, can you make this happen?  Which position?  One debate for all positions on the ballot or individual debate times for each?  Where will it be held?  Can you reserve the space, advertise the debate and get the summary results out in a timely way?  I'd be concerned you just can't make a quality well structured debate happen in less than a month.  If I was a candidate, I'd really hesitate committing to something quickly thrown together.  
• You don't have to have the city be your beneficiary.  You could have a local non-profit.  Chamber of commerce.  Elks club.  Rotary.  Lions club.  League of Women voters.  You could even have a newspaper be a beneficiary as long as the benefit goes to the community and not the paper.  
• How do you measure success?  

Direct to the requirements ... To get the proposal approved ... communicate the following

• What concepts are you developing into a project?
• How will you plan each part?
• How will you lead others in doing it?  Where are the volunteers?  How can you leverage others to help execute the project?

If he did the work, yes.  The requirements for Eagle are really not that huge.  A gung-ho kid can knock them out if desired fairly quick.  

The key is we mentor youth through our interactions and guidance.  But as for rank, that is a standard defined by BSA that is fairly clear.  If the scout has done the project as approved in the proposal, it gets signed.  If he has the other rank items complete, then can has earned a right to complete his Eagle rank.  It might be worth a good discussion on what happened.  Beyond that, it's his advancement, not ours.  

6 minutes ago, krikkitbot said:

Ok, so how is this scenario? 

1- Be active in your troop^[2] for at least six months as a Life Scout.

4- While a Life Scout, serve actively in your troop^[2] for six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility:

• Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, webmaster, or outdoor ethics guide.^[3]

 

Scout fast tracks to Life by 13 1/2. Becomes the librarian with minimal responsibilities. at 14 he stops showing up. He is asked to come back and is not interested. At 17.9 he shows up with a stack of blue cards signed by actual MB counselors. He asks to present an Eagle Project to the board and finish his Eagle rank. 

 

He was active 6 months as a Life Scout. He served for 6 months in a position of leadership. Is he an Eagle scout?

Yes.  As much as anyone else.  You might not like his path, but yes he is and he has every right to use the rank name.

I'd be tempted to approach it from the other side.  I'd tell him that Eagle means a lot to people because it means a lot to people.  If you are chasing Eagle to fill out an application, then it probably doesn't mean much to you as an accomplishment in and of itself.  I'd suggest to him to chase accomplishments that mean something to him.  If this one doesn't, then he will be wasting his time and energy to earn something that is an empty accomplishment.  

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Hard to understand parents who shop around for the best school, teachers, doctors, tutors, coaches ...would think Boy Scouts is the same everywhere.  But when I ask, they remind me we are a national organization , wear the same uniform,  same handbooks, same Oath and Law,... Well yes, but all scouting is local, too late.

My $0.02

This is a totally different discussion that can go on a long long time.  ... I think people should be able to choose, but I don't think parents and scouts know what to look for when shopping.  From what I've seen there is a dynamic between what is a good troop and what looks good.  Also, there is an issue of cities with many troops and a few grow to be mega troops and the others starve and look like pale images.  It's unhealthy for a troop to be really large and to be starving for members.  IMHO, the current troop shopping model does NOT work.  ... but a different thread. 

8 hours ago, gblotter said:

Many of us are very experienced and we can all learn from each other - I'm fine with that. However, I do tire of the attitude that true Scouting is only experienced by the few who have that secret decoder ring to unlock Bill Hillcourt's secrets of boy leadership. We all stand on the shoulders of giants, but Scouting is not that hard. We sometimes make it harder than it needs to be by endlessly reminding others that in spite of best efforts - nope, you're still not doing it right. Dare I say there is some virtue signaling in all this?

So so true.  This is the same for why I cringe with certain phrases such as boy led.  It's almost always not constructive and used more as a knock against others.  IMHO, we should all stop saying who's boy led and who's not boy led.  Be specific and identify behaviors and habits that help.  Identify good practices.  

14 hours ago, DarleneBBB said:

How does your troop run?  Do boys do planning?

I hate the term "boy led" because it's too often used as an absolute "We're Boy Led !!" and quickly followed with a slight or knock against other troops or other leaders.  Using the term "Boy Led" seems to lower scouter debates to almost a base level at times.  IMHO, this happens so much that I'd almost like to see the term gone. 

I love the term "boy led" because it's an idea, great for training and creating a quick image.  But keep it to training and as an ideal  It's an end-goal that is not achievable, but that we should continually strive for as mentors to our youth.  It's in working toward that goal of "boy led" that we see growth in our scouts.  

I say that it's not achievable because

• Youth leaders are chosen by other youth.  It's an intentionally imperfect process.  
• Youth leaders are not chosen because they already have perfected leadership skills, but rather so they can learn and grow those skills.

Adult leaders ... (perhaps another term that should be re-placed ... Mentor?  Coach?) ... is to continually look for the next small opportunity to help our scouts develop their skills, character  and confidence.  So we as adult leaders need to help the troop succeed enough (being active, camping, etc) so that the scouts have a great time, build friendships and keep coming.  But at the same time we back down quickly so the scouts learn and grow.  

How does our troop run?  ... Mixed.  When ever possible, we try to help the scouts realize this is their experience, not ours.  Anytime they show leadership or ownership, we try to quickly step back and become silent.  We try to avoid interjecting even just a little if the scouts are showing ownership and energy.  It yields imperfect, but always interesting results. 

Do boys do planning?  ... This is where our troop shines.  I've always been proud of our scoutmaster as he would meet with the SPL (and the SPL's dad) the night before and coach the SPL through the planning session.  The SPL would fully run the planning session and the SM would sit off in the corner and only interject if asked.  It's not always been exactly the same, but it started with a review of the past year, then laying out new goals (voting on them to choose), then laying out ideas for camps and activities (then voting on them to choose), then laying out the calendar in detail.  Usually, the SM and SPL would have already marked up the base calendar with holidays, special school dates, elections, troop mtgs, PLC meetings, etc, district camp dates (so the troop knows the dates), OA dates.  Sometimes those dates would be kept and sometimes the troop would choose to change the dates.  ... By the time the scouts are done, we have calendar for 18 months out.   And between each session was food and games.  Sometimes a team building game.  ... Best planning sessions were done as a planning camp out.  ... Usually anyone in the troop was invited to attend, but the active talkers were the PLC official members.  Often we'd get half the troop as the scouts had fun doing the planning.  The SPL would encourage people to feed comments through the PL.  Never worked perfect, but it worked enough.  

My opinion is the SPL grew significant skills and confidence through their first planning session.  The prep and the confidence leading it really helped them become stronger leaders.

Great article.  I've seen another recently that I thought was timely and good.  

• https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/opinion/boys-violence-shootings-guns.html

I think scouts is the perfect environment to address many of the challenges our scouts face.  BSA is going co-ed, but that does not mean we have to dumb down or emasculate the program.  IMHO, keep the challenge and keep the out door focus.  Use that to define character through each individual's own crucible.  

Older scouts have a great opportunity to make their own fun and create their own program.  I like Qwazse's ideas.  But in addition ...

• When the camp offer's a challenge ... like create a camp fire skit ... or troop to earn the most points ... XXXX ... go whole hog on it.  In focusing on the best skit or most points or ... you will be creating a great experience for yourself and others.  ... BUT DO IT WITH FUN AND A SMILE ON YOUR FACE !!!!    And if you don't win, who cares.  It was doing the stuff and obsessing on how to win that you create fun for each other.  
• Take a nap.  It's a lot of fun to be at a busy camp and decide ... ya know, I'm going to take a nap.     Then you are refreshed for the next thing.

Being a senior scout or experienced scouter, takes the stress off ya.  You don't have to earn or do anything.  You get to choose.  That's cool.

10 hours ago, MattR said:

... Remove all the describe and discuss stuff. Assume that if the scout is interested then some day he'll go and read about the describe and discuss stuff on his own when he's mature enough. In the meantime just do more. Rather than talk about the food pyramid in cooking MB, cook an omelet, cook soup from scratch, cook pancakes from scratch, cook stir fry from scratch, cook bread from scratch, and cook brownies from scratch. i.e., the cooking MB should involve a lot of cooking and eating good food. Period. That's what the scout will remember. If he has fun doing it then he will seek out more on his own. That's what will get him hooked on it. ...

 

I fully agree.  Drop any of the describe and discuss stuff.

• The passive requirements add the "boring" and introduce advancement abuse.  Plus, they were bored to tears when it was lecture, etc.
• The discuss and describe should happen naturally while the MBC works with or talks with the scout about how the omelet was cooked or why the soup needed chicken bullion stock.  My sons enjoyed, learned from and wanted to do more.  They enjoyed the "active" merit badges.  Canoe trips.  Camping.  Photographing.  Wood working.  Golfing. 
• IMHO, boys (and girls) scream to do things.  To get out of their comfort zone and have new experience and learn new skills.  They spend year after year sitting in classrooms reading and listening to lectures.   

The other aspect is the quality of the MBCs.  MBCs should have real expertise.

• My sons and scouts enjoyed working with MBCs that knew what they were talking about and were experts in their fields.  
• My sons left MB sessions that were run by generic bodies who signed up to lead the MBC but were not experts.  I remember my sons feeling cheated when they did a MB class that was run by someone that essentially was just reading what was described in the book ... while at the same time the Oceanography session was run two people who were experts.  One was a professional oceanographer.  The other was a navy officer (who if I remember right had time on submarines and on Navy research vessels).

Well done MBs and advancement is very meaningful to the scouts.  The challenge is every scout is not interested in every MB needed for advancement.  

IMHO, the advancement program should be changed to something that is meaningful and interesting to the scouts.  Keep the challenge and growth factors.  Maybe the SM and scout should work together to create a more personalized advancement itinerary.  Maybe each time a rank is complete, the SM and scout could work to find a reasonable path for advancement to the next rank.  

I think the problem would be implementing a program that is fair and evenly applied.  

12 hours ago, swilliams said:

Is there a thread on this forum about the details of using Scoutbook?  

Yes.  In scoutbook, the forums contain the info and the documentation.  It is far from an ideal, practical or good situation.  But it is what it is.  You can search and find stuff.

A TRICK you should know about ... Some commentators in the forum have an icon for "ScoutBook user Advisory Council.".  If you click that patch, it takes you to this set of four page ... where all the documentation exists. 

https://www.scoutbook.com/mobile/forums/using-scoutbook/86040/suac-scoutbook-faq-and-resources-table-of-contents/

BSA recently addressed situations like this.  First of all, I assume the issue is in the "proposal" as the plan is not approved.

BSA wrote Nov-Dec 2017 Advancement News an article about "Jumping The Gun".   https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/advancement_news/2017_Nov-Dec.pdf

A few key statements...

• Proposal approval is to be a "benefit" to the scout to avoid later issues.  It is not meant as a legalistic hoop to jump through.
• Completing project without prior approval is counter to project requirements.  
• BSA also wrote ...
  • "However, if circumstances are compelling, the proposal or project can be approved after the fact if (1) it appears that the project was well led, (2) completed to the beneficiary's satisfaction, and (3) would probably have been approved in advance if the Scout had followed proper procedures."
  • "When considering which of these options is appropriate in a specific case, everyone involved in the decision should keep in mind that write-ups and signatures, though important, are simply supportive. It is the project that we require. Ultimately, it is up to the Scout's board of review to determine if the project itself met the requirement. Boards of review should use common sense when reviewing the following: Did the project meet the requirements or not? Was there planning and development? Was there leadership of others?

This is consistent with BSA Guide To Advancement 2017, PDF page 70.

• "From time to time Scouts will “jump the gun” and begin fundraising efforts—or even work on the project itself— before a proposal is approved. This is counter to the requirements and well covered in multiple documents, but still it happens. Normally then, a Scout should select a different project. If circumstances are compelling, however—indicating leniency can be extended and a lesson learned without significant detriment to fulfilling the project’s purpose—the Scout may be allowed to carry on and have his proposal or project approved after the fact."

With all that said from BSA and their advancement team, it's all really just confusing.  But EBORs have discretion and scouts can advance even without pre-approval of their Eagle project.

So in another words, talk to the district advancement team.  Let them know what's going on.  Let them know about BSA's clarification.  See what can be done.  Support the scout as appropriate to the situation.

How about redesigning venturing into a young adult program?  Overlap it with college ages.  Overlap it with college service fraternities.  Put certain boundaries on it (no drinking, etc).  It's about service and adventure.  

I often think about this as we had multiple scouts age out and become 18-20.  They hang around in a pseudo fashion.  They just don't have the time and commitment to become a fully trained and committed ASM, but they are not really a youth either.  It would be nice to have a program to serve them.  And, I'd be okay calling it Scouting Young Adults.  Gotta check the acronym though.    SYA?  A too close to CYA.     Also sounds like something Patty Hearst would join.

11 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

... a discussion with your CO ...

I agree.  It has to happen.  But it's also interesting how the CC is often treated as absent and then critical again.  Most CO's just have no clue what their units are doing day by day or year by year. 

For example, I think most COs would be less concerned about including girls and more concerned on whether you are conducting safe camping trips and meaningful events and if you represent the CO well.  But if they really don't ask those questions, I'm not sure you will get useful input from the CO on including girls.  If anything, you could be asking for more trouble than it's worth.  

But it's still a discussion that should happen.

11 minutes ago, Col. Flagg said:

I think the Eagle Coach and unit/district leaders did this Scout a disservice approving a project ... 

I tend to agree.  But at the same time, it is explicitly intended and stated that scouts are given wide latitude in what type of project is acceptable.  We don't to put too many limits on the scout or the country will be buried under the weight of a million picnic tables.  

From what I've seen, the projects that do have trouble at their eagle board of review are as above.  The scout heavily depends on one person or an external resource or essentially gives up control of their project.  

Perhaps that should be an evaluation criteria?  Will the scout be in control of his own project?  Will the scout have the understanding and involvement such that he's influencing the detailed execution of the project.   If he's not, it could be argued it's not his project or that he's just contracting out the project.  We just don't want that.

A few random comments

• Inch thick workbook - there is no need for a thick workbook.  That is why the workbook was re-designed in 2011.  The redesign was to move the focus from paperwork to execution.  From paperwork to doing.  These days you just don't need an inch thick workbook.  In fact, it's a sign of heavy handed troops.  Or of families that had older sons that did eagle projects before the 2011 redesign.
• It's 100% okay to do pre-work.  The scout has the option to do lots of work or just a little   The requirement is to plan, develop and lead a project.  As long as he shows leadership of others, he can do lots on the project if he wants.  Or he can be the overseer and just direct.  There is no right or wrong here as long as he develops, plans and leads.

From what I get here is ... a well meaning adult said he'd help ... then that offer grew to be disproportionate with what was originally intended.  IMHO, the adult should simply state his feelings with the scout.  It's the scout's project.  The scout should handle things like this.  And a volunteer should be comfortable saying things like that.  

1 hour ago, EmberMike said:

We're an organization that suppressed abuse claims for decades, ...

Your view is not the same as mine.  I won't argue BSA is perfect, but BSA had a tracking system in place for decades before the public acknowledged or knew about abuse.  BSA staff worked to document and track / record.  It wasn't perfect, but from what I've seen it was far ahead of what was being done in schools and communities at the same time.  If anything, it's BSA's own keeping documents that caused trouble.  It would have been better served if it shredded the documents after a 20 years.  

4 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

  Just fully expecting that operational realities will trump the theory.

Absolutely.  Reality trumps rules ... ewww ... somehow I just don't feel right these days using the verb "trump".

Just now, ParkMan said:

I'm sure it's just a matter of time.  My guess is the most everyone will ignore it anyways.  If I recall correctly, there's reporting of who is in which den during recharter - so it seems easy to forget about.

Not den.  Rank.  During recharter you make sure everyone is in the correct rank.  BSA has no idea who's in which den.